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In one of Sabicas' pieces I am working on shows a G played on low E and a open G to be played at the same time with a golpe. Should I be playing it with p and i with an a golpe? Seems a bit awkward so is this the typical way it is played?
It is Aires De Puerto Real transcribed by Faucher. I am fairly certain he is the transcriber because all the pieces appear to be scanned copies from El Rey Del Flamenco.
I also have a question on another Sabicas piece Aires de Triana I am working on transcribed by Trotter with whom I know you are familiar. It shows a chord with ami above it but with an arrow above that like the arrows for finger strums though a bit shorter. Not sure what that means.
It is Aires De Puerto Real transcribed by Faucher.
You mean this, circled in red?
It is actually a mistake - there is a legato missing (I added it in blue) - the 2nd string B sound carries over from the previous measure as shown below. There is no third string G being played.
Hmm, this is confusing as I drew it as I didn't correct the pitch. Maybe forget the legato marking, the point is, I don't think Sabicas actually plays third string G. There might be sympathetic vibration of open string G as he plays 6th string G, but not actual stroke.
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edit: good find Konstantin! In the Rey del Flamenco recording I hear golpe (rather muted, so maybe just flesh?) without open G. Here, Javier Conde does open G without golpe (52 seconds in):
I wonder if he was working off of Faucher's transcriptions and just chose the note over the golpe. I seem to recall Ricardo suggesting that Faucher might purposefully leave small mistakes/variations but I forget the reason.
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That's the one - thanks Konstantin! There is another "mistake" 4 measures after that where a slur would require a pull off but the music shows it being played by p?
I appreciate people taking the time as I have said I am new to flamenco so I am not sure if they are mistakes or a new technique with which I am unfamiliar.
Yeah it can't be both. I play a pull-off but not sure what Sabicas was doing. In the recording it doesn't sound like a pull-off to me. Unless he's doing that classical business of doing a full-out rest stroke with the left hand, in which case you could get that strong sound with a pull-off. Dunno.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
There is another "mistake" 4 measures after that where a slur would require a pull off but the music shows it being played by p?
Do you mean this, in the red ellipse? I think there is no slur there, so maybe the p is warranted; but of course if you play it as a a slur, you wouldn't need a second p stroke.
If you are that exact, there is a slight mistake in the previous measure, for example - the red rectangle. It is not a triplet, but 2 16ths and a 8th note, as played.
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I seem to recall Ricardo suggesting that Faucher might purposefully leave small mistakes/variations but I forget the reason.
Apparently so that he can identify, by what people are playing, if it were one of his transcriptions and thus catch people who got it without paying :-)
Yeah, that was what I asked about. Thanks for observation on the other bit. I see in the Conde video the capo is on the third fret but it seems in Sabicas rendition in the link below the capo sounds as if it is on the second fret. Do you guys think that is the case?
Apparently so that he can identify, by what people are playing, if it were one of his transcriptions and thus catch people who got it without paying :-)
HA! Sounds like it's time to call Javier Conde and ask him if he bought Faucher's transcription or if he just ripped it from some shady Korean site like me.....erm....m....mean! yeah that's right, mean people! That's what I meant. Mean people, ripped it like mean people do. Of course I didn't mean me. Of course not. Never mind. I'll be offline for a few months. I just remembered I had to drop by the embassy of a certain non-extradition country.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Apparently so that he can identify, by what people are playing, if it were one of his transcriptions and thus catch people who got it without paying :-)
That’s what people have said, certainly. But since he doesn’t own the rights to any of this music, and in fact his transcriptions are clearly ‘derivative works’ infringing the copyright of those who do own the music (as witness the alleged Cease and Desist order regarding Lucía’s material), it’s hard to see what purpose this serves (beyond satisfying his own wish to know).
Or am I missing something?
(Not that I begrudge him the income, I hasten to add. He’s performing a service that the record companies and other legal owners either can’t be bothered with, or perform anywhere from moderately incompetently to extremely incompetently — so good luck to him.)
I don't think so; you are correct. He cannot really take any legal action against those who have not purchased his transcriptions as the transcriptions themselves are on shaky legal ground, to put it mildly.
Both the author of the work and the copyright holder (if different) of a recording of that work have exclusive rights to producing derivative works - such as a transcription. Out of the possible limitations of these rights, the only one that may be claimed is fair use; except in this particular case, fair use is pretty clearly not applicable.
I also have a question on another Sabicas piece Aires de Triana I am working on transcribed by Trotter with whom I know you are familiar. It shows a chord with ami above it but with an arrow above that like the arrows for finger strums though a bit shorter. Not sure what that means.
Apparently so that he can identify, by what people are playing, if it were one of his transcriptions and thus catch people who got it without paying :-)
Absurd don't you think? Who would play the wrong notes?
I bought an arrangement of a Bach piece in the 80's which had some incorrect notes in it. I was familiar with the song so I simply replaced the wrong notes with the correct ones when I memorized it. I hadn't been playing guitar for that long.
When the only way to copy sheet music was to use a photocopier it made sense to include wrong notes as a sort of proof mark. If someone was dumb enough to copy or publish the arrangement it would be obvious.
Apparently so that he can identify, by what people are playing, if it were one of his transcriptions and thus catch people who got it without paying :-)
Absurd don't you think? Who would play the wrong notes?
I bought an arrangement of a Bach piece in the 80's which had some incorrect notes in it. I was familiar with the song so I simply replaced the wrong notes with the correct ones when I memorized it. I hadn't been playing guitar for that long.
When the only way to copy sheet music was to use a photocopier it made sense to include wrong notes as a sort of proof mark. If someone was dumb enough to copy or publish the arrangement it would be obvious.
I’ve related the story in the past. He was proud of his work... he could have been hired by plygram or hispavox if the publisher gave two sh1ts about flamenco, which they don’t of course. So we either get no score or bs scores used only for collecting royalties. Under the table BY EAR is the god damn tradition of learning flamenco, so arguing about hand written scores is freaking hilarious. Every flamenco guitarist makes his own by ear transcriptions illegally inother words... including sabicas who slowed down the turns of his montoya records to learn up in Pamplona. That is just as illegal as putting pen to paper
In any case, Faucher’s mistakes came in handy after he started publishing legit books (that myself and msybe 5 other guys ever bought? Lol), and lazy guys like over at encuentro end up just copying whatever he did for Moraito nunez or tomatito for example, only adjusting for specific obvious deviation from say the original recorded versions. Low and behold the tiny subtle mistakes are copied and NOTICED by Faucher (and myself to be honest, like a kid cheating on his math test, same correct and same mistakes), and yes he call marcel edge or whoever over there in Switzerland and cussed them out over the phone for stealing his work. Seriously doubt any thing else came out if it than the scolding. I noticed some Faucher errors by jorge Berges as well, so the guy is not kidding, people steal his stuff and pass it off out of laziness regardless of the (c) going on, which is a joke anyway.
About sabicas score above first G example... there is no Open G and no golpe either, just some fret buzz.
I didn't realise I was in such an exclusive group having purchased one of his books. Thanks for the input on the open G though I am fuzzy on what is meant by "fret buzz".
I am also a bit confused as to how rasgueados are written down on paper and how they are executed. As an example in the 2 videos above the very first rasgueados in the piece appear to my ear to be different. In Sabicas' version the 2 five finger rasgueados at the beginning sound evenly spaced in time to give a continuous sound whereas the Conde version the rasgueados seem to be 2 separate five finger rasgueados. On paper it would seem that is should sound continuous. I wonder if when written there is a need for convention whereas musically it might be difficult to truly express on paper due the limitations of these conventions. I am resolved to struggle with it though.
I didn't realise I was in such an exclusive group having purchased one of his books
It would probably help his case if his website wasn't so...well...behind the times? Maybe that's the most polite way of putting it. It doesn't exactly make purchasing easy. His books (like the Rey del Flamenco transcription book) are easy to buy through other platforms but a lot of stand-alone transcriptions (just one piece, often manuscript) are passed around fairly commonly. On the foro everyone avoids that, as the rules state that you can't:
quote:
4. Upload, or otherwise make available, files that contain images, photographs, software or other material protected by (i) intellectual property laws, including, by way of example, and not as limitation, copyright or trademark laws or (ii) by rights of privacy or publicity, if any unless you own or control the rights thereto or have received all necessary consents to do the same.
(makes me wonder if it was alright to post those few screenshots. I'm fairly certain that under French law posting one page like that is fine, but I don't really know for other countries)
But IRL those things are passed around without a care in the world for IPR. There's probably a comparison to be made with jazz fake books.
In many ways, youtube has made transcriptions more or less obsolete. I learned Aires de Puerto Real from that recording of Javier Conde. I have the transcription too, but it's more of a back-up I guess. A better student would have been able to pick it up from the audio recording of Sabicas alone, but I have a much easier time seeing someone play it. I learned Riqueni's Brisas with a video of Grisha. So, even when you can't find video of the original composer/performer, you can often find versions by reputable players.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
I am also a bit confused as to how rasgueados are written down on paper and how they are executed. […] I wonder if when written there is a need for convention whereas musically it might be difficult to truly express on paper due the limitations of these conventions.
IMHO Paco Peña and Diana Sainsbury solved the problem very nicely in Toques Flamencos, and I’ve used their conventions in my own transcriptions ever since, saving me hours of work.
As far as I can make out I seem to be alone, though.
It would probably help his case if his website wasn't so...well...behind the times?
That is my feeling as well. I have been in the market for an Almoraima transcription and would have liked one by Faucher but as you said it isn't easy so this morning I purchased the Lieva transcription from another source.
I do not think you would get into to much trouble posting a small portion of music since it is similar to quoting an author.
I wish my abilities were better at picking up music by ear but alas that is the way it is. That and it would take too much time better spent elsewhere just now.
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