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Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar?
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Escribano
Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar?
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Watching Tomatito the other night, I noticed that his rasgueados were mostly without thumb, i.e. non-circular. The Oscar Herrero Tangos lesson is the same, whilst the Granados lesson uses the thumb in rotation. Is this a matter of preference, or do you use a mix of both styles? I am trying both, but find con pulgar more efficient for Tangos as, on the 5th beat, the thumb comes down on the open 5th string and then i comes up on the open 1st string rather nicely. With sin pulgar. Hope this makes sense. BTW - Herrero rocks but I wouldn't have appreciated it a year ago, whilst Granados (even without video) can start you off, no question - different styles, but together they constitute a powerful arsenal of learning material.
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Date Oct. 11 2003 19:38:28
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Phil
Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain
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RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
What does PDL use, without watching Light and Shade again and what prevails in Andaluz? Simon, I think what prevails is what one's teacher taught him. Nowadays, with the proliferation of instructional videos and such, we're suffering from information overload and seeing all kinds of ways to do the same thing. Whereas, before all of this technology you just did whatever your teacher showed you. I just saw the Merengue de Cordoba Encuentro video and he does a p(up)xp! I've never seen anyone use that one before, but it works well for him. The most common rasqueados that I've seen in this area tend to be the p(up)mp and the amii. It's really difficult to tell if a guitarist is doing a p(up)am or p(up)mi unless they actually show you. I noticed that Paco Cepero uses the circular p(up)xami, which stuck out in my mind because I haven't seen other Jerez guitarists use it. Especially those that had Rafael del Aguila as their first teacher: Cepero, Parilla, the Jeros, El Carbonero, Gerardo Nuñez, etc. The bottom line is that you pick out a couple that you like, and get comfortable with them. Like Ron said, the important thing is that it sounds good. I've also noticed that they are interchangeable and it's up to the whim of the guitarist which he's going to use at any given time and it can vary within the same toque. So, if I were you, I'd pick out a couple and practice them until you can play them in your sleep and not worry about the rest. Although, I think the amii is indispensible. I don't think I've ever seen anyone who doesn't use it. Phil
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Date Oct. 11 2003 23:53:59
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (in reply to Ron.M)
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Ron, 'Best falls', I've got two boys, I was trying to interest the younger one with his pals just last week and was daft enough to do a demo, nearly broke my back, full forward roll! Still watching Big John, he was on today, Daktari, absolute mince! like my best fall. Cheers Jim
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Date Oct. 12 2003 17:10:57
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Guest
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RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (in reply to Escribano)
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Hola Simon In flamenco there are no rules about technique: everybody copies the hot guitarist. I have only 3 rasgeos: the 3 finger roll (mip) which everybody uses: it is simple contratiempo, muy de Jerez, the 4 finger roll (amip) which is fuller and my favourite but regarded as old fashioned. Por bulerias, a variation of the Paco Peña pai, which is seldom used in Jerez, except for dance, where the Marote roll is more popular. However, people who can really play (for example Juan Ramon Ortega from Cadiz), have an amazing variety of rasgeo: 2,3,4,5 fingers in all sorts of combinations for different effects. If it fits, use it (assuming that you know what sounds flamenco:-)) Sean
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Date Oct. 12 2003 19:55:01
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (in reply to Escribano)
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El Craic, it seems that technique is rather individualistic, although there are certain "universal rules." What is a bad habit? Does that mean an inefficiency in your playing, or something that your teacher doesn't do and therefore condemns? It seems to me that if you buy a few books on technique and read them thoroughly, you will be able to guard against most bad habits. If you chose to do this, get Classical Guitar Pedagogy by Anthony Glise, Advanced Flamenco Guitar by Denis Kostner, and some sort of beginning primer such as Juan Martin's. What this will do is give you a good idea of what is supposed to happen. If you combine this with consistent work with a mirror, most things will take care of themselves. When I was in Spain, the teachers gave a lot of 'feedback' to other students, and very little to me. I believe this is because I had studied the 'rules' of technique and tried to apply them to how I play. Another lesson I learned is from having 3 teachers, all of whose bodies looked completely different while doing many exercises. One guy's hand will fall over the edge of the guitar, the other will be straight up and down while one is bent, etc. I think you need to experiement to find out works for you. One universal truth is that you have to be extremely relaxed. Your arms and hands should feel like jello, almost--no tension at all! Once you can get that sensation, you can fool around to get comfortable, but if have tension in your hands nothing is going to work. Learning to relax takes a lot of work and should be an important part of your practice. Once you start on this track, you will be amazed and heartened by the progress that occurs. It will be like opening a door.
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Date Oct. 14 2003 19:07:39
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (in reply to El Craic)
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El Craic, Yeah, it's very frustrating, but I'm sure after seeing El Carbonero and Rafael and this other guitarist that you've got the rough idea of how to do a basic ragueado and some thumb technique! Practising with a metronome is good, and it's just a case of keeping at the basics until it starts to click. Remember, all these Flamenco "superstars" are all "backwards compatible". That is to say, they can all play very basic, very simple traditional falsetas with great feeling and rhythm. Some foreign guitarists prefer to miss that stuff out and jump straight into the difficult stuff. I don't know if that works or not, but what it does say, is that not only can these superstars play the amazing stuff better, but can play the simpler stuff better too. Don't know if you catch my drift on this! LOL! Why don't you stick a simple audio post up so folk here can maybe hear where the difficulties are and maybe be able to give some advice? Don't be shy, we're all learners here! cheers Ron
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Date Oct. 14 2003 20:25:32
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Rasgueados, con o sin pulgar? (in reply to Escribano)
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Speaking of, Ron, just two seconds ago I was practicing simple bulerias compas, using a solea por bulerias solo compas CD, and I thought of you. remember you said that someone told you that although you hit on 12, 3, and 10, the reason it didn't sound as good as him was that you wern't hitting the other beats as perfectly? Well, the solo compas has a clapping on lots of beats, and I bet you could just concentrate on hitting those non accents using the solo compas. One advantage over a metronome. Hope that helps. Back to work on compas for me!
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Date Oct. 14 2003 20:28:59
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