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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado   You are logged in as Guest
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devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to kitarist

quote:

EDIT: Here' something that may be of interest - I noticed that he does anchoring with the 'a' finger during the run - Once it's played, the 'a' finger stays on the string it just rested on "waiting" for the 'm' and 'i' to finish their strokes and rest on the same string, and only then it's reset. Not much of an 'a' reset too - hardly lifts it, more of a dragging stroke to the next string up (I've only seen descending scales)

As Oscar Herrero suggested I already integrated IA, MA and AMI picado to my practice routine. I don't know where it will lead. I think what this guy is doing works only for him.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2020 17:02:45
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

3 note per string, or any repeating note pattern per string, reduces the complexity of the right hand sequence, so it aids in speed. Most of the time you have a hiccup in a fast line, it’s Right where you have a break in the right hand pattern.

I wonder if all these super fast picado guys use only 3 note per string patterns for their picado runs.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2020 17:28:02
 
kitarist

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I already integrated IA, MA and AMI picado to my practice routine. I don't know where it will lead.


It has spillover benefits. For example, practicing MA alternation would likely improve your pimami arpeggio speed and control.

AMI picado practice seems to improve the IM picado speed and control, as Ricardo mentioned recently.

IA practice probably helps with improving the A rest stroke and reducing the unproductive tension in A in general since with MA it is a bit more complex to tease out that tension because of the tendon interconnections between M and A. This last one I mention because usually A rest stroke is the least practiced finger stroke.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2020 18:59:13
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to kitarist

quote:

IA practice probably helps with improving the A rest stroke and reducing the unproductive tension in A in general since with MA it is a bit more complex to tease out that tension because of the tendon interconnections between M and A. This last one I mention because usually A rest stroke is the least practiced finger stroke.

IA picado works fine. Still not as fast as IM. Somehow I have a feeling it can be even as fast as IM after proper exercises. I don't like IA picado though because my middle finger sticks out clearly.

As for the A rest stroke, I like how she chooses the optimal right hand position in this video at 0:47-2:00.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2020 18:00:13
 
kitarist

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I like how she chooses the optimal right hand position in this video at 0:47-2:00.


Starting at 0:14, this seems wrong to me:



Entire weight on the edge is what I had to unlearn, both for reasons of comfort (it is a lot of weight in my case) and to be able to lift my elbow and be much more fluid with the position as the piece demands. I'd also say the comfort of it is related to how much the guitar is tilted so the guitarist can see the fretboard from above rather than just from the side (i.e. the top of guitar toward the body). Classical people tend to have that tilt, resulting on the right arm sitting more on the top itself rather than right on the edge. With flamenco, I find there is virtually no tilt that way, so the weight would land straight on that edge and be much more uncomfortable.

So overall, I am pretty sure that piece of advice there is wrong, both in classical and especially in flamenco context - even if just understood for beginners. I'd immediately qualify it as "initial" or "tentative" and say something about learning later on not to rely on the bout/edge for support.

As for the A rest stroke tip, it is a cool 'rule of thumb', but insufficient. I'd say exactly the same tip can be applied, in that position, to M on B string, or I on G string (i.e. it is not special to A). Also again, classical people with that static positioning - "basic arpeggio position". I'll therefore say something like "note also the finger placement in relation to the string itself", à la Scott Tennant - in that way it does not rely on a particular finger or arpeggio position.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2020 18:06:14
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2020 19:26:36
 
Ricardo

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

IA practice probably helps with improving the A rest stroke and reducing the unproductive tension in A in general since with MA it is a bit more complex to tease out that tension because of the tendon interconnections between M and A. This last one I mention because usually A rest stroke is the least practiced finger stroke.

IA picado works fine. Still not as fast as IM. Somehow I have a feeling it can be even as fast as IM after proper exercises. I don't like IA picado though because my middle finger sticks out clearly.

As for the A rest stroke, I like how she chooses the optimal right hand position in this video at 0:47-2:00.




This is obviously for super beginner classical players. You can learn the correct way to play on a ukelele. Forget the arm, it’s about the fingers and the way they prepare and attack the strings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2020 16:06:38
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

This is obviously for super beginner classical players. You can learn the correct way to play on a ukelele. Forget the arm, it’s about the fingers and the way they prepare and attack the strings.

What she recommends at 0:47-2:00 reminded me of what you wrote in another thread. So I thought it was a clever way of testing the correct hand position.

quote:

Paco de lucia granaina he also used flexed tip for the ring finger during ami so ring finger only could do apoyando while m and i were free stroke. It seemed it was a special case as he never used for other ami passages.
3:31 and 5:07




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2020 19:24:03
 
Auda

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

3 note per string, or any repeating note pattern per string, reduces the complexity of the right hand sequence, so it aids in speed. Most of the time you have a hiccup in a fast line, it’s Right where you have a break in the right hand pattern.


For me this then complicates the left hand fingering. Sort of like robbing Peter to pay Paul. I believe the right hand can play continuously ami despite the number of notes per string. For me I can play a bit faster with 3 fingers but the articulation requires more effort. I think it is a bit of cheat also.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2020 21:05:46
 
Ricardo

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Auda

quote:

For me this then complicates the left hand fingering.


It can handle it...in my case 2x. When flow in the right hand breaks, the music also breaks.

Anyway simplest thing you can do left hand fingering wise is hold a chord. Now play play each note of the chord in sequence as a fast PICADO. Pretty easy? No it’s not. Try repeating each note 2x before moving to the next string... then try playing each note 3x. Maybe you can see the logic?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2020 7:32:06
 
Auda

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

It can handle it...in my case 2x. When flow in the right hand breaks, the music also breaks.

Anyway simplest thing you can do left hand fingering wise is hold a chord. Now play play each note of the chord in sequence as a fast PICADO. Pretty easy? No it’s not. Try repeating each note 2x before moving to the next string... then try playing each note 3x. Maybe you can see the logic?


As I said, it is my belief ami can be done continuously w/o having to have 3 notes or multiples thereof. For me, as an example, the scale fingering in the Baranov video is configured to play 3 or 3x notes per string but it seems to be a bit odd. I tried it a while back but did not like it. I do, at times, practice the chromatic scale up to the 4th fret using ami continuously. Once I was able to get that down I can now use a continuous ami on all scales w/o much effort. I broke down the chromatic scale into 3s and after a while I was able to do it w/o any pauses and then at speed. I am pretty sure most anybody can do it.

Not sure of your chord example since I am not aware of any picado runs that make much use of them. I agree, when the R.H. breaks there goes the music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 20:12:56
 
kitarist

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Auda

quote:

after a while I was able to do it w/o any pauses and then at speed


What's "at speed"? Let's say in terms of 4 notes per click/metronome beat, what metronome BPM would that be?

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 20:41:05
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

Does anyone know how fast Paco's picado is? I mean how many BPM.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 21:13:54
 
amigo

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to devilhand

As Paco says in documentary "I can play any scale as fast as I want" So, in Siroco album, piece "minera", he plays 240bpm (maybe even faster)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 21:50:59
 
Ricardo

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to amigo

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=301660&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=cepero%2Ccerreduela&tmode=&smode=&s=#302209

For the record I slowed down cerreduela finally. He plays a seven note figure on each string at 120bpm. That’s 14 notes a second, not 16. I think Cepero is top speed, followed by banderas, and Then PDL and the rest about the same level.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 17:21:51
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to amigo

quote:

As Paco says in documentary "I can play any scale as fast as I want" So, in Siroco album, piece "minera", he plays 240bpm (maybe even faster)

It can't be 240 because these days I practice rasgueado and abanico at this rate, which is not challenging anymore. I just heard it again on youtube. It's really not Paco's machine gun picado.



Yesterday I thought it must be at least 400-500 bpm. Then I checked on youtube this. At 0:22-0:27, 800 and 1200 bpm respectively. 1200 sounded more close to his picado speed. But somehow it's too much. Maybe it's not correct.



What Mr. Marlow wrote there sounds more realistic. Even more detailed measure 14 notes per second, which is 840 bpm. I wish my metronome could do more than 250 bpm. So the answer is 840. Is it correct or can Paco do it faster? Anyone?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 20:31:04
 
Piwin

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to devilhand

Unless otherwise specified, when people give a bpm for picado, they're usually talking about 16th notes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 20:51:35
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Unless otherwise specified, when people give a bpm for picado, they're usually talking about 16th notes.

My bad. That makes sense now. Amigo your answer was spot on amigo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 22:08:16
 
Auda

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to kitarist

quote:

What's "at speed"? Let's say in terms of 4 notes per click/metronome beat, what metronome BPM would that be?


At speed is playing fast enough to convey the rapidity of the particular scale or passage. I'm not sure how fast as I can't really be too bothered with BPM in that sense anymore. I would say something beyond 192 with a 2 finger picado and so with ami I can play a bit faster. How far beyond depends on the day with both methods. I don't put to much stock in it as I am sure most folks can do the same. What is important for me now is how a scale or passage is played and that can take some time to approximate, especially with consistency. After that I might try to put my own spin on it if I can think of anything.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2020 14:48:18
 
Ricardo

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Auda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

quote:

What's "at speed"? Let's say in terms of 4 notes per click/metronome beat, what metronome BPM would that be?


At speed is playing fast enough to convey the rapidity of the particular scale or passage. I'm not sure how fast as I can't really be too bothered with BPM in that sense anymore. I would say something beyond 192 with a 2 finger picado and so with ami I can play a bit faster. How far beyond depends on the day with both methods. I don't put to much stock in it as I am sure most folks can do the same. What is important for me now is how a scale or passage is played and that can take some time to approximate, especially with consistency. After that I might try to put my own spin on it if I can think of anything.

Cheers


Bpm is important because it makes fast runs have a musical implication which is timing and subdivision. Playing fast in the manner of the top level guys doesn’t mean a careless cramming of notes into a bar. It’s about controlling the rhythm divisions. As per my link above, I found it interesting that during their improvised solos during caña de Azucar, at a foot tap tempo of about 117 bpm, paco and Cañizares played around with triplet (groups of 6 notes per foot tap), however Banderas was not afraid to squeeze out a lovely 8 note per beat run. The only reason the other guys didn’t go for similar stuff is they weren’t feeling comfortable with it imo. Checking this deeper, the fastest controlled 8s I have heard from PDL where at 115bpm. I’m quite convinced that players like Paco are quite aware of their personal thresholds on a metronome and keep within those limits on stage for musical reasons. It holds that all students and players should do the same.

Now I was wrong earlier when folks argued with me about cerreduela, however they where also wrong. I knew by feel it wasn’t 6’s, and they knew it wasn’t 8’s, and we argued, but it turned out to be smack in the middle...7, which is an odd (both strange and metrically odd) grouping to improvise with. At a faster tempo with less divisions one will find a similar issue with 4-5-6 Groupings. Rasgueados for example deal with that. Always good to be aware what Specific tempo different techniques will FEEL like, so you can be confident in the heat of the moment when playing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2020 17:59:35
 
Auda

 

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RE: Felipe Coelho on picado (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Playing fast in the manner of the top level guys doesn’t mean a careless cramming of notes into a bar. It’s about controlling the rhythm divisions.


That was what I was on about when I said - What is important for me now is how a scale or passage is played and that can take some time to approximate, especially with consistency.

Sometimes it only takes 20 minutes to get a scale/passage musically other times it can take 20 plus hours and then I have to maintain it too.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2020 15:23:37
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