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edguerin

Posts: 1519
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

Relationship / origin of palos 

Hi folks,

just came across these two graphs, and can't make sense of the "Toná / Fandango" or "Toná / Fandango / Romance" classification. I wasn't able to find any explanatory text to these pix, so can anyone help? Ideas?





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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2019 17:58:21
 
JasonM

Posts: 1075
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

Tona and fandango as the foundation of flamenco are maybe just the seeds of the tree. They probably don’t hold much resemblance to what flamenco evolved to nowadays.

The original Tonas were sort of like little song fragments as the name implies. Passed along via memory and might be named after the person who sang a particular version of the tona. Some might have a Christian context to the lyrics.

The fandango, I don’t really understand what it ”originally” was. Popular Andalusian folk song/dance perhaps? I think eventually there were all different kinds of versions.

Then there is the Romances or “everything else” category. Stuff picked up from all around or folk songs from other places. Cuban Guajiras, Catalonia rumbas etc.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2019 16:47:02
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2681
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

Sixty-five years ago when I began to study flamenco I came across various versions of the "tree" representation of the ancestry of various palos. They disagreed in detail, at times in principle. None were supported by historical documentation. They relied upon the oral histories supplied by flamenco artists.

The game called "telephone" in America illustrates the unreliability of oral transmission. The players sit in a circle. One player whispers a short sentence to the player to one side, who whispers it to the next player, and so on, until the sentence comes back to the originator. If there are as many as five or six players, the sentence has been altered in transmission, sometimes humorously. Anyone who has played the game gives due respect to "oral history": very little.

For many years the earliest written sources for "flamencología" were from the 19th century. The writers were folklorists or collectors of letras. Not being trained musicians, there were no musical transcriptions. Palos were described in terms of the metrical form of their letras with only vague descriptions of music or dance.

Once flamenco was brought into universities by left wing professors in the mid 1970s, it began to attract the attention of formally trained musicologists, who based their historical narratives on written musical documentation.

A product of this kind of academic endeavor is "La llave de la musica flamenca" by the brothers David and Antonio Hurtado Torres, which I read several months ago.

The Hurtados trace the Fandango back to musically notated examples from the early 18th century. They cite documentary evidence of its African and Afroamerican origin. They point out that their was a fairly large population of slaves, of African birth or descent, in Sevilla in the 16th century. They cite frequent legal prohibitions of the performance of Fandango, in common with other musical forms of origen negro.

Furthermore, they derive the 19th century emergence of soleá from the earlier forms of polo and jácara. Modern transcriptions of jácara are readily available from the works of the 17th century guitarist Santiago de Murcia.

The Hurtados scrupuluously follow academic discipline, with full citations, footnotes and bibliography. They also include a long chapter of musical scores and a CD of early recordings.

My only real criticism is that they sometimes assert that certain forms (flamenco or pre-flamenco) did not exist prior to the earliest documentation found so far. Of course, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

But they reliably contradict the pre-1970s flamencología often enough to throw the whole corpus into serious doubt.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2019 21:09:27
 
edguerin

Posts: 1519
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

I'm inclined to agree with the "telephone" approach (here in Germany the game's called "silent mail" = "Stille Post"). To my understanding - although I haven't been at it quite as long as Richard 😊 - the palos siguiriya, soleá, toná and tango are the basic forms, which more or less is what's depicted in the diagrams. But to relate tonás (or tonadas, which is what Jason describes) with the "cantes autóctonos" and the "cantiñas" in the way shown in the graphs doesn't seem to make sense, and I wasn't able to find any information where that idea emerged.
Or maybe I'm reading them wrong, and toná, fandango and romance aren't supposed to be related to the individual palo-families but are simply meant to be seen as foundation for ALL further development. So yes, they'd be the seed of the tree (or perhaps the soil in which it grows?), but not part of the trunk or main branches ...

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2019 9:42:37
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 144
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

There's no generally accepted categorization I guess. Everyone has their own opinion. I used mainly the following source to generate my own categorization of the complex jungle of the palos.

https://www.horizonteflamenco.com/cantes1
https://www.horizonteflamenco.com/cantes2

That's what I got. A screenshot of an excel file. If it's good or bad I don't know. Please feel free to share your opinion on that so that we can generate our own foroflamenco categorization.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2019 15:00:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

Well basically when you can actually sing some of these melodies a different picture appears. At least if you care to draw musical conclusions, which not many flamenco artists need bother with. Here is how i see things:

Saeta->tona->martinete/debla etc->siguiriyas(fast->slow)/cabales

Romances->buleria->solea/jaleo->tango->tiento->tanguillo*->rumba*

Fandango(line A)huelva styles and sevillanas*———————(oddly these took long to evolve)———->naturales (personal versions, free style or with other compas treatment)
Fandango (line B) ->verdiales/rondeña/jabera/fandango de lucena—> cantes levantes
Cantes levantes- malagueña-> granaina-> cantes de La Mina (Minera, Taranta, Taranto, cartagenera,levantica)

Jota->Cantiñas->Alegria Romera mirabra tiri tiri tran pinini->bulerias de Cadiz all with compas treatment of solea or buleria.

*= depends on what specific melody is sung as these forms might be referring to specific songs not FORMS, and sometimes outside of what we consider flamenco vs folk music. Sevillanas has flamenco elements in common w fandango but is always outside of flamenco proper.

Serrania- polo caña etc use compas treatment of solea but are similar to levantes cantes, melody wise but not form wise. Liviana, serrana same idea but with siguiriyas compas treatment.

Compas treatments : solea, Buleria, tango, tiento, tanguillo(zapateado for example), abandolao. Examples fandango por solea, or Taranto para baile uses tiento type compas.

Other songs are not really forms but specific songs that only have a single lyric set which might get hacked up and mixed but not really open ended forms as the rest above. Including caracoles Alegria de Córdoba guajiras (solea or buleria compas) colombiana tanguillo de Cadiz etc. Farruca and Tangos de malaga might also be included however Tangos de malaga has a form based style. Both get either tango tiento rumba etc compas treatment.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2019 15:40:28
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 144
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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

There's a lot of information in your post to be absorved. Since compas is important for guitarists, we could draw 2 dimensional categorization for baile and cante. For example, on the left side we can put compas treatment for cante and baile each. That means rows represent the type of compas for dance and singing purposes. Does it make sense? If it gets compicated we can draw 2 seperate graphs for baile and cante. Columns remains maybe more or less the same as above. I know there's some improvements in the way I categorized. For example we can add forms of different locations. Mr. Marlow could you do it for us? Maybe you have already created your own categorization - a nice overview on this topic. It would be great if you could share it with us.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2019 13:19:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to devilhand

The thing I mapped out was relation of the songs as they are sung. Different map needed for baile or guitar perspectives. For example:

Siguiriyas dance form: martinete/tona/carcelera etc-siguiriyas letras, footwork, macho (fast partial siguiriyas letra)

Solea dance form: solea de Alcala or Serneta etc very slow-transition footwork-solea de jerez or buleria por solea-transition footwork- buleria.

Tiento dance form-tientos-transition footwork-Tangos- optional transition up tempo to rumba.

Alegrias- Cantiñas intro, choice of Cantiñas letra (Alegrias most common) attatched colatilla Cantiñas letra- silencio (guitar solo)- Castellana (Cantiñas colatilla only)-transitition footwork- bulerias de Cadiz.

Taranto- cante de La Mina libre intro (normal cante of any style)-cante de la mina set to compas of tientos (Taranto of Manuel tore most common)-transition footwork to Tangos- optional rumba (all very much like tientos baile).

Other dances are simpler (relatively speaking of course) extrapolations of the above structures.

Guitar map is much simpler with large groups of songs tied to key and compas treatment combinations.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2019 15:26:05
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

Thank you very much. I think I need 10 more years to digest all these. One thing is sure I'm here in this forum because I love the sound of flamenco guitar accompaniment for cante and baile. I don't understand why folks wanna play solo flamenco guitar first. I do believe, beginners should start with a topic like this.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2019 16:18:36
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2681
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

The thing I mapped out was relation of the songs as they are sung. Different map needed for baile or guitar perspectives.



An important point. The old time flamencólogos emphasized the metric structure of letras in their writings. The academic musicologist Hurtado brothers emphasize cante, and to a lesser extent guitar accompaniment. They pay little or no attention to details of baile.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2019 22:03:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

The thing I mapped out was relation of the songs as they are sung. Different map needed for baile or guitar perspectives.



An important point. The old time flamencólogos emphasized the metric structure of letras in their writings. The academic musicologist Hurtado brothers emphasize cante, and to a lesser extent guitar accompaniment. They pay little or no attention to details of baile.

RNJ


The lyrics are most often 8 syllables that get worked into any compas situation. Furthermore, before modern baile constraints and orthodox practices, there was no consistent coupling of verses to compas. I feel that flamencologists wrongly lump together songs based on how they were accompanied. For example Alegrias or caña get lumped in with solea, when in fact tientos or Tangos is more musically similar to solea.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2019 13:06:49
 
edguerin

Posts: 1519
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

So here's my synopsis (FWIW):



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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2019 18:14:55
 
wilson s

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Nov. 22 2018
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

the palos of flamenco from America:
tanguillos/tientos/tangos compas (tango cubano)
rumba compas (guaracha cubana y rumbitas campesinas)
guajiras (punto cubano)
colombianas (mexico)
peteneras (mexico)
milongas (argentina)
vidalita (argentina)
i found this graph on flamencopolis.com
it is Faustino Núñez's website. he has many videos on youtube talking about the history of flamenco palos


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2019 20:36:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Jota->Cantiñas->Alegria Romera mirabra tiri tiri tran pinini->bulerias de Cadiz all with compas treatment of solea or buleria.


Ok, made a profound realization yesterday. I was reading a booklet inside a CD where they were talking about the “Fandango de Cadiz”, of which was referenced in some literature in 1785, and supposedly preserved by some folks near Sevilla, this melody appeared to be the roots of the familiar Alegrias melody of today. I started messing around, and while not the lyrical structure however most of the melodies in Cantiñas family fit the fandango form! It’s pretty crazy now it’s very obvious to me, even though the trad accompaniment completely disguises it. Only a few melodic notes require alteration here or there, or phrasing of the words. So I would actually scratch that jota deal (never convinced me anyway), and make a third branch of Fandangos, starting with fandango de Cadiz with compas treatment of solea taking over as the other melodies evolve into the various Cantiñas forms. Even caracoles has some obvious fandango elements preserved in its melody, and it’s the unique one in the family that resolves to phrygian. So I would also throw that one back in there.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2019 13:11:02
 
kitarist

Posts: 692
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

So I would actually scratch that jota deal (never convinced me anyway), and make a third branch of Fandangos, starting with fandango de Cadiz with compas treatment of solea taking over as the other melodies evolve into the various Cantiñas forms.


Why don't you write it up and submit it to a proper international journal? I am not kidding.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2019 17:16:57
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 67
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

So I would actually scratch that jota deal (never convinced me anyway), and make a third branch of Fandangos, starting with fandango de Cadiz with compas treatment of solea taking over as the other melodies evolve into the various Cantiñas forms. Even caracoles has some obvious fandango elements preserved in its melody, and it’s the unique one in the family that resolves to phrygian. So I would also throw that one back in there.


Hi Ricardo. Does the Fandango de Cadiz melody predate recording technology? Do the Cantinas melodies fit because their meter is similar? Which Fandango melody specifically serves as the root and for which alegrias melody (some begin on a different scale degree and have a different tessitura)?

I agree that you should publish because scholarly articles tend to be written by scholar NON-practitioners, although that is beginning to change. You should also send anything to scholar-practitioners for review. A few people with scholarly and flamenco backgrounds come to mind if you decide you have the time.

Interesting stuff.

Fandangos de Cadiz
http://www.flamencopolis.com/archives/264
This is just one example but I am not convinced of a connection. Researching...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2019 20:30:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Beni2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beni2

quote:

So I would actually scratch that jota deal (never convinced me anyway), and make a third branch of Fandangos, starting with fandango de Cadiz with compas treatment of solea taking over as the other melodies evolve into the various Cantiñas forms. Even caracoles has some obvious fandango elements preserved in its melody, and it’s the unique one in the family that resolves to phrygian. So I would also throw that one back in there.


Hi Ricardo. Does the Fandango de Cadiz melody predate recording technology? Do the Cantinas melodies fit because their meter is similar? Which Fandango melody specifically serves as the root and for which alegrias melody (some begin on a different scale degree and have a different tessitura)?

I agree that you should publish because scholarly articles tend to be written by scholar NON-practitioners, although that is beginning to change. You should also send anything to scholar-practitioners for review. A few people with scholarly and flamenco backgrounds come to mind if you decide you have the time.

Interesting stuff.

Fandangos de Cadiz
http://www.flamencopolis.com/archives/264
This is just one example but I am not convinced of a connection. Researching...


So the description I read was talking about a reference to this fandango in the year 1785, obviously before recordings. The point of the article was that an aficionado discovered some people near Sevilla were singing it and claimed to have preserved it, and his observation was that it sounded similar to Alegrias of today. Not clear WHAT they were singing and whether the example given on that site is the exact same melody or not. But all that is beside the point that several Cantiñas melodies CAN fit the Fandango FORM with minor alterations. For example, Camaron famous letras:

Aunque pongan en tu puerta (G-C)
Cañones de Artilleria....now here the melody drops down to B natural. If you replace the ONE NOTE with what the fandango de Cadiz does (Bb-A), but keep the ENTIRE REST OF THE MELODY UN TOUCHED, it’s a perfect second line resolution to F major.
Aunque pongan en tu puerta (G-C)
Tengo que pasar por esto (C-G)
Aunque me Cuesta La vida (G-C)
Tengo que pasar por esto, Aunque me Cue... (C-F)
(Cue)sta La vida (F-E)

I understand the lyrics are not functioning like Fandango, but please note that except for ONE NOTE in the second line, the melody notes and phrasing/timing can work completely unchanged when we replace alegrias chords with fandango chords, outlining the structure underneath the melody.

The other melody you know of alegrias that instead starts on tonic (C) and drops down (to G), actually functions totally un changed as the final melodic note of the Second line and 4th line are both F natural, meaning the first time you play F chord, second time the G7, and the final resolve which repeats lyrically, again, you see drops to E natural, meaning the first time is G-C chords, then the last time your F-E resolution just like fandangos, and the example above.

Playing around with other melodies, buleria de cadiz, the colatilla, etc, you can see similar ways of bringing in the fandango harmonic structure underneath the melody. Of course some are way more of a stretch than others, but my point is that unlike Solea melodies or Siguiriyas melodies, these songs in the major key seem to have evolved OUT of the fandango form type phrasing. I think the first thing to happen was probably the second sung line that pulls to F major was replaced by G7 (already we see some fandango based melodies doing this such as Jabera), and finally some guitar player didn’t bother to resolve to E for the final phrase and went back to C because it still harmonized just as many fandangos do going back to C despite the voice singing E. I would think later the melodies such as buleria de Cadiz or tir tir tran tran type melodies reflected this as well by dropping down below E to C for the resolutions.

Again please note that Caracolos is a closer fit to fandango form as you have your “cafe de union.....Tato y Juan Leon” phrase which is almost exactly your C7-F, F-E conclusion of Fandango. Back to your Fandango de Cadiz example, you can hear the “como reluces....te queiro yo...” note for note melodic phrases in there. Again, I wouldn’t want to go through note by note to try and match up what came from where because after all it’s just 7 notes getting mixed around and of course you will find totally unrelated exact phrases. I am more concerned about the over all general structure here and how these songs get lumped together and categorized for the sake of learning.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2019 12:55:03
 
JasonM

Posts: 1075
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Why don't you write it up and submit it to a proper international journal? I am not kidding.


In what? Paleoflamencology Review
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2019 16:05:40
 
kitarist

Posts: 692
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

Why don't you write it up and submit it to a proper international journal? I am not kidding.


In what? Paleoflamencology Review


close. "Ethnomusicology" may be a possible one but there are others. I see from quick browsing that people also publish flamenco musicology articles in "Journal of New Music", for example. Also, in "Journal of Musicological Research".

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2019 17:10:45
 
Piwin

Posts: 2437
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Why don't you write it up and submit it to a proper international journal?


And throw all his street cred out the window?! That would be flamenco suicide. Flamenquicide!

_____________________________

J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2019 21:28:08
 
Beni2

 

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RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Piwin

Agreed!
Just don't talk about it at all? When ethnomusicologists who also do flamenco walk in a room with experienced flamencos they shut the hell up, listen and learn. Unfortunately, the opposite is not also true. There are flamencos who think they know how to do history, ethnography, or music theory with no training or understanding of theories and methods in those fields.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2019 23:58:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Aunque pongan en tu puerta (G-C)
Cañones de Artilleria....now here the melody drops down to B natural. If you replace the ONE NOTE with what the fandango de Cadiz does (Bb-A), but keep the ENTIRE REST OF THE MELODY UN TOUCHED, it’s a perfect second line resolution to F major.
Aunque pongan en tu puerta (G-C)
Tengo que pasar por esto (C-G)
Aunque me Cuesta La vida (G-C)
Tengo que pasar por esto, Aunque me Cue... (C-F)
(Cue)sta La vida (F-E)


Just wanted to add that the ending can also be altered for a more perfect fit. I noticed the fandango de Cadiz also does the Bb-A melody to call in the F chord at the end as well, so the end of “tengo que pasar por esto” is another spot that goes to C-B natural on “esto” that is an easy switch out to C-Bb and if the singer holds the A note on the “o” vowel, the guitar can go to F and the “aunque me cuesta la vida” would conclude F-E like normal. The same move would serve to function the other famous melody of Alegrias that I described as it’s almost the same as this one, only the starting of the melody is different.

I’m in the middle of a big flamenco show now with three knowledgeable singers, and I demoed my Alegrias fandango, and they just nodded in agreement “yep, totally bro”... as if this was already common knowledge. So much for flamencology

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2019 11:46:50
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 67
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I’m in the middle of a big flamenco show now with three knowledgeable singers, and I demoed my Alegrias fandango, and they just nodded in agreement “yep, totally bro”... as if this was already common knowledge. So much for flamencology

Only took you a couple of decades. 😉
But seriously, flamencology has always been about the search for practical and/or historical knowledge, for an informed public and sometimes by flamencos themselves. I don't see how you didn't just engage in the very thing you seem to debase...flamencology.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2019 15:33:15
 
kitarist

Posts: 692
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Beni2

quote:

I don't see how you didn't just engage in the very thing you seem to debase...flamencology.


You guys have some history, eh? Or else I don't see how this comment is justified by the thread....

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2019 17:20:35
 
Piwin

Posts: 2437
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Beni2

quote:

There are flamencos who think they know how to do history, ethnography, or music theory with no training or understanding of theories and methods in those fields.


Some fields of expertise seem to invite a Dunning-Kruger effect more than others. My former field of translation/interpretation was like that. Lots of people who are convinced they could do it better than professionals even with no training and who get offended when shown otherwise.

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J'ouvre une parenthèse. Si vous avez un peu trop d'air, je la refermerai tout de suite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2019 18:13:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11365
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Beni2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beni2

quote:

I’m in the middle of a big flamenco show now with three knowledgeable singers, and I demoed my Alegrias fandango, and they just nodded in agreement “yep, totally bro”... as if this was already common knowledge. So much for flamencology

Only took you a couple of decades. 😉
But seriously, flamencology has always been about the search for practical and/or historical knowledge, for an informed public and sometimes by flamencos themselves. I don't see how you didn't just engage in the very thing you seem to debase...flamencology.


I’m not debasing the academic study of flamenco.... rather the idea I might publish an article about this, or any of my theories really, just seems funny to me. I would be constantly going back and asking editors to revise the stuff

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2019 21:43:58
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 67
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to kitarist

quote:

You guys have some history, eh

😂
Ricardo has been a pillar of the foro. He is probably the most knowledgeable and experienced person except for Jason MacGuire's short stint on here. My issue has never been with Ricardo or any other member personally. My issue is with using culturally loaded concepts without understanding, and maybe Piwin can appreciate this, the implications of their cross-cultural, including linguistic, translation.

Furthermore, some people want to throw out the analytically insightful baby out with the flamencólogo bathwater. This is the opposite of Dunning-Kruger; it's academic over-confidence coupled with the notion that only academics can have important insights. I'm thinking of Mr. Jernigan's claim that scholarship by scholars like Hurtado Torres is overturning previous flamencology. I think Mairena holds up rather strongly with only some arguments that need revisiting and even so, the are some critiques of Hurtado Torres as well.

There surely must be a middle way!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2019 21:48:49
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 67
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to Beni2

Metaphor theory emerged in the last 20 yrs or so. As a sub branch of the study of embodied cognition it has changed the way we understand culture, cognition, language, etc.

Flamenco charts tend to use a biological metaphor, often in the form of phylogenetic trees. The jaleo begat the soleá begat the "x." However, flamenco palos are not biological entities. It is possible that a subgenre borrows a melody but puts it in a different chord structure, which itself might be borrowed from an altogether different palo.
Other metaphors have been proposed to describe the mixed origins of a musical genre.

To bring several threads together one could say that the solea gets the descending tetrachord from lament genres and the passacaglio/ciaccona. More directly, it is preceded by the "soledad," the jaleo [don't think jaleo extremeño], and the fandango. These influences ARE documented although the arguments are not definitive or absolute.

Furthermore, the myth that the cante preceded the toque or baile is beginning to be put to rest. Many genres were danceable FIRST, then turned into cante pa'lante.

PV
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2019 22:10:44
 
wilson s

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Nov. 22 2018
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 9 2019 2:22:22
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2019 1:59:31
 
wilson s

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Nov. 22 2018
 

RE: Relationship / origin of palos (in reply to edguerin

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2019 2:25:11
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