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I've been taking some rasgueado lessons on YouTube and may have overdone it. The fingernail of my right hand index finger has slightly pulled away from the flesh on the right side of the nail. I didn't even notice it at first. Is this something like a callous that you eventually develop on a fingertip or will this keep reoccurring if not more careful?
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to mark51)
See the discussion of rasgueado between Julian Bream and Paco Peña, starting at 3:56. Later Bream relapses to his usual pronunciation "rasgwahdo."
Peña doesn't even try to tell Bream what's wrong with his rasgueado. It's the common fault of most classical guitarists of Bream's generation, no matter how they try to do it. (And Bream's attempts are about as far from flamenco as you can get.) They dig into the strings too deeply. Could that be a problem for you?
A precise, loud and percussive rasgueado can be done while touching the strings fairly lightly.
Here´s a classical guitarist with a good rasgueado, but Pepe grew up playing both flamenco and classical, taught by is father. The first LP Pepe released was all solo flamenco guitar, mostly if not all covers of other guitarists. Still, I wouldn't really call Romero a flamenco guitarist.
Like most flamenco guitarists of his age, Pepe often uses all four fingers. Many if not most modern flamencos use only three, following Paco de Lucia. Romero has a strong pinky, but not as strong as most flamencos' ring finger.
A lot of classical teachers advise practicing rasgueados to strengthen the extensor muscles of the fingers. Pepe is one of the few who show how to do it pretty much right.
Grisha Goryachev plays both classical and flamenco. He gave a master class here. Professor Adam Holzman, head of the University of Texas guitar studio, asked Grisha to teach rasgueado, and moved to be sure he could see him clearly. Grisha made the point that rasgueados don't get louder, clearer of faster by digging in. In fact it's just the opposite.
Rasgueados shouldn't be any harder on your nails than any other right hand technitque, because you don't need dig in to make the strings really ring.
Many if not most modern flamencos use only three, following Paco de Lucia.
Do you know when PDL began to use only 3 fingers for rasgueado? From studying early recordings Fabulosa Guitarra, Fantasia Flamenca, Duende Flamenco and Fuente y Caudal I think he was using 4 fingers and 5 stroke rasgueado in that period (1967-73). Even when he is playing 4 strokes per beat or half beat (in Siguiriyas) I think he is using 4 fingers and 5 stroke rasgueado (that's the way I hear/interpret/play it anyway!). I haven't studied the later recordings to the same level of detail (I enjoy listening to them but don't play them).
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to mark indigo)
mark indigo-
You would do better to ask others about details of Paco's career. While I have enjoyed and admired his work I have not followed it as minutely as others here on the Foro have done.
In his first appearance on BBC in 1976 he is starting rasgueados with the ring finger.
You would do better to ask others about details of Paco's career. While I have enjoyed and admired his work I have not followed it as minutely as others here on the Foro have done.
In his first appearance on BBC in 1976 he is starting rasgueados with the ring finger.
RNJ
At 1:22, his second phrase of rasgueado counts 1,2,3, are done eami,ieam,i....and the rest after it the same. Basically the 5 stroke with pinky. He used this pattern from his first album till death. And many many others.
The only notable change in his technique was rhythmic in nature. On Fuente y caudal the abanico remates were done started on count 7-10 as triplets starting p up on the beat. Starting from almoraima 1976 he would set up an off beat triplet from 6&, the open e string up beat, then began AFTER 7 a-i, the continue p-a-i, triplet such that p was up on the beat. Soon after that time he would add i down after 10 to drive off beat rhythms forward, and finally, the same off beat concept except he increased the subdivision value to 16ths for the entire remate (ai,paip,aipa,i,p...) starting from solo quiero caminar on through his final tour was using that.
I’m only describing that single scenario or use. Going back to early albums I see most all techniques used through his entire career, you name it I can find it for you.
About OP. Nobody addressed the nail separating from nail bed... no this is NOT normal. It can happen to a pro accidentally, Krazy glue again can help temporarily until it heals. It’s bad news, try not to let the nail catch the first string on the up stroke in such a violent way. Keep the nails short enough that it’s ok to get callouses on tips of right hand fingers, not as thick as left but enough so you can play pretty hard getting some skin before nail contact. You may hear about this petroleum grease the flamenco guys use on RH finger tips. It prevents these problems to some degree.
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo-
I’ll take your word for it. I looked at the video at 1/2 and 1/4 speed at a couple of places. His little finger lifts with more curvature than a. I thought e was moving in sympathy with a, but more curved to miss the strings. Guess I was wrong. That’s why I recommended Mark51 look for an expert opinion.
So, a couple of months ago I decided to add amii to my repertoire. Took a couple of weeks. I still have to concentrate to get it even when continuously repeated, so its not as well wired into my brain as the other patterns I use. I like how it sounds. It works best with p hooked behind 6 and palm parallel to strings.
What got me started on amii was casually glancing at a Kai Narezzo lesson. His hand position clearly didn’t work for me. I looked at Jose Tanaka. His position worked. Tanaka demonstrated Narezzo’s position and said, “Don’t do.this.” Narezzo rests his thumb on the side of the sixth string. Tanaka hooks his thumb between the string and the soundboard, the back of the tip almost flat against the wood. Narezzo’s thumb is shorter and narrower than mine..His position seems OK for him, more or less, but he doesn’t sound as strong as Tanaka.
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
Why is this? I find 4 fingers much easier/more natural, I'm surprised to learn it isn't the norm
pinky is weaker and shorter, so it's hard to get all the downstrokes equal, and also the 3 finger/4 stroke amii rasgueado is a more even division of the beat into 4 instead of the 5, so can work better with dance or percusion, it can have a clearer, cleaner sound - sometimes you want that, sometimes you don't....
I use both. I first learned the 4 finger/5 stroke rasgueado and later learned the 3 finger/4 stroke one. When I learned that i used it instead of the other one, but later on went back to the original one as well. I find it really useful to have both (and 2 finger/3 stroke aii as well).
Sometimes playing for dance class my hands get tired playing one I will switch to the other. I can use the 3 finger/4 stroke one to divide beats into 4 too, but as it uses an extra finger it's less work for each finger... also i think sometimes it is good for balance of the hand to use all the fingers (but this is not scientifically proven so I can't refer you to a peer reviewed study on it).
so sometimes instead of "amii amii i" over 3 beats i play "eami ieam i"
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Inglés
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Like most flamenco guitarists of his age, Pepe often uses all four fingers. Many if not most modern flamencos use only three, following Paco de Lucia.
Why is this? I find 4 fingers much easier/more natural, I'm surprised to learn it isn't the norm
Gerardo Nuñez is one of few players I know to admit to not using the pinky ever. When he does that similar passage in buleria paco does eami,ieam,i , Gerardo does amii,amii,i and it sounds different even though it’s the same mathematical rhythm. Amii is a very effective and popular pattern used by everyone practically, but it’s not “new”. I think some students notice two details in their journey and associate it with “modern” vs traditional playing in general:
1. Amii in place of older examples of eami,eami... 2. Loading and flicking off the bent thumb.
Both situations are to be found in oldest recordings of Flamenco guitar. I can only admit that taking a large sampling of one palo, say Alegrias, the older might show more 5 tuplets, and the modern examples might show more 4 note flicking examples. But looking at specifics say La Barrosa (considered a modern piece) you see equality there, 5 tuplets not flicked on the A chord at the beginning (:23) flicked off thumb on the E chord after that, and amii 4 note on the D chord at the end 4:22 (studio version these are flicked off the bent thumb and sound different than here). Compare the difference in separation and rhythm at slow speed, the A chord vs D chord examples. So I would hope that students can let go of the concept that a specific technique done by multiple players need not apply to old or new Flamenco, rather, it’s a choice determined by desired voicing and sound of the chord.
Here D chord amii not flicked at 4:00 like video above, and flicked off bent thumb at 4:25 sounds different.
Here’s a nice pattern he rarely did, I feel borrowed from Cepero at 2:35, eami,iami,iami,i i...flicking i off thumb unlike Cepero:
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Ricardo)
Interesting.
When the rasgueo emphasis is on the upper strings, Paco's thumb rests along the side of the sixth string, almost parallel to it. When the rasgueo aims at the lower strings, his thumb comes up off the sixth string, except for the tip, which tends to hook behind it.
My hands are bigger than Paco's. The first of Paco's positions I describe puts my fingers too far in the treble direction. Narezzo rests the thumb against the side of the sixth string, but at a steeper angle than Paco's. His position puts my thumbnail against the string, not the fleshy tip. That makes the thumb unstable, not a good anchor.
Tanaka's position, with the thumb hooked well behind the string and the wrist closer to the soundboard, puts my fingers in the right position, and skims the tips across the strings. I can do bass, treble, or both. Flicking off the thumb makes a brilliant, percussive strike.
Different strokes for different folks.
Must be interesting for a teacher, figuring out what works best for a given student.
Must be interesting for a teacher, figuring out what works best for a given student.
I would never discourage a student form doing something their own way, if they are actually achieving the desired sound. But it’s rare that will be the case. Although we each have the freedom to choose our favorite rasgueado patterns, there seems to be a method to the madness, and it’s not about physiology or the size of your guitar. I am always busting out my baby guitar to prove that the technique approach does not change because of the size of my student relative to the guitar.
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I think some students notice two details in their journey and associate it with “modern” vs traditional playing in general:
1. Amii in place of older examples of eami,eami... 2. Loading and flicking off the bent thumb.
Both situations are to be found in oldest recordings of Flamenco guitar.
that's interesting, do you have examples or references for older examples of amii? I only really know it from people like Tomatito, Gerardo, Riqueni etc.
quote:
Here’s a nice pattern he rarely did, I feel borrowed from Cepero at 2:35, eami,iami,iami,i i
I didn't realise he was doing that there, it's a similiar principle (ie. starting with an extra finger and then continuing with fewer fingers to keep the same number of strokes per beat and ending with i up) to ami iai iai i which I learned from Moraíto (video).
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
that's interesting, do you have examples or references for older examples of amii? I only really know it from people like Tomatito, Gerardo, Riqueni etc.
Here’s Esteban de Sanlucar (Born 1912 same as Sabicas) at 1:45
Also, here is where flicking load of thumb idea derives... the rasgueado at :04 closing siguiriyas is flicking eami,ieam,i+golpe. You can hear how that up stroke stands out vs the flicked fingers into the bass notes. He does the same phrase at the very end of this track. PDL did this same pattern often and the none flicked version as per bulerias examples above. It’s easy to see how this got replaced by Estebans amii,amii,i pattern for same type phrases in solea,Alegrias, etc, including that siguiriyas phrase.
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Both situations are to be found in oldest recordings of Flamenco guitar. I can only admit that taking a large sampling of one palo, say Alegrias, the older might show more 5 tuplets, and the modern examples might show more 4 note flicking examples. But looking at specifics say La Barrosa (considered a modern piece) you see equality there, 5 tuplets not flicked on the A chord at the beginning (:23) flicked off thumb on the E chord after that, and amii 4 note on the D chord at the end 4:22 (studio version these are flicked off the bent thumb and sound different than here). Compare the difference in separation and rhythm at slow speed, the A chord vs D chord examples. So I would hope that students can let go of the concept that a specific technique done by multiple players need not apply to old or new Flamenco, rather, it’s a choice determined by desired voicing and sound of the chord.
I can't consciously hear the difference at original speed if I'm honest, can just about at half speed. One question though, what do you mean when you say 5 tuplets? Because it doesn't sound like a quintuplet to me in the sense I understand the term, 1 beat divided equally into 5 - it sounds like the beats are broken into 4 semi-quavers as far as I can tell?
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Inglés
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Both situations are to be found in oldest recordings of Flamenco guitar. I can only admit that taking a large sampling of one palo, say Alegrias, the older might show more 5 tuplets, and the modern examples might show more 4 note flicking examples. But looking at specifics say La Barrosa (considered a modern piece) you see equality there, 5 tuplets not flicked on the A chord at the beginning (:23) flicked off thumb on the E chord after that, and amii 4 note on the D chord at the end 4:22 (studio version these are flicked off the bent thumb and sound different than here). Compare the difference in separation and rhythm at slow speed, the A chord vs D chord examples. So I would hope that students can let go of the concept that a specific technique done by multiple players need not apply to old or new Flamenco, rather, it’s a choice determined by desired voicing and sound of the chord.
I can't consciously hear the difference at original speed if I'm honest, can just about at half speed. One question though, what do you mean when you say 5 tuplets? Because it doesn't sound like a quintuplet to me in the sense I understand the term, 1 beat divided equally into 5 - it sounds like the beats are broken into 4 semi-quavers as far as I can tell?
He does the A chord twice at the start. It’s easier to perceive at slow tempo, the groups of 5 per beat (Eami,eami,i)on the second pass, but he’s doing the same thing twice. If the pinky is dragging a bit it might get over powered by the ring finger at these high tempos. It’s not meant to be staccato and March like, simply cover the timing space of counts 1 and 2. When he bends his thumb the difference should be clear (E chord), and of course the D chord at the end, 4 separated notes per beat are slower and more defined subdivision. The idea of the “5 tuplet” technique is to cover the beats with continuous chord sound, not create complex meter. So in the end one not need to slow down the speed to perceive either eami applications vs amii applications, it should obvious eventually one or the other was used.
Here’s some more 5’s at 4:25 (c7-F chords and after), maybe more clear example?
The main point is that there is not much difference between old players and newer players in terms of mechanics of rasgueados. There are not “old rasgueados” and “modern rasgueados” physically. Only personal trends of each player.
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
He does the A chord twice at the start. It’s easier to perceive at slow tempo, the groups of 5 per beat (Eami,eami,i)on the second pass, but he’s doing the same thing twice. If the pinky is dragging a bit it might get over powered by the ring finger at these high tempos. It’s not meant to be staccato and March like, simply cover the timing space of counts 1 and 2. When he bends his thumb the difference should be clear (E chord), and of course the D chord at the end, 4 separated notes per beat are slower and more defined subdivision. The idea of the “5 tuplet” technique is to cover the beats with continuous chord sound, not create complex meter. So in the end one not need to slow down the speed to perceive either eami applications vs amii applications, it should obvious eventually one or the other was used.
Here’s some more 5’s at 4:25 (c7-F chords and after), maybe more clear example?
The main point is that there is not much difference between old players and newer players in terms of mechanics of rasgueados. There are not “old rasgueados” and “modern rasgueados” physically. Only personal trends of each player.
Listening back again at 1/2 speed yeah I think I've got it, I think the e and a are bleeding into each other a bit. The second example is definitely clearer. I really like that sound, I think quintuplets sound really cool especially given counting in 5s is very unusual for anyone from a western pop/rock background.
How important is te exact spacing? There's a quintuplet rasgueo technique in the Juan Martin book, as part of the early alegrías which doubles the i, down then up (so eamii). It took a lot of work to stop unconsciously switching to 5 sextuplets with a rest at the end, especially at higher speeds.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper
quote:
Here’s Esteban de Sanlucar (Born 1912 same as Sabicas) at 1:45
I've always thought that type of rasgueo was just index up and down. I've heard that same type of sound from Manitas de Plata I think.
Use that when you want more golpes. For example 1e&ah,2e&ah,3....use amii,amii,i if you want golpe on 3. If you need golpes on “1,2,3”, accenting each beat, do i up and down the same speed, same rhythm. Obviously this only works at medium or slow tempos.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
It took a lot of work to stop unconsciously switching to 5 sextuplets with a rest at the end, especially at higher speeds.
Well, if you look back up, I describe the pattern eami,ieam,i...many times. Paco and Ramon Montoya examples. It’s that concept (even 4s executed by odd number strokes) that trains the independence needed to learn to retract index up and send out your pinky without a hiccup. Master that first and the 5 tuplets become no problem, you just feel pinky on the beat as you repeat until it stops.
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Well, if you look back up, I describe the pattern eami,ieam,i...many times. Paco and Ramon Montoya examples. It’s that concept (even 4s executed by odd number strokes) that trains the independence needed to learn to retract index up and send out your pinky without a hiccup. Master that first and the 5 tuplets become no problem, you just feel pinky on the beat as you repeat until it stops.
i can "feel" in fives fine, translating that to the motor skills is the difficulty. I'm getting there though
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Inglés)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Inglés
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Well, if you look back up, I describe the pattern eami,ieam,i...many times. Paco and Ramon Montoya examples. It’s that concept (even 4s executed by odd number strokes) that trains the independence needed to learn to retract index up and send out your pinky without a hiccup. Master that first and the 5 tuplets become no problem, you just feel pinky on the beat as you repeat until it stops.
i can "feel" in fives fine, translating that to the motor skills is the difficulty. I'm getting there though
Ok, I feel this strum at 2:45-6:27 that I teach slow is at the heart of getting very even rolls, no matter what’s the pattern. What I recommend is learning what I show here and add your pinky into the mix. Start i up, pinky down, ring down, middle down, index down. Once you master that, rolling continuous with 4s, 5s, whatever you want, is pretty easy.
Apply the same exercise to tangos if you want more practice , at 4:50
RE: Rasgueado Fingernail Injury (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Ok, I feel this strum at 2:45-6:27 that I teach slow is at the heart of getting very even rolls, no matter what’s the pattern. What I recommend is learning what I show here and add your pinky into the mix. Start i up, pinky down, ring down, middle down, index down. Once you master that, rolling continuous with 4s, 5s, whatever you want, is pretty easy.
That is a bit of a coincidence you bought that up because that is the EXACT video I've been working on starting yesterday. I have been practicing that up-down-down-down 3 finger rasgueo, but I've also been using the all-downstrokes eami (which I am more confident with) when working on the compás.
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