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"Flamenco IS fusion" is a tired argument!   You are logged in as Guest
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Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

"Flamenco IS fusion" is a ... 

Recently a dancer sent me a video of a well known baile teacher in Sevilla teaching a choreography to some reggeaton song. Needless to say my response was......"passionate disapproval" we'll call it.
Her defense of this is "flamenco itself is fusion so what's wrong with more fusion." This is not the first time I've heard this argument. "Sephardic music, Moorish music, Ida y vuelta bla bla bla". This seems like such a weak argument to me. Sephardic and Moorish influences happend hundreds of years ago and ida y vuleta is over 100. Why is it not allowed to be it's own unique and defined genre now?? Should we be calling Spaghetti with meat sauce fusion food because pasta comes from china and tomatoes come from the americas??? By this standard EVERY music is fusion of some sort.
If you want to make fusion that's fine but defending it by saying "flamenco IS fusion" is a really lame argument to me.
Partially a rant, but also want to hear some other opinions on this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 18:38:26
 
kitarist

Posts: 858
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

I am with you. Dance is not an independent art - it is an interpretation of music. Artificially separating the dance movements from the music and substituting a different musical core makes no artistic sense to me and has no integrity.

However, it has been happening whenever ignorance/arrogance and lack of curiosity for deep learning and understanding combines with mistakenly assigning inherent value to novelty in a competitive business interest environment. So both teacher and students end up gravitating towards what is easier to teach and easier to do, and more familiar musically.

This same thing has been happening in Argentine tango for the past 20 years.

What is especially irritating is trying to ride on the authenticity and credibility of the original by calling it flamenco / tango, attempting to benefit from association.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 19:00:05
 
Mark2

Posts: 1520
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

I've seen a lot of this in the dance scene. Flamenco dancers often want to do their thing to different music than flamenco, or add non traditional instruments. Personally I usually dislike the result. But it's not surprising they want to do it.

I've spent years studying flamenco guitar because I really really like the sound of it. I love the sound of guitar, palmas, cante. Spent more years learning to play for the dance in order to accompany it properly.

Finally start getting gigs and now the dancer wants a violin to do the falseta?? No bueno! Really? I learn all your breaks, played for your dance a dozen times, then comes the falseta, and you want to give it to a flute player who can't feel bulerias compas if his life depended on it??

Or they want to play a recording of some other music during a gig. I get it, because flamenco guitarists play other music besides flamenco plenty, so why shouldn't dancers have the freedom to dance their style to other music? I don't have to listen or care. And I usually don't.

"Oh, that falseta the flute, violin, trumpet, etc. guy played really killed me" is something I've never said.

I have to say though, that the reverse is not true for me. I don't want or need to have tap dancers dancing when I play flamenco. But...... there was this one time I was in a studio laying down a rumba and a hot looking belly dancer came in. We asked her if she could dance to our music, and she took a figurative look toward her boyfriend to make sure he wasn't looking. She opened her shirt and made a few moves while our tune was playing. We were smitten.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 19:09:59
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

Well, glad I'm not the only one at least. Been arguing over email about this for two days and it was making me crazy lol. She just keeps going back to "But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules."
AHHHHH No it's not! Just 'cus something influenced it 100+ years ago doesn't make it fusion!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 20:43:48
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2997
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

Agree completely, Lenny. That various elements went into the development of flamenco as we have known it, and know it today, does not in any way make it "fusion." Flamenco is a unique, well-defined genre and has been at least since the latter part of the 19th century.

I have come to intensely dislike the term "fusion," not only in music and dance but in other areas as well. It has become a catchall term for the intellectually lazy who don't want to adhere to the parameters and limits of a given genre of music or other activity. Much like the dancer you mentioned above, they don't want to put in the time and effort to learn something well, claiming that their more "free style" of performance is "fusion" and therefore just as valid. They are wrong.

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 20:50:58
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2997
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

"But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules."


This is exactly what I meant by the intellectually lazy. To say "there are no rules" in flamenco (or other genres) is not only ignorant but it means she doesn't have to actually learn anything. Just get out on the floor and "do her thing." Where does she think she's at and in what era--Woodstock?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 20:55:45
 
tele

Posts: 1431
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

As argument it's extremely lame, and I'm glad I've never heard it before.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 21:01:08
 
callemunicion

 

Posts: 85
Joined: Jun. 5 2017
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

I find it intellectually lazy to discuss something with people who share the exact same opinion about a topic. In this foro there a just a very few people thinking like this dancer you are talking about. So what are you expecting to get out of this discussion? I could say "yes, you are right" Lenador, but it wouldn't take us any further. If you just want to chat about something you are angry about it's fine, but it would be more fun with one or two beer
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 21:58:07
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

I’m not trying to pass a bill through Congress, why does every conversation need to “take us further.”. As stated it was partially a rant and partially curious what people thought. This is just a discussion, there doesn’t have to be a goal or end point, it’s just enjoying the human experience.
Besides, a little validation when you’re pulling your hair out feels good does it not?
And if someone wants to disagree that’s fine too, if they make a good enough point maybe I’ll change my mind.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 23:12:28
 
JasonM

Posts: 1275
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

Yes, you are right Lenny! 😝


I know most of you will strongly disagree but raggeton (sp) should not be even be considered a genre of music. It’s all the same damn song and beat over and over, like some kind of psychological implement of torture. Someone call the flamenco police.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 23:40:19
 
RobF

Posts: 613
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

I think to have a successful ‘fusion’ of anything there is the implication that those doing the fusing have a strong grasp and proficiency in working with all the elements being fused. Otherwise it’s probably just self indulgence or, as Bill suggests, mental laziness.

The clue here is the statement about no rules. That just sounds to me like the person is taking the easy route. Successful fusion implies hard work and a strong appreciation of the rules of the styles being fused.

It reminds me of some people’s take on fusion cooking...if the cook is BS’ing the food is seldom exciting, it’s often just inedible.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2018 23:46:50
 
RobF

Posts: 613
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

She just keeps going back to "But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules."


Lenny, I’m afraid trying to unwind that logic might make your head explode, lol. Just say ‘Irie’ and move on, lol.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 0:11:03
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1522
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

I think the developement of flamenco was over a very long time and it was very organic. Like Evolution.

Fusion is instantly, like Revolution.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 7:44:17
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7589
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

Well, glad I'm not the only one at least. Been arguing over email about this for two days and it was making me crazy lol. She just keeps going back to "But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules."
AHHHHH No it's not! Just 'cus something influenced it 100+ years ago doesn't make it fusion!


Flamenco is a formally defined musical structure. There are lots of rules.

Rule 1. Compas matters.

2. Thou Shalt own a Conde' for your lord God demands this of his children.

3. Compas matters

4. Thou shalt not commit gratuitous guitar soloing for it is a sin against God.

5. No Poofies.

6. Thou shalt stay in compas at all times. To go out of compas is a sin against God.

7. Flamencos may not eat before the gig for it displeases God. For those who eat before the gig a firey hell shall be ones eternal resting place.


8. Thou shalt not temp the singer into pop music letras nor cast aspersions against dancers for no reason and without just cause. Both are sins in the eyes of God and God shall punish for
these offenses.


9. In the eyes of your lord God taking a dancer in the bath room for the purpose of snorting of the cocaine and doing her doggy style whilst inJesting the cocaine is a sin. Thou shalt
practice the the snorting of the cocaine in the car outside the gig lest the manager of the restaurant demand of the cocaine for himself. For sayeth the lord if the manager gets too high
he may forget to pay the cuadro and thus sin against th e lord. Thou shalt doggie style the dancer in the back seat of your vehicle and thus snort the cocaine in such a position. Thou are
ordered by the fair and just lord your God to observe the laws of the cocaine and not lead the manager into temptation. God will allow waitresses to be led to the car for the the
snorting of the cocaine.

10. The lord your almighty God bans completely the dancing of flamenco to reggaeton music. Thus sayeth the lord.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 11:15:11
 
Piwin

Posts: 2734
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to estebanana

In the name of the Cante, the Duende and the Holy Compas, amen.

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El modo de dar una vez en el clavo es dar cien veces en la herradura.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 15:31:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11777
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Recently a dancer sent me a video of a well known baile teacher in Sevilla teaching a choreography to some reggeaton song. Needless to say my response was......"passionate disapproval" we'll call it.
Her defense of this is "flamenco itself is fusion so what's wrong with more fusion." This is not the first time I've heard this argument. "Sephardic music, Moorish music, Ida y vuelta bla bla bla". This seems like such a weak argument to me. Sephardic and Moorish influences happend hundreds of years ago and ida y vuleta is over 100. Why is it not allowed to be it's own unique and defined genre now?? Should we be calling Spaghetti with meat sauce fusion food because pasta comes from china and tomatoes come from the americas??? By this standard EVERY music is fusion of some sort.
If you want to make fusion that's fine but defending it by saying "flamenco IS fusion" is a really lame argument to me.
Partially a rant, but also want to hear some other opinions on this.


Well, you provide no video so this is all about what one person’s words and ideas are compared to another person’s. So my brain has to fill it all in. I will say that Raggaeton is clearly your typical Rumba pattern and tempo, so musically could fit right in to any rumba, tientos or Tarantos escobillas etc etc, depending on the chord progression, I have already tossed in some despacito as a joke myself....the pattern has been universal as probably the most successful fusion/rhythm pattern everywhere on earth accross dozens of cultures. So in my mind, I don’t see it as much of a stretch MUSICALLY.....now the lyric part of it is a different story, those types of “songs” mixing into the flamenco genre are at best, a joke like I did with despacito, to worst, in horrible taste or insult to the art of cante. But it would come down to the specific song in this case. So, once again, a taste issue nothing more.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 16:33:33
 
Piwin

Posts: 2734
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Ricardo

"A ella le gusta la gasolina
Mami yo tengo la gasolina
Dale pa' bajo y ahora pa' arriba
Tú no pegas tarro? No me digas
Mentirosa, tú sabes mas que nadie que tú eres loca
Ahora baila y quítate la ropa (yeah)
De Puerto Rico a Cuba
Cuba hasta la yuma, todas las mujeres
Don't stop get it get it
Sucia, yo tengo esa gasolina que te gusta
Olvídate de tu marido y disfruta"

Antonio Mairena 1953




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El modo de dar una vez en el clavo es dar cien veces en la herradura.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 16:51:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11777
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

"A ella le gusta la gasolina
Mami yo tengo la gasolina
Dale pa' bajo y ahora pa' arriba
Tú no pegas tarro? No me digas
Mentirosa, tú sabes mas que nadie que tú eres loca
Ahora baila y quítate la ropa (yeah)
De Puerto Rico a Cuba
Cuba hasta la yuma, todas las mujeres
Don't stop get it get it
Sucia, yo tengo esa gasolina que te gusta
Olvídate de tu marido y disfruta"

Antonio Mairena 1953





Duro!!!!


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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 16:58:55
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

I think the developement of flamenco was over a very long time and it was very organic. Like Evolution.

Fusion is instantly, like Revolution.

Very very well put!

Feels FANTASTIC to be validated!! hahaha

You asked for it Ricardo, I found what she sent me. Have fun!


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 19:09:23
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2844
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

My cousin Tommy who built engines for the Bandidos motorcyle gang put a bored and stroked Buick V8 into a Jaguar XK-140. On the dynamometer the engine produced 440 horsepower. It weighed less than the original Jaguar straight six. He painted the Jaguar in the light lavender color Cadillac came out with that year, with the avowed purpose of further annoying the straight Jaguar owners.

Perhaps the video is just meant to annoy flamencos? If so it seems to be succeeding.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 19:58:03
 
Piwin

Posts: 2734
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

Duro!

oh wait… now there are kids involved…
See, that's what happens when you can't keep your gasolina in your car!

There's one thumbs down on the video. Was that you Leñador?
Just looks like they're having fun. If you want to take that choreography seriously, then, regardless of the "fusion" discussion, there are parts that don't really work for me. Take the build-up from 1:30 to 1:40. Pretty straightforward build-up in the music. The dance is...well pretty anticlimactic at that part. You know what doesn't build up tension after a series of spins? Extending your hands over your head and doing a tiny flourish with your hands... The only you can pull that off and still build tension is if you can make that El Capullo / Jack Nicholson in the Shining face while doing it.

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El modo de dar una vez en el clavo es dar cien veces en la herradura.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 20:14:58
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

The only you can pull that off and still build tension is if you can make that El Capullo / Jack Nicholson in the Shining face while doing it.

This one???
http://blog.laopiniondezamora.es/flamenco/files/2012/02/el-capullo.jpg

quote:

There's one thumbs down on the video. Was that you Leñador?

It would only let me give it ONE thumbs down.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 20:25:58
 
Piwin

Posts: 2734
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

THAT's what I call tension! Everyone should be making that face before a drop!

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El modo de dar una vez en el clavo es dar cien veces en la herradura.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 20:56:51
 
JasonM

Posts: 1275
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

It’s too gangsta to fit with flamenco dancing in my opinion. Probably get your ass kicked for dancing like that
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2018 21:37:36
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7589
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

Reggaeton is horrid. I can only imagine a teacher using it to make to the class have popular appeal. Reggaeton is one of the few musics I the world that make me physically sick. It's absolute trash.

The pattern in found in Japanese music, but they don't destroy cooth and taste when they employ it in the hiya song form. You also hear hiya at festivals so it still retains a lot if regional significance.

If someone mixed tangos and hiya I wouldn't mind, but reggaeton has no right to exist. And four out if five Ricenos agree with me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2018 2:58:51
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

Estebanaba brings the commandments from Mount Sinaiquete! Let it be known!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2018 3:08:03
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7589
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

Lenny,

Estebamoses bearer of the conservative tablets of flamenco law.

If I were a politician based on my flamenco beliefs I would make Jeff Sessions look like a gay pot smoking hippie.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2018 5:40:33
 
gerundino63

 

Posts: 1522
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 18 2018 8:26:22
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2018 8:23:32
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1522
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador

quote:


I think the developement of flamenco was over a very long time and it was very organic. Like Evolution.

Fusion is instantly, like Revolution.

Very very well put!

Feels FANTASTIC to be validated!! hahaha


Thanks Leñador😊

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2018 8:28:06
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1512
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Well, you provide no video so this is all about what one person’s words and ideas are compared to another person’s. So my brain has to fill it all in. I will say that Raggaeton is clearly your typical Rumba pattern and tempo, so musically could fit right in to any rumba, tientos or Tarantos escobillas etc etc, depending on the chord progression, I have already tossed in some despacito as a joke myself....the pattern has been universal as probably the most successful fusion/rhythm pattern everywhere on earth accross dozens of cultures. So in my mind, I don’t see it as much of a stretch MUSICALLY.....now the lyric part of it is a different story, those types of “songs” mixing into the flamenco genre are at best, a joke like I did with despacito, to worst, in horrible taste or insult to the art of cante. But it would come down to the specific song in this case. So, once again, a taste issue nothing more.


Still waiting for a recording of i like big butts and i cannot lie in rumba compas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2018 9:01:45
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