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RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new trend in classical guitar playing   You are logged in as Guest
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Mark2

Posts: 1891
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to mark indigo

So because one of the guitarists in his ensemble plays a PdL falseta that is super traditional and almost fifty years old, he's keeping up with the times? He used to have the Losadas playing with him. Jason McGuire played me some of a record they made maybe 20 years ago, and it didn't sound anything like PP.

I have zero issue with artists who essentially play the same style their entire careers, that is their choice. I'd love to have the technique PP does, but I don't find his records of interest.

As far as VA and elevator music, I've been in a lot of elevators, and never heard his music there. After one of his concerts I overheard two guys talking about the show. They said he was a great guitarist but played with no feeling. I think he's an absolute master and those guys had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2020 16:13:42
 
TonyGonzales84

 

Posts: 78
Joined: Apr. 23 2020
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Mark2

Mark,

I respectfully recommend you go see Paco Peña, if you get the chance. I have seen him approximately five times, since the mid 80's, the last time in early 2013, and when he's got his ensemble, it's a great "flamenco puro" show. He's an excellent accompanist of his singers and dancers, playing in what would nowadays be called a traditional manner, which I know you're familiar with. The old-time Spanish guitarists would have simply said, "toca bien, toca muy bien," a real compliment!

For an experience readily available and accessible to the general public (meaning, not to only flamenco aficionados, etc), Paco Peña's show is a great example of traditional flamenco. He plays some solos, but he's predominantly an (excellent) accompanist of singers and dancers. Truly an outstanding ambassador for el arte.

Now in the spirit of friendly discussion, an interesting point is your mentioning artists (I assume flamenco guitarists) playing "the same style their entire careers." Other than Paco de Lucía and Manolo Sanlúcar, I am not familiar with many (any?) big name flamenco guitarists that have changed their playing style through their careers, and even with these two monstruos, they were always blazing their own distinct but related paths. I don't mean to take anything away from many of today's big flamenco guitarists -- they're up there in front of the public and I'm not, many still excellent accompanists; I'm just honestly not familiar with such guitarristas.

Tony

_____________________________

Tony
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2020 21:54:33
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to TonyGonzales84

quote:

I respectfully recommend you go see Paco Peña, if you get the chance. I have seen him approximately five times, since the mid 80's, the last time in early 2013, and when he's got his ensemble, it's a great "flamenco puro" show. He's an excellent accompanist of his singers and dancers, playing in what would nowadays be called a traditional manner, which I know you're familiar with. The old-time Spanish guitarists would have simply said, "toca bien, toca muy bien," a real compliment!


I agree, Tony. I have attended two performances by Paco Pena over the last eight years in the Washington, DC area, and each time he put on a great show accompanying his singers and dancers, as well as performing solo. He definitely is the most "traditional" of those flamencos running the circuit and has been for many years. I put the term "traditional" in quotes because we all (or at least most of us) understand that there is no strict dividing line between "traditional" and "modern," but I think most of us know what we mean when we use those terms.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2020 23:30:39
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

So because one of the guitarists in his ensemble plays a PdL falseta that is super traditional and almost fifty years old, he's keeping up with the times?


Did I say that? No, I said:

"Sure, he hasn't innovated in the same way as his contemporary Paco de Lucía, but he hasn't just played the same stuff in the same way for his whole career."

I assume the "ensemble" are his students, so also assume that he taught it to them. The rest of the group accompany, so the whole "ensemble" plays it.

What do you mean by "super traditional"? If you mean in the literal sense of "handed down" then please show me the pre-PDL source of the copla/letra/falseta that PDL recorded. I'm not aware a version of it from Montoya, Sabicas, Ricardo or anyone else, and assume it is an original composition by PDL.

If by "super-traditional" you mean it's based on a letra/copla de Huelva, then that would mean ALL solo guitar versions of letra/copla de Huelva are "super traditional", including on PDL's "Montiño", Riqueni's "Al Niño Miguel" and maybe even Vicente's "Mensaje" (I'm pretty sure it's based on letra/copla de Huelva, tho maybe a bit of a looser arrangement...).

And if just being 50 years old makes it "super traditional" then that would make "Entre Dos Aguas" also super traditional as it was on the same album (Fuente Y Caudal, actually released in 1973, so a couple more years to go.... a few more years and "Almoraíma" will be "traditional".... and then "Solo Quiero Caminar"! ).

quote:

He used to have the Losadas playing with him.

Yep, Tito Losada played second guitar on 3 tracks on "Azahara". I saw one of the group shows with singers and dancers (back in the mid to late 90's?) with Tito Losada and two other younger Losadas (sons? nephews? I don't know - I might still have a programme somewhere....) The whole group played together, and the older and younger guitarists and styles blended seamlessly (to my ears). I don't know if the rumba-pop group "Los Losadas" are the same Losadas as played with Paco Peña - could be - guys from Ketama I have heard play more straight flamenco as well as rumba-pop.
Anyway this Losada vid will give you an idea of that PP show (the guitarist on the far left is Tito Losada, and the other guitarist in white shirt second from right was one of the others in the PP show, not sure about the other 2):

quote:

I have zero issue with artists who essentially play the same style their entire careers, that is their choice. I'd love to have the technique PP does, but I don't find his records of interest.

I'm not suggesting otherwise... as I said earlier upthread:

"We all have tastes and personal preferences, each to their own, "el libro de sabores es blanco" - I'm not knocking anyone's taste or preferences, only the pigeonholing and labelling, and the way those tastes and preferences seem to get turned into rigid categories and rules and divisions and partisanship, and I think flamenco is bigger and more messy, nuanced, complex, beautiful and AMAZING than any of them."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2020 16:24:48
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to James Ashley Mayer

quote:

I do have one CD of his where half of it is direct Nino Ricardo covers and I would say that, in context, that's a bit of "same old, same old".

It's half Ramon Montoya covers and half Niño Ricardo covers. I think it was a particular project to do that, as he says in the liner notes; "May this recording be a humble tribute to their memory and to their enormous contribution to the art of flamenco guitar." He also says in the liner notes; "Growing up in Andalusia in the 1950's I was eager to learn everything. ... The flamenco 'hero' of those days was Niño Ricardo. He was the idol we all sought to emulate. ... Years later... I came across Montoya's recordings. It was a revelation to realize how much material I had learned through the years was in fact Ramón's creation."

Rafael Riqueni has also recorded an album of covers of Sabicas, Niño Ricardo and Ésteban de Sanlucar, it's called "Maestros" (I mention that as Riqueni is usually labelled "modern"....)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2020 16:37:14
 
Mark2

Posts: 1891
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Mark2

I know that a lot of UK players are big PP fans and that makes sense as his residency has done a lot for flamenco there. And please make no mistake I respect his ability. Regarding the falseta, PP didn’t even play it so it isn’t evidence of anything regarding his playing. The traditional aspect of it to me is the harmony, and to my ears it’s a very traditional falseta. Regarding PP’s accompanying I understand he is not in the thick of Spain’s flamenco scene, but the acid test is what top singers records has he played on? Personally I don’t know as I don’t follow his career. A name guitarist with good bookings can hire any singer but which ones have hired him? I would be interested to know and would be interested in hearing those recordings. I have never seen him play live. I have seen Sabicas, who I think was a huge influence on him. I did love Sabicas but there has been so much innovation since then and so much flamenco guitar music produced since his time that today I much prefer listening to other styles.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2020 17:58:57
 
Piwin

Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Inglés

quote:

cheers Piwin


Cheers Inglés! (sorry, I'm late catching up on this thread)

On the discussion about Paco Pena, for some reason he's never really appealed to me. I don't have any arguments as to why. Probably because he didn't have a long mullet in the 80s and I've never seen him wear truly ugly shirts on stage.

Plus, he's been spotted playing duets with classical players like Williams and Fisk. That's poison for flamenco street cred.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2020 19:49:08
 
Mark2

Posts: 1891
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to TonyGonzales84

Tony you make some excellent points. I think you are correct in that likely most players stick to the style that propelled them into prominence. My first teacher also moved away from Spain permanently and tailored his concerts to mainly non aficionados. Since I adopted his style for years before moving away from it, that is probably why I don’t favor that type of presentation now. I prefer to mostly study and see newer stuff. It’s interesting that at least in my area when artists come from Spain, they generally make no effort to engage the casual fan or the general public and yet often have great success, at least in my view. Over the years I’ve played with, studied with, and hung out and talked flamenco with dozens of local guitarists and dancers. We talked about many players from the very famous to more obscure guys who aren’t known outside Spain except by aficionados. Exchanged tapes, videos, and cd’s. We snatched falsetas from various players and inserted them into dance routines, marveled at the technical abilities of different players. Despite a number of appearances locally I can’t recall a conversation where PP’s name came up. For whatever reason he hasn’t seemed to have made an impact in my area among local aficionados. Maybe we just aren’t familiar enough with his work. Or can’t abide the lack of a mullet :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2020 20:37:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14966
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

What do you mean by "super traditional"?


Wait, I’ve got it! If the falseta was ever performed live in TRUE black and white (not talking artsy black white like clerks or Fury Road black and chrome), then the falseta and playing can be decidedly considered NOT modern.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2020 17:08:33
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I assume the "ensemble" are his students, so also assume that he taught it to them.


quote:

Regarding the falseta, PP didn’t even play it so it isn’t evidence of anything regarding his playing.


evidence that he listened to it, liked it, learned it, and taught it to his students?


quote:

Regarding PP’s accompanying I understand he is not in the thick of Spain’s flamenco scene, but the acid test is what top singers records has he played on? Personally I don’t know as I don’t follow his career. A name guitarist with good bookings can hire any singer but which ones have hired him? I would be interested to know and would be interested in hearing those recordings.

I understand PP worked in tablaos in Spain before coming to London and establishing a solo career. AFAIK he has no standing as an accompanist in Spain, and I agree with you about the hiring situation - in the group shows I have seen he hires the singers, dancers and other guitarists, not the other way around. He may be the big name on the bill, but in those shows he gives the other guitarists a lot of room to shine and he more or less takes a back seat, that's why I said "he comes across as very humble".

I have been trying to point out to someone who has decided they are a "traditionalist" that there isn't always a simple clear cut line between "traditional" and "modern" - that a "traditionalist" like PP has over time incorporated some newer (ie. post Sabicas/Ricardo) ideas into his playing, and that a "modern" like PDL both comes from the "tradition" and has contributed to it (his early stuff is now quite old and incorporated into it, although at the time it was released it was pushing the boundaries).

That's it! I'm not trying to convince anyone PP is the greatest, or that he is at the forefront of the avant garde, or that you or anyone else should necessarily listen to him. I've been hoping that by pointing out examples where "tradition" and "modern" meet or overlap a "tradtionalist" will not be put off listening to something labelled "modern", and maybe at least listen to early PDL (by pointing out that PP has taken on some of that).

btw the group show with the Losadas was in 1995, the guitarists were: Paco Peña, Tito Losada, Vaky Losada and Diego Losada. Cante Angel Gabarre and Yeye de Cadiz and "special feature" La Piconera.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2020 18:42:57
 
Mark2

Posts: 1891
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to mark indigo

To be more specific in response to your questions I’d say the melodic line has less syncopation than most modern lines. Crediting PP with teaching it? I’m sure he could play it from memory with no problem but that falseta is known by thousands. Transcriptions of it easily accessed. I play it myself rather poorly regularly. If it was considered modern when it was released, it certainly is not now imo. When you listen to it do you consider it modern playing? I think it’s fair to say that PP is a fantastic guitarist who plays in a traditional manner. That doesn’t mean he’s never played in Eb, how could someone that good not hear and mess around with new ideas? And I agree with you the line is blurry. I’ve been listening to Yerai Cortes, a fantastic player who plays tons of traditional material but with a modern rhythmic sensibility. Blurring the heck out of it. Cheers Mark, I appreciate your posts.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

So because one of the guitarists in his ensemble plays a PdL falseta that is super traditional and almost fifty years old, he's keeping up with the times?


Did I say that? No, I said:

"Sure, he hasn't innovated in the same way as his contemporary Paco de Lucía, but he hasn't just played the same stuff in the same way for his whole career."

I assume the "ensemble" are his students, so also assume that he taught it to them. The rest of the group accompany, so the whole "ensemble" plays it.

What do you mean by "super traditional"? If you mean in the literal sense of "handed down" then please show me the pre-PDL source of the copla/letra/falseta that PDL recorded. I'm not aware a version of it from Montoya, Sabicas, Ricardo or anyone else, and assume it is an original composition by PDL.

If by "super-traditional" you mean it's based on a letra/copla de Huelva, then that would mean ALL solo guitar versions of letra/copla de Huelva are "super traditional", including on PDL's "Montiño", Riqueni's "Al Niño Miguel" and maybe even Vicente's "Mensaje" (I'm pretty sure it's based on letra/copla de Huelva, tho maybe a bit of a looser arrangement...).

And if just being 50 years old makes it "super traditional" then that would make "Entre Dos Aguas" also super traditional as it was on the same album (Fuente Y Caudal, actually released in 1973, so a couple more years to go.... a few more years and "Almoraíma" will be "traditional".... and then "Solo Quiero Caminar"! ).

quote:

He used to have the Losadas playing with him.

Yep, Tito Losada played second guitar on 3 tracks on "Azahara". I saw one of the group shows with singers and dancers (back in the mid to late 90's?) with Tito Losada and two other younger Losadas (sons? nephews? I don't know - I might still have a programme somewhere....) The whole group played together, and the older and younger guitarists and styles blended seamlessly (to my ears). I don't know if the rumba-pop group "Los Losadas" are the same Losadas as played with Paco Peña - could be - guys from Ketama I have heard play more straight flamenco as well as rumba-pop.
Anyway this Losada vid will give you an idea of that PP show (the guitarist on the far left is Tito Losada, and the other guitarist in white shirt second from right was one of the others in the PP show, not sure about the other 2):

quote:

I have zero issue with artists who essentially play the same style their entire careers, that is their choice. I'd love to have the technique PP does, but I don't find his records of interest.

I'm not suggesting otherwise... as I said earlier upthread:

"We all have tastes and personal preferences, each to their own, "el libro de sabores es blanco" - I'm not knocking anyone's taste or preferences, only the pigeonholing and labelling, and the way those tastes and preferences seem to get turned into rigid categories and rules and divisions and partisanship, and I think flamenco is bigger and more messy, nuanced, complex, beautiful and AMAZING than any of them."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2020 19:38:16
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I’d say the melodic line has less syncopation than most modern lines. ... If it was considered modern when it was released, it certainly is not now imo. When you listen to it do you consider it modern playing?

I completely agree with you, it doesn't sound modern now, nearly 50 years later, but I think it's "modern" compared to comparable copla/falsetas from Sabicas/Ricardo era - I think "modern" and "traditional" are often relative terms.

quote:

Crediting PP with teaching it? I’m sure he could play it from memory with no problem but that falseta is known by thousands. Transcriptions of it easily accessed.

D'you know about PP's flamenco guitar degree course in Rotterdam? I am guessing/assuming the rest of the group/ensemble are his students from that course, and that copla/falseta is something he teaches on the course and/or included for the ensemble performance. Maybe Erik will pop up and tell us about the stuff he uses for teaching on the course?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2020 20:18:13
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Mark2

mark indigo I agree completely with your sentiments re 'traditional' vs 'modern'.
I'd think 'old' would be a more appropriate term since as you've said traditions tend to change.

Case in point - I don't think paco or riqueni are considered "modern" anymore.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2020 23:14:33
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

I have been trying to point out to someone who has decided they are a "traditionalist" that there isn't always a simple clear cut line between "traditional" and "modern" - that a "traditionalist" like PP has over time incorporated some newer (ie. post Sabicas/Ricardo) ideas into his playing, and that a "modern" like PDL both comes from the "tradition" and has contributed to it (his early stuff is now quite old and incorporated into it, although at the time it was released it was pushing the boundaries).


Mark Indigo, I don't think we are in opposition here. I have stated that I think of all those tocaores running the circuit Paco Pena is the most "traditional," and that I put the term "traditional" in quotes because we all (or at least most of us) understand that there is no strict dividing line between "traditional" and "modern," but I think most of us know what we mean when we use those terms.

It may be a matter of semantics whether one uses the terms "modern," "traditional," "historic," "old," etc., but frankly I don't think any of them describes what we mean with complete accuracy. Nevertheless, I have chosen "traditional," and perhaps I should add "with reservations," although that seems linguistically unwieldy.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2020 23:39:37
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

[…] we all (or at least most of us) understand that there is no strict dividing line between "traditional" and "modern,"


I too understand this; but one difference I’ve quite often found is that whereas with traditional players I usually know within ten seconds , and certainly within twenty, what the style is, on occasion with some modern players I’ve got to the end of the entire piece and I still don’t know — I’m not talking about people like PdL (I still recall the delight on Luisa Pohren’s when after a moment she recognised what Casilda was).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 0:08:09
 
Piwin

Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

I think most of us know what we mean when we use those terms


Would I be wrong to assume that in certain contexts "traditional" also carries the meaning of "anonymous"? For instance, I've recently been going over some old material from my time in Granada. One falseta I found was the one posted in this thread by estebanana (where Stan Olmstead is playing). He describes it as "a traditional tangos de Granada falseta". To my dismay, because the reason I've been rummaging the internet for this falseta is that I could've sworn there was a person associated with this falseta but I just can't remember his name! Everything I've found about it only speaks of "a traditional falseta", so I've come to think that here "traditional", while it does mean what we would usually understand by the term, it also means that the author is unknown.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 11:28:45
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

so I've come to think that here "traditional", while it does mean what we would usually understand by the term, it also means that the author is unknown.


Good point, Piwin. Many songs in the genre of folk music are examples of your observation. For example, I have several vinyl albums of Joan Baez, Peter, Paul, and Mary, as well as others, in which songs, usually of Scots-Irish provenance from Appalachia, have no author listed, only "traditional." To cite several: "Barbara Allen," "Silver Dagger," "Old Blue," and others.

I imagine there are falseta's whose provenance cannot be pinned down because they were established before some later tocaor picked them up and began incorporating them into his repertoire. I leave it to musicologists specializing in flamenco to flesh it out, but it sounds likely to me.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 13:54:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14966
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

I think most of us know what we mean when we use those terms


Would I be wrong to assume that in certain contexts "traditional" also carries the meaning of "anonymous"? For instance, I've recently been going over some old material from my time in Granada. One falseta I found was the one posted in this thread by estebanana (where Stan Olmstead is playing). He describes it as "a traditional tangos de Granada falseta". To my dismay, because the reason I've been rummaging the internet for this falseta is that I could've sworn there was a person associated with this falseta but I just can't remember his name! Everything I've found about it only speaks of "a traditional falseta", so I've come to think that here "traditional", while it does mean what we would usually understand by the term, it also means that the author is unknown.


At 1:45


Nice quadruples per beat alzapua and 32 note rasgueados ... black and white... traditional 😂

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 20:00:35
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

I've come to think that here "traditional", while it does mean what we would usually understand by the term, it also means that the author is unknown.


No. “Folk music” (pace, apparently, most people in the US, who seem to think that it means merely a singer playing an acoustic guitar) means that the author is unknown.

God Save the King/Queen and The Hallelujah Chorus are traditional although the composers are known.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 20:41:50
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

so I've come to think that here "traditional", while it does mean what we would usually understand by the term, it also means that the author is unknown.
quote:


No. “Folk music” (pace, apparently, most people in the US, who seem to think that it means merely a singer playing an acoustic guitar) means that the author is unknown.

God Save the King/Queen and The Hallelujah Chorus are traditional although the composers are known.


In my part of the country (East Anglia) there is a "Traditional Music Trust" and they organise various things including a "Traditional Music Day" once a year. Their definition of "Traditional music" is more or less pre-industrial rural folk music. It is a reaction to not only the idea that folk music is "a singer playing an acoustic guitar" (they share horror stories of going to folk sessions at folk clubs with people singing beatles songs - in fact guitars of any sort are not considered "traditional"), but also seems to be about the method of transmission as much as the actual music itself. So if you learn a "folk song" or tune from a recording or a book it's not really proper traditional, you have to learn it from an old boy in the pub or something.... God save the king/queen and hallelujah chorus would not fall into this category!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 21:48:05
 
mark indigo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 21:49:11
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to chester

quote:

Case in point - I don't think paco or riqueni are considered "modern" anymore.
you are probably right there, but what would we call these then? traditional? and would Bill agree with that?







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 21:59:34
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

you are probably right there, but what would we call these then? traditional? and would Bill agree with that?


Transitional? Just kidding.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 22:17:05
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Mark2

quote:

I’ve been listening to Yerai Cortes, a fantastic player who plays tons of traditional material but with a modern rhythmic sensibility. Blurring the heck out of it.


this one?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 1 2020 22:34:28
 
Piwin

Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to BarkellWH

Thanks Ricardo. I found the name I was looking for. It was Ovejilla. Had it on the tip of my tongue but just couldn't find it. It was driving me insane!!
Juan Habichuela has a Zambra dedicated to him (A Juan Ovejilla) in his album "Campo del Principe". The melodies I had in mind are both in there. The one we were talking about first shows up at 0:40. I was also thinking of another one and it shows up at 2:15.


Both would come up regularly in tangos on the local scene, sometimes strung together as in the beginning of this piece (starts at 0:35):


Habichuela's zambra recording is fairly recent, but he attributes the piece to Ovejilla (excerpt from an interview):
"-El primer tema del disco es una zambra que dedicas a Juan Ovejilla, tu primer maestro. Háblanos de él.

-Pues tu lo has dicho, fue el primer maestro que tuve y de él aprendí muchísimo. Tocaba muy bien, se adelantó a la época. La zambra esta tiene unos arreglitos míos, pero es suya. Era muy bueno, fíjate que el Niño Ricardo iba a escucharle. Pero no quería salir ni grabó nunca nada, por eso no se le conoce."

If he did learn it from him and his memory of it is correct, then we can suppose Ovejilla was possibly already playing some version of it in the 1940s/50s when he was teaching a young Juan Habichuela (though I guess there's nothing to say he learned it from Ovejilla when he was his actual student, so who knows...). In any event, that was the name I was looking for, and I was taught those falsetas as being the material of Ovejilla. The name of that family carries quite a bit of weight in Granada, and IIRC Curro Albaicin also put them on a pedestal in his history of Sacromonte (which unfortunately I've left laying in a box somewhere in France...). Oddly the name is barely present at all on the internet (not even a single hit here on the best flamenco forum there is! well, there is now since I posted this ^^, but just the one).


@Bill and Paul thanks to both of you for the replies.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 11:56:41
 
Inglés

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 20 2017
 

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

In my part of the country there is an organisation called the "East Anglian Traditional Music Trust" and they organise various things including a "Traditional Music Day" once a year. Their definition of "Traditional music" is more or less pre-industrial rural folk music. It is a reaction to not only the idea that folk music is "a singer playing an acoustic guitar" (they share horror stories of going to folk sessions at folk clubs with people singing beatles songs - in fact guitars of any sort are not considered "traditional"), but also seems to be about the method of transmission as much as the actual music itself. So if you learn a "folk song" or tune from a recording or a book it's not really proper traditional, you have to learn it from an old boy in the pub or something.... God save the king/queen and hallelujah chorus would not fall into this category!


Ah a fellow British country boy I see. I've been in London 15 years now but my family home is proper rural, in the New Forest. The only folk music I can think of from my home is morris dancing in pubs, I'm sure there's much more, but little of it has really survived in the public consciousness that I'm aware of.

The definition of what is "folk" is difficult, although the contemporary English idea of "a guy playing a guitar" and everything else getting called "World Music" is clearly not it. There's an argument that pretty much all popular music is "folk" in the sense that it develops among and for the entertainment of ordinary people, as opposed to in an academic setting (like "classical").

Edit: Wikipedia posits several definitions of folk music, one I quite like is "music performed by custom over a long period of time"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 11:57:16
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

So if you learn a "folk song" or tune from a recording or a book it's not really proper traditional, you have to learn it from an old boy in the pub or something....


I well remember seeing the Young Tradition in the ’60s. Peter Bellamy was saying about how folk singers were supposed to sing songs learned at their mother’s knee; he didn’t have one of those, but he had one learned at his auntie’s knee.

He only found out later that she had got it from a Burl Ives record.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 16:51:55
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Inglés

quote:

Wikipedia posits several definitions of folk music, one I quite like is "music performed by custom over a long period of time"


The definition of folk music in the COD is:

quote:

traditional music of unknown authorship, transmitted orally.


Looks good to me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 16:58:08
 
BarkellWH

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 2 2020 19:12:49
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 19:11:56
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Solo flamenco guitar - a new tre... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

The ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax roamed Appalachia, the Mississippi Delta and other regions collecting genuine folk music in the 1930s, '40s, and '50s, which he recorded for the Library of Congress and compiled in several books, including "American Ballads and Folk Songs" (1934) and "Negro Folk Songs as Sung by Lead Belly" (1936).

By the COD's definition, did those songs cease being folk music when they were no longer transmitted orally but were written down (by Lomax and others) and recorded (many of which were) by Joan Baez, The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary, and others during the folk music boom of the late 1950s and 1960s? Would folk "purists" (adhering to the COD's definition) consider such songs just one more element of commercial music that once may have been considered "authentic" but were now posing fraudulently as "folk music"?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 2 2020 19:13:54
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