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Recently a dancer sent me a video of a well known baile teacher in Sevilla teaching a choreography to some reggeaton song. Needless to say my response was......"passionate disapproval" we'll call it. Her defense of this is "flamenco itself is fusion so what's wrong with more fusion." This is not the first time I've heard this argument. "Sephardic music, Moorish music, Ida y vuelta bla bla bla". This seems like such a weak argument to me. Sephardic and Moorish influences happend hundreds of years ago and ida y vuleta is over 100. Why is it not allowed to be it's own unique and defined genre now?? Should we be calling Spaghetti with meat sauce fusion food because pasta comes from china and tomatoes come from the americas??? By this standard EVERY music is fusion of some sort. If you want to make fusion that's fine but defending it by saying "flamenco IS fusion" is a really lame argument to me. Partially a rant, but also want to hear some other opinions on this.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
I am with you. Dance is not an independent art - it is an interpretation of music. Artificially separating the dance movements from the music and substituting a different musical core makes no artistic sense to me and has no integrity.
However, it has been happening whenever ignorance/arrogance and lack of curiosity for deep learning and understanding combines with mistakenly assigning inherent value to novelty in a competitive business interest environment. So both teacher and students end up gravitating towards what is easier to teach and easier to do, and more familiar musically.
This same thing has been happening in Argentine tango for the past 20 years.
What is especially irritating is trying to ride on the authenticity and credibility of the original by calling it flamenco / tango, attempting to benefit from association.
Posts: 1990
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
I've seen a lot of this in the dance scene. Flamenco dancers often want to do their thing to different music than flamenco, or add non traditional instruments. Personally I usually dislike the result. But it's not surprising they want to do it.
I've spent years studying flamenco guitar because I really really like the sound of it. I love the sound of guitar, palmas, cante. Spent more years learning to play for the dance in order to accompany it properly.
Finally start getting gigs and now the dancer wants a violin to do the falseta?? No bueno! Really? I learn all your breaks, played for your dance a dozen times, then comes the falseta, and you want to give it to a flute player who can't feel bulerias compas if his life depended on it??
Or they want to play a recording of some other music during a gig. I get it, because flamenco guitarists play other music besides flamenco plenty, so why shouldn't dancers have the freedom to dance their style to other music? I don't have to listen or care. And I usually don't.
"Oh, that falseta the flute, violin, trumpet, etc. guy played really killed me" is something I've never said.
I have to say though, that the reverse is not true for me. I don't want or need to have tap dancers dancing when I play flamenco. But...... there was this one time I was in a studio laying down a rumba and a hot looking belly dancer came in. We asked her if she could dance to our music, and she took a figurative look toward her boyfriend to make sure he wasn't looking. She opened her shirt and made a few moves while our tune was playing. We were smitten.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
Well, glad I'm not the only one at least. Been arguing over email about this for two days and it was making me crazy lol. She just keeps going back to "But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules." AHHHHH No it's not! Just 'cus something influenced it 100+ years ago doesn't make it fusion!
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
Agree completely, Lenny. That various elements went into the development of flamenco as we have known it, and know it today, does not in any way make it "fusion." Flamenco is a unique, well-defined genre and has been at least since the latter part of the 19th century.
I have come to intensely dislike the term "fusion," not only in music and dance but in other areas as well. It has become a catchall term for the intellectually lazy who don't want to adhere to the parameters and limits of a given genre of music or other activity. Much like the dancer you mentioned above, they don't want to put in the time and effort to learn something well, claiming that their more "free style" of performance is "fusion" and therefore just as valid. They are wrong.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3491
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
"But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules."
This is exactly what I meant by the intellectually lazy. To say "there are no rules" in flamenco (or other genres) is not only ignorant but it means she doesn't have to actually learn anything. Just get out on the floor and "do her thing." Where does she think she's at and in what era--Woodstock?
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
I find it intellectually lazy to discuss something with people who share the exact same opinion about a topic. In this foro there a just a very few people thinking like this dancer you are talking about. So what are you expecting to get out of this discussion? I could say "yes, you are right" Lenador, but it wouldn't take us any further. If you just want to chat about something you are angry about it's fine, but it would be more fun with one or two beer
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
I’m not trying to pass a bill through Congress, why does every conversation need to “take us further.”. As stated it was partially a rant and partially curious what people thought. This is just a discussion, there doesn’t have to be a goal or end point, it’s just enjoying the human experience. Besides, a little validation when you’re pulling your hair out feels good does it not? And if someone wants to disagree that’s fine too, if they make a good enough point maybe I’ll change my mind.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
Yes, you are right Lenny! 😝
I know most of you will strongly disagree but raggeton (sp) should not be even be considered a genre of music. It’s all the same damn song and beat over and over, like some kind of psychological implement of torture. Someone call the flamenco police.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
I think to have a successful ‘fusion’ of anything there is the implication that those doing the fusing have a strong grasp and proficiency in working with all the elements being fused. Otherwise it’s probably just self indulgence or, as Bill suggests, mental laziness.
The clue here is the statement about no rules. That just sounds to me like the person is taking the easy route. Successful fusion implies hard work and a strong appreciation of the rules of the styles being fused.
It reminds me of some people’s take on fusion cooking...if the cook is BS’ing the food is seldom exciting, it’s often just inedible.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Well, glad I'm not the only one at least. Been arguing over email about this for two days and it was making me crazy lol. She just keeps going back to "But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules." AHHHHH No it's not! Just 'cus something influenced it 100+ years ago doesn't make it fusion!
Flamenco is a formally defined musical structure. There are lots of rules.
Rule 1. Compas matters.
2. Thou Shalt own a Conde' for your lord God demands this of his children.
3. Compas matters
4. Thou shalt not commit gratuitous guitar soloing for it is a sin against God.
5. No Poofies.
6. Thou shalt stay in compas at all times. To go out of compas is a sin against God.
7. Flamencos may not eat before the gig for it displeases God. For those who eat before the gig a firey hell shall be ones eternal resting place.
8. Thou shalt not temp the singer into pop music letras nor cast aspersions against dancers for no reason and without just cause. Both are sins in the eyes of God and God shall punish for these offenses.
9. In the eyes of your lord God taking a dancer in the bath room for the purpose of snorting of the cocaine and doing her doggy style whilst inJesting the cocaine is a sin. Thou shalt practice the the snorting of the cocaine in the car outside the gig lest the manager of the restaurant demand of the cocaine for himself. For sayeth the lord if the manager gets too high he may forget to pay the cuadro and thus sin against th e lord. Thou shalt doggie style the dancer in the back seat of your vehicle and thus snort the cocaine in such a position. Thou are ordered by the fair and just lord your God to observe the laws of the cocaine and not lead the manager into temptation. God will allow waitresses to be led to the car for the the snorting of the cocaine.
10. The lord your almighty God bans completely the dancing of flamenco to reggaeton music. Thus sayeth the lord.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to estebanana)
In the name of the Cante, the Duende and the Holy Compas, amen.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Recently a dancer sent me a video of a well known baile teacher in Sevilla teaching a choreography to some reggeaton song. Needless to say my response was......"passionate disapproval" we'll call it. Her defense of this is "flamenco itself is fusion so what's wrong with more fusion." This is not the first time I've heard this argument. "Sephardic music, Moorish music, Ida y vuelta bla bla bla". This seems like such a weak argument to me. Sephardic and Moorish influences happend hundreds of years ago and ida y vuleta is over 100. Why is it not allowed to be it's own unique and defined genre now?? Should we be calling Spaghetti with meat sauce fusion food because pasta comes from china and tomatoes come from the americas??? By this standard EVERY music is fusion of some sort. If you want to make fusion that's fine but defending it by saying "flamenco IS fusion" is a really lame argument to me. Partially a rant, but also want to hear some other opinions on this.
Well, you provide no video so this is all about what one person’s words and ideas are compared to another person’s. So my brain has to fill it all in. I will say that Raggaeton is clearly your typical Rumba pattern and tempo, so musically could fit right in to any rumba, tientos or Tarantos escobillas etc etc, depending on the chord progression, I have already tossed in some despacito as a joke myself....the pattern has been universal as probably the most successful fusion/rhythm pattern everywhere on earth accross dozens of cultures. So in my mind, I don’t see it as much of a stretch MUSICALLY.....now the lyric part of it is a different story, those types of “songs” mixing into the flamenco genre are at best, a joke like I did with despacito, to worst, in horrible taste or insult to the art of cante. But it would come down to the specific song in this case. So, once again, a taste issue nothing more.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Ricardo)
"A ella le gusta la gasolina Mami yo tengo la gasolina Dale pa' bajo y ahora pa' arriba Tú no pegas tarro? No me digas Mentirosa, tú sabes mas que nadie que tú eres loca Ahora baila y quítate la ropa (yeah) De Puerto Rico a Cuba Cuba hasta la yuma, todas las mujeres Don't stop get it get it Sucia, yo tengo esa gasolina que te gusta Olvídate de tu marido y disfruta"
Antonio Mairena 1953
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
"A ella le gusta la gasolina Mami yo tengo la gasolina Dale pa' bajo y ahora pa' arriba Tú no pegas tarro? No me digas Mentirosa, tú sabes mas que nadie que tú eres loca Ahora baila y quítate la ropa (yeah) De Puerto Rico a Cuba Cuba hasta la yuma, todas las mujeres Don't stop get it get it Sucia, yo tengo esa gasolina que te gusta Olvídate de tu marido y disfruta"
Posts: 3484
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
My cousin Tommy who built engines for the Bandidos motorcyle gang put a bored and stroked Buick V8 into a Jaguar XK-140. On the dynamometer the engine produced 440 horsepower. It weighed less than the original Jaguar straight six. He painted the Jaguar in the light lavender color Cadillac came out with that year, with the avowed purpose of further annoying the straight Jaguar owners.
Perhaps the video is just meant to annoy flamencos? If so it seems to be succeeding.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
Duro!
oh wait… now there are kids involved… See, that's what happens when you can't keep your gasolina in your car!
There's one thumbs down on the video. Was that you Leñador? Just looks like they're having fun. If you want to take that choreography seriously, then, regardless of the "fusion" discussion, there are parts that don't really work for me. Take the build-up from 1:30 to 1:40. Pretty straightforward build-up in the music. The dance is...well pretty anticlimactic at that part. You know what doesn't build up tension after a series of spins? Extending your hands over your head and doing a tiny flourish with your hands... The only you can pull that off and still build tension is if you can make that El Capullo / Jack Nicholson in the Shining face while doing it.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
THAT's what I call tension! Everyone should be making that face before a drop!
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Leñador)
Reggaeton is horrid. I can only imagine a teacher using it to make to the class have popular appeal. Reggaeton is one of the few musics I the world that make me physically sick. It's absolute trash.
The pattern in found in Japanese music, but they don't destroy cooth and taste when they employ it in the hiya song form. You also hear hiya at festivals so it still retains a lot if regional significance.
If someone mixed tangos and hiya I wouldn't mind, but reggaeton has no right to exist. And four out if five Ricenos agree with me.
RE: "Flamenco IS fusion" i... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Well, you provide no video so this is all about what one person’s words and ideas are compared to another person’s. So my brain has to fill it all in. I will say that Raggaeton is clearly your typical Rumba pattern and tempo, so musically could fit right in to any rumba, tientos or Tarantos escobillas etc etc, depending on the chord progression, I have already tossed in some despacito as a joke myself....the pattern has been universal as probably the most successful fusion/rhythm pattern everywhere on earth accross dozens of cultures. So in my mind, I don’t see it as much of a stretch MUSICALLY.....now the lyric part of it is a different story, those types of “songs” mixing into the flamenco genre are at best, a joke like I did with despacito, to worst, in horrible taste or insult to the art of cante. But it would come down to the specific song in this case. So, once again, a taste issue nothing more.
Still waiting for a recording of i like big butts and i cannot lie in rumba compas.
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Been arguing over email about this for two days and it was making me crazy lol. She just keeps going back to "But flamenco itself is fusion so there are no rules." 
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