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RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues   You are logged in as Guest
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henrym3483

Posts: 1516
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to edguerin

Kevin,

why not survey monkey survey? easy to use.
i'll fill it in for you anyway
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2019 8:23:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12223
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2

Gerardo curso is July 14th-20th... more info here:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317181&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Regarding your analysis, things you are doing different than what I did:

I think you need to explicitly name your modulation to D phrygian there like “D:III-II-I”....if you DON’T do that then you are simply miss naming your chords “II-bI-VII”, which of course is nonsensical, although you do have your bracket there, it is just helpful to the reader to know what key you are now in. Next naming your Vdim chord instead of F...again I normally wouldn’ have a problem here as the harmonic info is so scarce, it’s just a 4 note melody really....also forgot to mention earlier the Low E string is still ringing under this passage IMO, changing it all back to “I” truly....however the move vdim->II is what you did there....not really how I view it but it works I guess. In flamenco context I feel it’s more or less the same harmony going on for me there....Fmj7#11 captures all the info. Remember in phrygian I am reducing down to “V” via the “II” chord instead so any opportunity to do that I think is better.

Next your V/II (Bb->Eb modulation), as you know, is the relative major “cambio” in D phrygian. You seem to be allowing for a modulation here (V-I in key of Eb as second tier) which is fine. Again, if you ever name a new “I” you have to do this “Eb:V-I”....otherwise a SECONDARY DOMINANT function (V7/II->II) is fine, no key modulation needed. At least that is how I learned way back in school. Applying to flamenco, I retain secondary dominant function for Solea, but would do your modulation to major for Fandangos...if that makes sense?

Next, your grand “V” under your pseudo Andalusian cadence in B....Well, again, I feel you are conflating the idea of phrygian Roman numerals, where there is no V7 chord, with normal tonal use of them. In other words, E phrygian doesn’t borrow the B7 from Major key like E minor has to, because we already have the II-I move which is V-I equivalent. So I feel if you want to call that a big V, you have to first show the key modulation to E minor or E major, or name such an intent...other wise you need to start all over and do your analysis in E MAJOR from the start using borrowed harmonies elswhere, UNTIL that spot where yes a big V makes sense.

Finally your ending compas goes from iv->I...with no cadence indicated. Personally I would reduce the last two bars to II-I, again it’s just a decending scale, however, your andalusian cadence is contained within and it’s really the whole point of the falseta coming back to E phrygian IMO.

You again mention modes as not being used here, I guess you don’t understand what I was getting at about my use of them. Again, I am not talking about static drone modes here. I digress. Anyway you mentioned “phrygian gestures” in your grand V section....same idea. “Lydian gestures” if you will.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2019 10:36:51
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to edguerin

quote:

I'm sure you're aware of M. Machin-Authenrieth's 2013 Thesis. As an ethnomusicologist he describes the quandaries and problems of online-questionaires and field research in forums.

I have a copy of his dissertation and bought the book version but it is late in my process. I am reading up on his chapter on virtual ethnography though.

My dissertation looks at the solea as a cultural phenomenon that different practitioners of flamenco experience in different ways because of their overall cultural backgrounds. After introductory chapters laying out the aim, scope, theories and methods I devote one chapter to historiography (not history, but rather how different people interpret history and/or write about it), the vocal/musical inflections utilized to convey grief, despair, melancholy, etc., the process of learning and embodying the solea with musical analysis, and the intertextuality of practice and theory, with the last chapter summarizing and making suggestions for further research.

I too have been worried about cannibalization but at this point I am so close that I am just throwing catuin to the wind hoping that no one publishes similarly before I do.
My background is as an ethnomusicologist. I am ABD with about a semester left.

@Henry
quote:

why not survey monkey survey? easy to use.
i'll fill it in for you anyway

Just learned about this through you. Thanks.

@Ricardo
quote:

Anyway you mentioned “phrygian gestures” in your grand V section....same idea. “Lydian gestures” if you will.

Great response. Phrygian inflections and gestures already have a literature and its growing. THe descending tetrachord can be traced back to Spanish Baroque pieces and phrygian inflections have been used as "emblems" of lament in Western music. Sometimes they are hidden and have little to do with their source...for example, Bach's Chaconne uses the descending tetrachord obscured by diatonic and chromatic fourth sequential movement. IMO this is no coincidence. The passacaglio and chaconne are of Spanish origin and they both make use of the descending tetrachord (depending on the composer and instance).

I agree with much of what you say but your modal terminology has no connection in practice or theory with flamenco. Discussions of phrygian and the descending tetrachord, on the other hand, are part of the a long line of both practice and theory, connected by Spanish Baroque gutiar practices and treatises. Flamenco is not "pure" in much the same way that race, or ethnicity, is not pure. Even less so, because ideas can be shared, appropriated, circulated, modified in the process known as transculturation. That's why Mairena was careful to define the verb "crear" and acknowledge that the creation of something out of nothing is a very biblical view of creation. He substitutes the term "forjar." You don't forge a horseshoe or weapon from nothing, the materials must be available. He claimed that his ingroup created flamenco out of hindu, Arabic, Sephardic, Byzantine chant, and other materials all available to them through cross cultural contact.
I go a step further but can't share that here unfortunately.

By the way, as much as you have typed, you could have answered the questionnaire already. I took me about an hour or so. No worries, you have shared some other insights. Maybe I can work "lydian inflections" in although I do think that bass lines do determine harmony. Thanks.

PV
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2019 18:35:36
 
Brendan

Posts: 208
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to edguerin

Machin-Autenrieth’s thesis is very good, and includes the only methodology section that ever caused me to laugh out loud (and I’ve read a few). He explains his approach is essentially to hang out with flamencos in Granada in their usual haunts and get them talking without trying to direct them to his topic. He observes “While I wanted to elicit responses and opinions to specific questions regarding the regionalisation of flamenco, I still wanted to enable the interviewee to give his/her own story. On the other hand, this open approach meant that at times I had to listen to extended monologues. Some of these narratives were not directly relevant to my research aims.“


I’ve got answers to this questionnaire but I’m not going to post them in public. I can send them to you but there are too many characters for the messenger on this site.

_____________________________

https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2019 20:23:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12223
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2

quote:

By the way, as much as you have typed, you could have answered the questionnaire already. I took me about an hour or so.
you see that’s exactly my problem. I can’t give those concise answers.... I feel a lot of the questions are loaded with stuff I would need to expound upon in detail with examples and counter examples, objective and subjective observations etc. probably not what you really need

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2019 13:59:22
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

feel a lot of the questions are loaded with stuff I would need to expound upon in detail with examples and counter examples, objective and subjective observations etc. probably not what you really need

The question could or should be answered in whatever way you see fit. But I understand time constraints. No problem.

@Brendan: I think if you look real hard you can find Mullins, Samtani, and Wheeler dissertations. All are pretty interesting.
Reading up on virtual ethnography today.

PV
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2019 17:11:49
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 391
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to henrym3483

Had same thought - some of it would require heavy use of 'other' and typing, but would remove considerable amount of typing and make collating responses easier.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2019 18:19:13
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to henrym3483

quote:

Kevin,

why not survey monkey survey? easy to use.
i'll fill it in for you anyway


Hi Henry. Would you care to preview the SurveyMonkey questionnaire? I make some minor changes but it is more or less the same. Some people would like to preserve anonymity it seems so this might help with that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2019 20:41:50
 
Arash

Posts: 4409
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
I detest nationalism, the idea that you are blindly loyal to the country of one's birth does not resonate with me. I have been to better places.


Nationalism has been a strong component of the American collective psyche since the 18th century.


I think the deep cause for all the "toxicity" or this unexplainable anger in recent years in US, UK and some european countries is not so much real nationalism (or racism), but simply a reaction or overreaction to globalisation which made the individual feel less and less important, specially in western countries. Basically an anonymous insignificant number amoung billion of other numbers who just has to function without being recognized. Our brains are wired to function in small "tribes", have an important role in that "tribe", the world got too complex, too anonymous. too connected too fast for a lot of people. People feel unimportant and powerless, but they can't express exactly why, so they become depressed and angry and blame individual instances and events, when the real reason is much more complex and severe.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 9:09:40
 
edguerin

 

Posts: 1537
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 31 2019 15:11:13
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 15:10:59
 
edguerin

Posts: 1537
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to henrym3483

Hi Kevin,
PMed you the questionnaire broken down into three parts. As the messenger doesn't seem to support images, here's the tabulature to the peteneras-falseta I mentioned:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 15:29:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12223
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
I detest nationalism, the idea that you are blindly loyal to the country of one's birth does not resonate with me. I have been to better places.


Nationalism has been a strong component of the American collective psyche since the 18th century.


I think the deep cause for all the "toxicity" or this unexplainable anger in recent years in US, UK and some european countries is not so much real nationalism (or racism), but simply a reaction or overreaction to globalisation which made the individual feel less and less important, specially in western countries. Basically an anonymous insignificant number amoung billion of other numbers who just has to function without being recognized. Our brains are wired to function in small "tribes", have an important role in that "tribe", the world got too complex, too anonymous. too connected too fast for a lot of people. People feel unimportant and powerless, but they can't express exactly why, so they become depressed and angry and blame individual instances and events, when the real reason is much more complex and severe.


Well, I don’t like off topic tangents, and I remember Kevin getting upset about it before, but I am finally gonna state here that this “toxicity” etc in the world today is BS. The entire world is now connected only by social media. Even in “real life” the keyboard warriors are involved and out at the bar and such regurgitating their virtual world to everybody. Otherwise intelligent people in my circle I see trapped in a world of their own making where their soda straw view of sharing and “liking” things has created a bizarre world where there is a line in the sand that has become literally a “wall” of their own making where you are either on one side of it or the other side.

You are a person who sees right wing conservatives=bible thumping, gun loving, sexist white racist ignorant wackos that want to destroy the environment.

Or you are a person who sees Left wing liberals= Immoral, unborn baby murdering socialist anti vaxxer maniacs that want to remove all freedoms starting with your guns and right to burn coal, forcing you to pay for drug addicts problems, and invite rapists into our suberburbs.

There is no middle ground you are either on one side or the other. I can count maybe 3 or 4 people in my circle that don’t identify on one or the other side and are as shocked and disturbed as I am at the insanity going on around us. People are all trapped in a bubble of their own making, a warped lens through which they view the other people around them, and it’s their own fault IMO.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 17:43:19
 
Escribano

Posts: 6049
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I am finally gonna state here that this “toxicity” etc in the world today is BS


I couldn't disagree more

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 17:51:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12223
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Escribano

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

I am finally gonna state here that this “toxicity” etc in the world today is BS


I couldn't disagree more


I get it, and you can roll your eyes, but human beings can’t be “toxic”, their point of view is simply not accepted by you and others you align with and therefore you want to distance yourself from them. The world didn’t used to be like this, people used to be more accepting of opposing view points and ideals, but now it’s zero tolerance at every level. I’d be willing to bet you have more in common with the most “toxic” individual you personally know over there, than you might think. The world seems to be in some kind of huge family feud in my eyes.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 17:58:38
 
Arash

Posts: 4409
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Ricardo

I completely agree that there is no more middle ground but a few extremes, on all sides. But that doesn't mean there is no toxicity. It just means that the toxicity is everywhere on all sides. And that these point of views which have almost all become extreme views one way or another, are poison for humanity as a whole and long term, therefore toxic. People seam to feel safe and protected in these two or three factions demonizing everyone else. You're more or less forced to join one "group", or you better be quite and hide in your little complicated world in your head where everyone is right and wrong at the same time, since everybody will then be against you. I see this behaviour more and more and feel more and more alone in my views since almost nobody is accepting any reasonable discussions or my view that there is truth in every point of view and wrongs in every point of view and that sometimes there is simply no right or wrong answer. If thats not toxic, then I don't know what is.
edit: sorry I agree this doesn't belong here, maybe Simon can move these posts to offtopic "toxicity" or something

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 20:46:04
 
Escribano

Posts: 6049
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Italy

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Arash

quote:

sorry I agree this doesn't belong here, maybe Simon can move these posts to offtopic "toxicity" or something


Nope, let's just leave it there.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 21:15:30
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to henrym3483

A few authors have commented upon the politics of flamenco that tend to accompany discourses of ownership, racial and cultural purity, and origin. Groups that are oppressed tend to bolster their ethnic identity and in-group ties. It's interesting to me that "white" people in the US [payos in Spain] are so concerned with the growing toxicity. In the US anyway, toxic oppression is the norm for minorities. The question is how do the oppressed and oppressors move the conversation forward. I'm not sure that conversation will ever happen because the money in politics ensures one group will prevail over the other and it is human nature to fear and blame the outgroup.

The answer for me seems to "Be the change you wish to see in the world!" Difficult, but possible.

PV
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2019 23:11:10
 
chester

Posts: 769
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to henrym3483

To bring things back on track --

What's all this about "doing away with theory"? What does that even mean?

Ever show a student how to play an a-minor chord? Did you give them a name to call that finger shape/group of notes? Congratulations, you've used theory.

How are you going to "do away" with that?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2019 0:34:09
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to chester

quote:

To bring things back on track --

What's all this about "doing away with theory"? What does that even mean?

Ever show a student how to play an a-minor chord? Did you give them a name to call that finger shape/group of notes? Congratulations, you've used theory.

How are you going to "do away" with that?

I agree but there is a distinction between folk theory and scientific theory. Music theory seems to lie somewhere in between on the continuum.
"Music theory" as a concept usually refers to formal music training especially as learned at a higher institution.

Actually, Am is a concept. According to some cognitive scientists concepts lead to conceptual models in conceptual domains and the connection of these become theories especially when expressed in language.

Unfortunately, most people are turned off by academics and academia (sometimes for good reason). Theory becomes this inaccessible language. [At least some of the toxicity, at least in the US, seems to cut along political lines and there is a strong correlation with political alignment and education].
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2019 1:32:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12223
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to chester

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

To bring things back on track --

What's all this about "doing away with theory"? What does that even mean?

Ever show a student how to play an a-minor chord? Did you give them a name to call that finger shape/group of notes? Congratulations, you've used theory.

How are you going to "do away" with that?


As Kevin points out, using music theory for both abstract analysis and also in practical application for composition or improvisation say, you end up with theory being a musical tool. I don’t think there is much arguement there. However there are different methods and terminology for those tools depending on the SPECIFIC discipline you are talking about. In other words, like language, the jazz theory is different than the baroque theory. In the case of flamenco, again there is a different language going on. To say “do away with”, I personally mean, and Kevin as well I assume, means stop imposing the jazz or classical vocabulary on the genre that already has it’s own language in place. Unless you want to specifically relate or translate that language to people coming from one of the other disciplines.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2019 10:45:01
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Arash

quote:

People seam to feel safe and protected in these two or three factions demonizing everyone else.


Nothing new to science. Neither regarding this example or other aspects named above.
In respect of this very example, seeking common ground between parties incapable of constructive dispute and nearness among themselves, focusing on strangers alienation (from next village / province or overseas) serves for covering lacking means of communication and for entertaining false mutuality.

Further, the weaker personality the more supporting to it being identification with local custom and insignia (much of passion with groups sports like soccer lives from it).

However, to named "toxicity" there is more than that, like leveling approach of misconstrued idealism and empty significance which tries to ignore social and contextual validity in culture.

The sober and right way to do would be to examine any culture (naturally including one´s own) by measures known in philosophy, social and behavior science and ethics that make the base of humanism. So, that unsocial and destructive believes, traditions and customs would be identified and tackled.

These kind of believes commonly consist of subjectivity and disinformation enhancing and preserving pillars. To a thinking species however, encouraged subjectivity as in metaphysics, superstition / religion present principle counter production, retardation and estrangement among people, as well as between them and the profane world.

With enlightenment having basically halted and been substituted through superficial and unfinished adaption of intellectual cornerstones, culture has been declared taboo / untouchable object, and superstition been equalized as freedom of mind / opinion.

A fundamental mistake that is retarding, and fueling toxicity and irreconcilability.

Straying "philanthropism" that thinks it of help to build everyone a house of god, change laws to enable circumcision, religious slaughter etc. has not explored basics of humanism, deconstructivism and progress.

Over 200 years after Kant at the latest, we should know so much better than the current absurd confusion of out of all feeding antiquity.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2019 15:22:35
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: Dissertation Blues (in reply to henrym3483

Note to self: always copy text before pressing enter in case the post doesn't go through.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2019 19:38:15
 
JasonM

Posts: 1439
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2

Yup been there done that. Copy text
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2019 1:03:47
 
Beni2

 

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 23 2018
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2

Weird times. Just saw Adam Neely video which he unfortunately titled "Music Theory is Racist" and then edited to "Music Theory and White Supremacy." So yeah, that's where we are regarding music theory. His point is, I believe, to demonstrate how power structures perpetuate the Western canon at institutions of higher lerarning. He's a jazzer so I am sure he has experienced this first hand. As an ethnomusicologist in the USA I find it disturbing that these power structures exist and that we aren't renegotiating them.

For example, yes, keep Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, and many others. But in a state like New Mexico where there is actually a flamenco dance program and the hispanic population is the majority, do we really need a class on John Cage. My tax dollars are going to "4'33." Come on man! I learned flamenco at the university with an expatriate who WAS, in my opinion and my experience, the top of the top as an improviser within and outside of flamenco. Not famous and super humble, just my opinion having taken "master classes" and studied with a few established flamenco guitarists. After the 2008 crash the department axed the flamenco guitar track, which was not really geared toward a degree like the dance department but there were three levels and ample opportunity to study and get credit for it if one so needed which menat THEY GOT RID OF HIM.

Anyway, I don't get on here because my posts have to go through admin first. I visit though. I hope every one remains healthy going into the fall flu season. I also hope you are all ok financially. Take care, and yes, still got the blues.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2020 20:56:43
 
Brendan

Posts: 208
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
 

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2

I’ve been enjoying Adam Neely’s videos. The one about one-note sax solos is especially good, and I applaud his zest for ridiculing Ben Shapiro.

The one about white supremacy and music theory seems to me to be a model of how to argue this point, and bears on the discussion we’ve been having here.

_____________________________

https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2020 10:56:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12223
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Beni2

quote:

Weird times. Just saw Adam Neely video which he unfortunately titled "Music Theory is Racist" and then edited to "Music Theory and White Supremacy." So yeah, that's where we are regarding music theory. His point is, I believe, to demonstrate how power structures perpetuate the Western canon at institutions of higher lerarning. He's a jazzer so I am sure he has experienced this first hand. As an ethnomusicologist in the USA I find it disturbing that these power structures exist and that we aren't renegotiating them.


Yes, when my teacher posted the video last week I thought about you and some of our discussions. I love my teacher very much, but had to roll up my sleeves and type my critic of the video with one finger on my phone, very frustrating and difficult to do. I was worried about the push back I might get, but I got no argument surprisingly. So glad it didn’t cause problems since everybody is so racially conscious these days. I wasn’t able to express everything in that, but will try to fill in some things i missed here. First of all here is the video:



Let me say I like Adam videos normally. But he begins by admitting Western classical Music theory doesn’t work good for explaining other styles. Basically what I have been saying for decades....each genre is it’s own DISCIPLINE and has it’s own “Theory” or terminology and system for learning, composing, analyzing, UNDERSTANDING what’s going on. Conflating two or more systems causes problems IMO, (as we saw here with Roman numerals and flamenco, but it goes across the spectrum of world music genres). For me that statement Adam made is where the video needs to simply END, or he could go into examples. But he doesn’t really say it exactly like that. And gets into two big problems that for me the video FAILS utterly.

1. “School” will be only dealing with teaching, in Colleges and grad schools, MAINLY CLASSICAL music focus. CONSERVATORIES, as I have always understood it, are designed to have other focus outside of that genre. Beyond those two major realities you will find SPECIAL teachers that might know about and offer classes that cover other topics, but that is always considered “exotic”, AND MORE ADVANCED. Some professors work their way up the food chain and can offer degrees and such which is great, and may be the big attractor for THAT school vs some other. So what is the problem with Classical music being the primary Academic focus (in USA lets say, but it’s probably world wide)?? Well...THERE IS A DAMN GOOD REASON WHY CLASSICAL IS THE FOCUS!!! People might NOT like it, but it basically comes down to EQUAL TEMPERAMENT and everything that goes with that. There is a logic behind the whole thing there, it’s not about no. 2 (below). I won’t go into all the arguments here but I am willing to for anybody that wants to open that door. As it is, I have no problem with COLLEGE level music studies to stay as such, I PREFER it that there are exotic options outside of the norm, it SHOULD be that way IMO.

2. Western Classic music Discipline and it’s theory practice and teachings are part of WHITE PEOPLE culture. Yes it’s true. It might also be true that some German Nationalists who had racist views wrote TEXT BOOKS. I have no problem discarding Text books of any subject if you don’t agree with the Authors tastes and attitudes beliefs etc. Theory text books are not pushing those ideas necessarily, and if they do, fine, trash em! I never used any text book in College because I knew the circle of 5ths already. It’s all you need. And knowledge of White German guys baroque/classical writing habits. It gets you through the classes. But is the WHITENESS of the composers and theorists part of a conspirator agenda to over take school acedemia? I don’t see it that way, because of n.1 above. And it is this point that the video is all about, that 1 and 2 here are inherently tied and can be blamed once again, like A440, on nazis. Total ****.

Why Adam fails? He had the opportunity when he pointed out different disciplines have their own theory, that the different genres also have their own equivalent to white German classicists....that being THEIR OWN MASTERS WHO ARE STUDIED AND ADORED THAT ARE OF A SPECIFIC RACE!!!!! Take your pick on the genre, but everybody knows that the hardcore artists involved feel that OUTSIDERS are not gonna have a natural easy time of mastering the genre at SAME levels their HEROES have achieved. It’s global and it’’s across the board, and it’s EQUALLY RACIST, Nationalist, tribalist, what have you. Imagine how many genres see the nerdy white classical guy attempting, now intruding on their stuff and they look at him “no way, you will never get it white boy!”. White people are believed to have the monopoly on superiority....they fuking don’t!!!!

How can Adam sit there and point out Indian music is cool and has it’s valid “theory” system and pretend that it doesn’t matter if you are from NORTH or SOUTH India as if those people are all the same as every other non white. The FACT he didn’t is in itself RACIST. But lets be honest.... the goal of the video is to once again demonize white people for the wrong reason. I go as far to say it’s the western classical that has embraced more racial diversity amongst it’s ranks that ANY OTHER GENRE.

Now go play your “blues” white boys! 😂😂

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2020 18:15:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12223
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: I'm Back: Dissertation Blues (in reply to Ricardo

For those that care, I took the time to go through all 7 videos that Adam recommended describing “schenkerian analysis”, in hopes to reorient myself with what his teachings were vs what I learned in school. Um, it’s pretty cuckoo actually and I don’t remember ever using something like his “analytical notation” vs simple standard notation. In fact I would say it’s extremely “specialized”. Basically the guy likes to reduce the complexity of classical pieces and re expand outward to higher levels of complexity. He starts as every piece is “I-V-I” and then tries to align “places” where his cadential info (he prefers counterpoint moving voices to vertical chord visualizations of harmony) “appears” to be following his reduction rules. It’s EXTREMELY contrived and requires removing rhythm UTTERLY from the first levels of analysis. In my brain is a huge “yikes! I hope kids aren’t learning to apply this across the board”. In a weird way I am glad he sticks to using the German classical music only with this method. But saddly as you see in the later videos his concept of rhythm and phrasing is not good. The example of Mozart given is, to my groove, wrong...sort of as if you were crossed in the half compas of solea and think you are pointing out half compas phrases that AREN’T EVEN HAPPENING!!!! But I must admit that was an example given and not sure if it is the video author’s own interpretation or a specific Schenker example. In fact this goes for the whole series, I am not sure if the guy is 100% got schenker correct.

He doesn’t use Roman Numerals much at all, and when he does, yes they are done incorrectly. II is always capital regardless the quality of the chord, because he is concerned about contrapuntal voices NOT vertical harmony. That is why he uses figured bass instead of Ramaeu Roman Numerals, so one can track a scale THROUGH a set of chords in ONE voice...again, in hopes he might “find” one of his reduction blue prints such as the 3 blind mice joke. If you forgot what is figured bass, it’s like chord extensions spelled out above a bass note. Like a C7 guitar chord in open postion:
10
8
7
3
(C bass note)

So if you see left to right you can track a melody like on the B string of the guitar (ex:8-7-8-9-10) and look for reductive patterns that align with some idea you have about the piece must be following (10-9-8...OMG! Bach was a white genius!!). As you go to higher levels of analysis the fill in notes that you ignored earlier might come into play (the melodic arcs of the cante as described by flamencologists might derive from this ridiculous reduction practice).

Early on he talks about Schenker’s view on modulation as the same as “moveable do” as we discuss in an other thread. Again, I don’t like this as it conflicts with Roman Numeral system I learned which embraces secondary dominant functions. He does away with this and claims “composition within a composition” sort of like C:{I-V[G:I-V-I]-I} type of thing. In other words he seems to have an aversion to the beauty of relationships governed by the basic circle of 5ths. He seems to be clinging to old modal views where melody is king and the concept of harmony is an emergent property of multi layers of voicings.

Finally here is his (or the video author’s?) take on Aug6 chords. FLAMENCO!!! . Oh the irony, at 21:23


So, in conclusion, I feel this Schenkerian thing is so FAR removed from what I understand Western Tonal Harmony theory and practice is about, singling this guy out and his questionable analytical system to represent ALL western theory practice as potentially “racist” is WORSE than I thought. Because the video Adam made leaves the impression that this Schenkerian stuff is ACCEPTED and exemplary Music Theory practice, which to me it is ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2020 16:25:20
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