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RE: How long can you hold a barre chord?   You are logged in as Guest
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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2955
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Auda

quote:

I'm a bit jealous of your left hand pinky finger and the ability to bend it at the last joint. That is a nice feature to have to clear the other strings!

Cheers


That's funny, I never really noticed I was doing that. When I first started playing guitar I always used my pinky more than average, so it maybe it got more strong/flexible

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2020 21:53:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13240
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Auda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

I'm a bit jealous of your left hand pinky finger and the ability to bend it at the last joint. That is a nice feature to have to clear the other strings!

Cheers


It happens to anyone on certain long reaches, that being the middle joint is straight and tip joint bent (to varying degrees based on physiology) however in general,it should occur an attempt to bend slightly at the middle joint as well. I had a student whose pinky would lock up like that and it was certainly problematic for many passages.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2020 22:45:55
 
dartemo1

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 21 2010
 

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

OK, this just was uploaded to the channel
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2020 21:29:26
 
Auda

 

Posts: 217
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

however in general,it should occur an attempt to bend slightly at the middle joint as well


That what my finger does. However that draws the palm towards the fret board and can be problematic(muting) especially on the low E. I like Andy's pinky because it does not do that though I would never wish it on anybody for it to be locked.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2020 22:03:06
 
kitarist

Posts: 1431
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

Here is a little exercise I came up with years ago. It has a nice mix of different tortures - arpegio to picado switching and barre chords with little scale runs played over them. I think if we ever do another Foro challenge I would nominate this exercise, to be played continuously at 100 bpm, see who can repeat it the greatest number of times. If you think your thumb and index are invincible this may challenge that notion To this day I can barely play it cleanly, though I can't say I have touched it much in the last few years.





This is a great exercise, Andy. I tried it and I really like how it works on arpeggio and switching to picado and back, while also holding barre and working the other fretting-hand fingers, and with the picking hand, it trains me to do only minimum required modification of hand position when switching between apoyando and tirando. I will try to record it soon. It is part of my warm up these days.

I experimented and can basically also do it without a thumb at all, because the thumb is supplying just a little bit of force, like a stick propping up the back of the neck a bit (rather than a vise grip between it and the barre finger); the rest is a small assist from my picking (upper) arm preventing the lower bout from moving away from my body. I used to do a strong vise-grip but it turned out that was unnecessary and is very tiring; so I worked on changing the technique.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2020 17:57:47
 
Stu

Posts: 1926
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Not nails, but when this all started. I kept washing my hand work fairy liquid (dish soap) and my knuckles on my first and finger joints began cracking.

Really sore and guitar paying became a torture!
I soon stopped washing then like that
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2020 9:06:39
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1098
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Now I have a clear answer. An empirical study finds out as long you have short and frequent rests while playing, your muscle won't get tired. A comparison taken from the study:

5 min work-out and 7,5 min rest (= 1 round) -> tired after 10 min work i.e. after the 2nd round.
2 min work-out and 3 min rest (= 1 round) -> tired after 24 min work i.e. after the 12th round
0,5 min work-out and 0,75 min rest (= 1 round) -> your muscle is not tired at all after 24 min work (after 48th round)

You may ask how to rest while playing. Relax your muscles by pulling and pressing down the strings with the weight of your left arm.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2020 13:20:23
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2955
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Konstantin, awesome, I'm glad it's helping you!

Stu, I read in the Juan Martin book that a tocaor should never wash the dishes, because it will make your nails dry and brittle. That excuse never did fly with my wife.

devilhand, very interesting study, thanks for that. I guess that's why you don't hold on to a barre chord for stupid amounts of time normally

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2020 15:21:52
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3194
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Well, there's barring over a long period, then on the other hand--wait, actually on the same hand--holding the same barre for a long time.

Lately I've been working on Faucher's transcription of Ramon Montoya's Rondeña. The score shows barring for 27 consecutive measures near the beginning of the piece. But you're moving around from C II to C III to....up to C V, and back down. And you're not playing all the barred strings all the time. So there are plenty of opportunities to relax for a fraction of a second, or to change which strings you're applying pressure to.

Later on there's a stretch of C II for 19 measures, and other lengthy barres later in the score, but again you're not playing the same notes all the time. Probably Montoya could have held the same barre for a really long time--but he didn't. And if you just think about it a little, you don't need to hold the same barre for a long time to play the piece.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2020 0:54:33
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3194
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

Stu, I read in the Juan Martin book that a tocaor should never wash the dishes, because it will make your nails dry and brittle. That excuse never did fly with my wife.



That's in the edition in my music files, but I heard they took it out of the later editions.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2020 0:57:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13240
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Well, there's barring over a long period, then on the other hand--wait, actually on the same hand--holding the same barre for a long time.

Lately I've been working on Faucher's transcription of Ramon Montoya's Rondeña. The score shows barring for 27 consecutive measures near the beginning of the piece. But you're moving around from C II to C III to....up to C V, and back down. And you're not playing all the barred strings all the time. So there are plenty of opportunities to relax for a fraction of a second, or to change which strings you're applying pressure to.

Later on there's a stretch of C II for 19 measures, and other lengthy barres later in the score, but again you're not playing the same notes all the time. Probably Montoya could have held the same barre for a really long time--but he didn't. And if you just think about it a little, you don't need to hold the same barre for a long time to play the piece.

RNJ


Here is a pretty accurate rendition by Kevin/Romerito/beni2’s guitar teacher. He doesn’t barre those beginning spots:



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2020 18:38:34
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3194
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Here is a pretty accurate rendition by Kevin/Romerito/beni2’s guitar teacher. He doesn’t barre those beginning spots:



Yes, I've tried it both ways. I doubt that there is any video of Montoya playing the piece.

I concluded I could probably make it work either way. The video clip makes it clear that on the part where the chords start a barre actually only needs to fret one string, so it's hardly any work at all. For me the barre is in fact a little more comfortable than the way Pedro Quadra does it.

By the way, Faucher's transcription says "capo on 3." My hands are a lot bigger than Montoya's, and I like the deep bass sound with no capo on my Blackshear Reyes negra.

Maybe I'll check the "Grandes Figures du Flamenco" CD to see how it sounds with the capo--and gut treble strings with wire wound silk basses.

Fifty years ago I used to play Mario Escudero's version on the Ramirez, copped off of some LP or other. I probably didn't have a Montoya record back then. Turns out Escudero's version was pretty close to Montoya's, though as usual Escudero didn't use a capo. It's been so long that now the Montoya version seems like a whole new ball game. I'm pretty sure I'm doing both left and right hand differently than I did before.

(Edit) Listened to Montoya on the Chant du Monde "Grandes Figures du Flamenco" CD. He plays it with capo at 3. Here it is on youtube:



Can't tell much about how the strings sound, since the original recording was on 78s in 1936. The sound in my head is without capo, so I'm sure I heard and learned Escudero's version long before I ever heard Montoya.

I'm pretty sure we played Montoya's Esteso at Brune's shop a few years ago, but it would have had nylon strings on it, and I don't remember capoing any of the instruments we played that afternoon.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2020 22:45:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13240
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

The double CD has alternate versions. The guitar sounds tuned down a half step, making strings action softer for the B tracks. The Rondeña sounds as capo 2, but as part of the B group I suspects it’s also capo 3 but tuned down. I like that it has different falsetas here and there than the version above. The Esteso I played at Brune’s was pretty stiff action, however, I’m not aware of evidence that it was used on any recordings. The talked about guitar for recording was Santos Hernandez.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2020 18:56:58
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3194
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for mentioning the double CD. I didn't know it existed. On Youtube the sound is much better than Le Chant du Monde CD. Just ordered the double.

Yes, Montoya's better known guitar was the Santos. In this interview from 1937 he mentions a Santos "the flamencos call la leona de Montoya", and says it has been with him for 27 years.

That would date it to 1910. A possible problem with this is that Santos worked for Manuel Ramirez until he died in 1916, then worked for Ramirez's widow for a few years after that. Maybe it was a guitar made by Santos in 1910. After all, everyone seems to agree that Segovia's 1912 Manuel Ramirez was made by Santos. If it was made in 1910 Montoya's Santos would have had a Manuel Ramirez label in it.

https://tinyurl.com/y85m9b72

An issue of Guitart magazine mentions a 1922 Santos "in the collection of Giovanni Accornero" that belonged to Montoya, but according to the interview with Montoya it wouldn't be the one he had with him in Buenos Aires in 1937.

https://tinyurl.com/y9h2r5aq

I found a clearer version of the left hand photo on the Youtube clip. The guitar's headstock is Santos' pattern.

In the left hand photo it looks like maybe he has a capo on II. In that case, he would be barring the second (and recurring) chord of Rondeña--assuming he was in Rondeña tuning....has to be coincidence, no? In the right hand photo he's fretting the same strings, but at IV, no capo. That chord is not in the Rondeña on Le Chant du Monde.

My next scholarly discussion: Who really makes Conde guitars?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 19 2020 4:36:46
 
TonyGonzales84

 

Posts: 78
Joined: Apr. 23 2020
From: San Diego, CA

RE: How long can you hold a barre chord? (in reply to Andy Culpepper

But before we all head out to replow that Conde field, you may have a strong kernel of starting a scholarly discussion with a 1910 era Santos. At the risk of mis-quoting Richard Bruné, how would this guitar modify his line, "of the approximately 400 guitars built by Santos, only approximately 1,000 are still in existence."

The preceding was brought to all with tongue firmly in cheek!

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Tony
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 19 2020 22:11:08
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