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ViejoAmargo

Posts: 39
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
 

Flamenco website in English? 

I wonder what are your thoughts of having a bilingual (Spanish/English) flamenco website? The Spanish language is a fundamental aspect of flamenco music, in terminology and lyrics, so I'd assume most people in Flamenco have at least a working knowledge of Spanish. Another consideration is the fact that in Spain the flamenco focus is on cante, followed by baile, and then guitar, whereas outside Spain the focus is either on guitar (men) or baile (women), with cante as a distant third, almost as an afterthough. So even if there is an appeal in having flamenco articles and news in English (for those more fluent in English than Spanish), is the Spanish flamenco perspective relevant for the non-Spanish flamenco aficionados...?

https://www.expoflamenco.com/en

Thoughts...?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 17:49:47
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

Are you suggesting the establishment of a new, bilingual, Spanish-English flamenco website? Or are you suggesting nudging the current Foroflamenco website, administered by Simon, into a more bilingual forum? I would not support the former, as it suggests abandoning the Foro, which has provided a wealth of information and entertainment. In fact, there have been some Spanish language articles reproduced on the Foro, and nothing prevents the use of Spanish among those of us who are proficient.

Let me suggest an alternative for consideration. Although I think the Foro is just fine as it is, how about considering within the Foro a discussion group devoted entirely to things flamenco in Spanish? This discussion group would take its place alongside others already in existence such as "General," "Lutherie," "Off-Topic," etc. The potential problem I see with that is the likelihood of a lot of duplication among the English and Spanish flamenco discussion groups. I'm not keen on a separate flamenco discussion group in Spanish, but let's see if there is any interest in it. I would not support the establishment a separate Spanish language flamenco website, however. Let's remain loyal to the Foro.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 18:53:03
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

quote:

Another consideration is the fact that in Spain the flamenco focus is on cante, followed by baile, and then guitar, whereas outside Spain the focus is either on guitar (men) or baile (women), with cante as a distant third, almost as an afterthough. So even if there is an appeal in having flamenco articles and news in English (for those more fluent in English than Spanish), is the Spanish flamenco perspective relevant for the non-Spanish flamenco aficionados...?

I'm confused by these words in bold letters.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 21:38:45
 
ViejoAmargo

Posts: 39
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Are you suggesting the establishment of a new, bilingual, Spanish-English flamenco website? Or are you suggesting nudging the current Foroflamenco website, administered by Simon, into a more bilingual forum? I would not support the former, as it suggests abandoning the Foro, which has provided a wealth of information and entertainment. In fact, there have been some Spanish language articles reproduced on the Foro, and nothing prevents the use of Spanish among those of us who are proficient.

Let me suggest an alternative for consideration. Although I think the Foro is just fine as it is, how about considering within the Foro a discussion group devoted entirely to things flamenco in Spanish? This discussion group would take its place alongside others already in existence such as "General," "Lutherie," "Off-Topic," etc. The potential problem I see with that is the likelihood of a lot of duplication among the English and Spanish flamenco discussion groups. I'm not keen on a separate flamenco discussion group in Spanish, but let's see if there is any interest in it. I would not support the establishment a separate Spanish language flamenco website, however. Let's remain loyal to the Foro.

Bill


No no no... You got ahead of me... I wasn't suggesting any changes to THIS forum... Now, full disclosure: I'm involved with the webiste I linked above (www.expoflamenco.com, www.expoflamenco.com/en is the version of that same website in English). That website has been around for over 4 years, and we aimed to appeal to a global audience (thus the decision to have it bilingual in Spanish and English). Yet, just about 10% - 15% of our traffic is for the content in English, and this has remained basically constant for 4 years... I've come to think about "why", and I believe the 2 points I mentioned in the OP are relevant, namely:

1. Most flamenco aficionados have a working knowledge of Spanish, thus they feel no interest on a website with news / articles in English (that website has no discussion area, so it doesn't compete in any way with foroflamenco.com, it's a different concept)

2. The flamenco interest in countries other than Spain is mostly in flamenco guitar and flamenco dance. In Spain, most flamenco aficionados care mostly about cante. Since the content of that website's (www.expoflamenco.com) is written in Spain, it reflects this "bias" towards cante, which in turn can put off English-speaking flamenco aficionados, I think

I just wanted to hear unbiased opinions from English-speaking flamenco aficionados about this. I didn't want to say upfront I was involved with that website because I didn't want people to "hold back" their opinions (if someone thought the concept was silly, or the website was terrible, I wanted to hear it plain) but since apparently it was misconstrued that I was suggesting changes to THIS website, I rather say it clearly...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 0:21:04
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

For me the problem is that the two audiences are different (as you point out to some degree). And not only in the subject matter that interests them and the languages they speak, but also culture, economy, social circumstances, …… Therefore, any translation (unless it is very bland stuff) will invariably fail to satisfy the audience the writer was not focused on. And if written trying to appeal to both then may doubly fail to give satisfaction.

I believe that non-spanish speakers, (which normally means not resident in Spain) are interested in the flamenco scene on the peninsula, but rather than a translation they would find a review/analysis (certainly with translated quotes from spanish materials) more interesting. Something that gives context. For example, on this forum members discuss opportunities across Spain to enhance their flamenco experience. My Spanish flamenco friends here discuss events local to Jerez. One group looks for broad brush initially then homes in, the other starts with specifics. Possibly a poor example but to summarise: tailoring the content to the specific audience is more important than the language of the author.

As for Spanish speakers, who do not read English, I think you are looking at a very small number who have an interest in the non-Spanish speakers view of flamenco. And in any case they have access to many more targeted materials.

Of course, there are many different people out there but if that site you link to is going to survive I’m sure it needs a broad audience. My fear would be that by trying to cast the net wider via translation, that the end product will be devalued.

Just my general thoughts but I think to add anything further one would need to see mission statements, target audience definition and marketing plan. But good luck with it.

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 4:11:29
 
Brendan

Posts: 358
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

What is this story all about?

https://www.expoflamenco.com/en/actualidad-en/ricardo-pachon-is-no-longer-director-of-the-instituto-andaluz-de-flamenco

Who appointed this guy? What did he do to get sacked? Who is likely to be appointed now? Where are the quotes from angry people? Where are the off-the-record briefings from people manoeuvring to take advantage of the interregnum?

I’ve obviously been watching too much masterchef. I find myself writing that this story has great ingredients but is badly under-seasoned.

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https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 10:58:19
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

Please replace Spain with Andalusia in your posts first, then we'll talk. We all know Andalusia is in Spain. However, when it comes to flamenco, we should use the correct word, which is Andalusia.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 11:04:33
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

lease replace Spain with Andalusia in your posts first, then we'll talk. We all know Andalusia is in Spain. However, when it comes to flamenco, we should use the correct word, which is Andalusia.


Devilhand that is a bit harsh. Flamenco is found all over spain. Many migrants from Andalucia can be found in large numbers in Catalunya and throughout many other parts. Flamenco travels with them.

And Farruca originated in Galicia

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 11:16:29
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

Flamenco is found all over spain. Many migrants from Andalucia can be found in large numbers in Catalunya and throughout many other parts. Flamenco travels with them.

The same goes for the rest of the world. The North, Middle and South America, France, UK, Germany, Russia, Japan etc. If not in large numbers, but a significantly high number of migrants. Not only in Spain.

quote:

And Farruca originated in Galicia

Guajira comes from Cuba. I'm listening to Guajira at the moment. One of my favourites.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 11:36:03
 
Piwin

Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

If you can, I would look at geographic distribution of traffic instead of language per se. If the bulk of your trafic is coming from Spain, then that's that. As for an international audience, I'd just point out that flamenco has sufficient appeal that there are publications in plenty of languages other than English. While English makes sense for a forum like this one, I doubt many, say, French people will go out of their way to read an English publication about flamenco. Unless of course you are offering something that nobody else is. That's not for me to judge, but, well, that competition with publications in other languages might be something to consider if you want to increase your readership in English.

As for cante, dunno. Honestly I don't find the overall picture to be all that different in Spain. I think you're defining "aficionados" as "people who go to the pena every week", or something along those lines, in which case you're absolutely right. But widening the scope a bit, I find that the overall trend is the same, with dance by far being the more popular discipline, followed by guitar and then cante. Or to put it another way, if you think the focus on cante is what is keeping away the English-speaking readership, then I'd suggest that focus is also keeping away a significant share of potential readers in Spain. I don't think that's reason to change what you guys do, not at all. Just, perhaps it can help reframe this as a more general question instead of "Spain vs international".

I would also guess that there is a lot less interest abroad in many of the news items around concerts, awards and the like. I doubt many people in, say, Japan particularly care about what concert X is doing in Y city in Spain. Unless of course there is the possibility for them to view the performance, but otherwise, people will naturally be much more interested in flamenco near them, which is usually already covered by publications in their own mother tongue.

PS: not sure what the bit about Andalucia has to do with anything devilhand. Off topic.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 13:15:27
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

quote:

I wasn't suggesting any changes to THIS forum....but since apparently it was misconstrued that I was suggesting changes to THIS website, I rather say it clearly...


Perhaps I was unclear in my response, ViejoAmargo. I was unsure whether your idea was to start up a new Spanish-English flamenco website/forum or if you were suggesting the possibility of a Spanish flamenco discussion group within the current Foro. I was not supportive of the former because it seemed an attempt to hive off a portion of the Foro membership. Thus my suggestion that a Spanish language discussion group be considered within the context of the current Foro. In any case, thanks for clarifying (for me) your idea.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 17:05:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14995
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

If the issue is doing too much work for only the 10% ers, why not have one site in spanish, with links to only selected articles in English. The ones those 10% are most typically interested in?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 17:09:07
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

quote:

And Farruca originated in Galicia

Guajira comes from Cuba. I'm listening to Guajira at the moment. One of my favourites.


And Sabicas came from Pamplona, the capital of Navarre in the greater Basque region of Spain.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 17:11:02
 
ViejoAmargo

Posts: 39
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

Thank you all, BarkellWH, devilhand, flyeogh, Piwin, Ricardo, for your feedback (also Brendan for actually checking out the site )

Piwin, good point that in Spain we may be missing out the non-cante aficionados just like in the rest of the world if the main content is about cante. Most of our contributors are hard-core flamencos and I guess they gravitate towards cante, although we try not to neglect baile and toque...

Ricardo, yes, the Spanish content is all good (it's what "drives" the site), and although we translate most of the articles to English, we don't translate things that are a bit too local... Yet, we also like to give the international audience the "flavor" of what's going on in Spain/Andalusia, so if our resources permit we'll also translate topics about "local flamenco" in Spain/Andalusia.

devilhand, I applaud your pasion for Andalusia, but like flyeogh pointed out, while flamenco originated in Andalusia, it also flourished beyond it... Flamenco is also strong in Extremadura, Carmen Amaya was from Barcelona, Sabicas from Pamplona, etc.... Then there is Madrid, where so many flamenco artist went to make a living and where there's a strong afición. Even so, note that in my OP I never even suggest flamenco is a "Spanish thing", I was just trying to compare the flamenco scene in Spain (not just Andalusia) vs flamenco outside of Spain. Having said that, this makes me wonder whether flamenco aficionados from Andalusia are radically different that those in other parts of Spain...?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 21:29:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

I checked your website and got so engrossed in reading articles (in English) i forgot to come back and tell you... although i am probably more interested in guitar articles i would say overall i am less interested in reviews of shows, homenajes and prizes etc and more interested in interviews with artists revealing their ideas about their art; their approach to learning, practising and performing; their feelings about tradition and evolution; and their personal contact with other artists they learned from and/or worked with and/or hung out with and anecdotes etc. whether guitar, cante or baile.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 22:04:08
 
ViejoAmargo

Posts: 39
Joined: Jun. 29 2016
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

I checked your website and got so engrossed in reading articles (in English) i forgot to come back and tell you... although i am probably more interested in guitar articles i would say overall i am less interested in reviews of shows, homenajes and prizes etc and more interested in interviews with artists revealing their ideas about their art; their approach to learning, practising and performing; their feelings about tradition and evolution; and their personal contact with other artists they learned from and/or worked with and/or hung out with and anecdotes etc. whether guitar, cante or baile.


Thank you for the feedback Mark. Indeed, we have tons of interviews (most video, but also written). The written interviews end up being quite long and we've only translated a few so far, of higher-profile artists (e.g., Antonio Canales, José Mercé, etc.) and we've just started putting English subtitles in video interviews (of our 1st video interview of Farruca, https://youtu.be/bBQEDKtcCeA ). It's rather laborious but the goal is to have English subtitles in all the video interviews... and keep translating written interviews of higher-profile artists...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 23:52:45
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to ViejoAmargo

quote:

Having said that, this makes me wonder whether flamenco aficionados from Andalusia are radically different that those in other parts of Spain...?

I want to know that too. Why not publish an article about it and elaborate more on that by doing interviews with aficionados from both region?
It could be also interesting to read about status quo of flamenco as an art in Andalusia, how is it evolving in which direction etc. So I'm not biased towards flamenco guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2020 16:05:07
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 112
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

It could be also interesting to read about status quo of flamenco as an art in Andalusia, how is it evolving in which direction etc. So I'm not biased towards flamenco guitar.


This is a massive topic -- there have been entire books written on it, and in order to responsibly have a conversation about it, there are all kinds of cultural politics that you'd have to navigate. I struggle to imagine a short article being able to shed much light on what's really going on.

As for the website, I liked the content a lot, though I found that it was better written in Spanish than it was in English. One thing to consider when thinking about an audience beyond Spain: how do you make the argument for cante? It's necessary to explain its cultural importance (you could even do this through the lens of toque by highlighting the career of someone like Juan Habichuela, for instance). What can the letras tell us about the ways in which flamenco views the world? What about the vocal delivery itself, and the bodies singing? Explaining the significance of Antonio el Mellizo managing to sing "con dolor," for instance, might be helpful to those not in the know (that's a great story, though -- I hadn't heard it before). Just a few thoughts. For what it's worth, I really enjoy what you're doing now (but then, I have already been sold on the centrality of cante, so I am part of the choir to which you're already preaching)!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2020 21:18:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14995
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to tf10music

quote:

Antonio el Mellizo managing to sing "con dolor," for instance, might be helpful to those not in the know (that's a great story, though -- I hadn't heard it before


Let’s hear it!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2020 22:04:32
 
tf10music

 

Posts: 112
Joined: Jan. 3 2017
 

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Let’s hear it!


The story? It's in one of the articles on the website:

https://www.expoflamenco.com/bordonazo/anecdotas-flamencas-tomas-pavon-camaron-chocolate-perro-de-paterna
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2020 22:48:16
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Flamenco website in English? (in reply to tf10music

quote:

quote:

Antonio el Mellizo managing to sing "con dolor," for instance, might be helpful to those not in the know (that's a great story, though -- I hadn't heard it before


Let’s hear it!


not for the squeamish...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 17:25:24
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