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If Sn. Morante has no time for the foro then he should leave it - just turn the light off and leave it to people who actually think it's acceptable to correct their fellows' grammar, or to threaten 'science' on people's asses. I know who I prefer to follow and am grateful for some of the posts - particularly the Sieta one which I still look at.
But, as to fanfares, in the end, like a hand being withdrawn from a bucket of water, there are some drips, some ripples, then once again there is the quiet surface. Good luck.
While I very much appreciate and enjoy cante as the origin and heart of flamenco, I, too, am a guitar freak with no need to apologize. There have been plenty of threads and comments dealing with cante on the Foro, just as there have been many threads and comments dealing with lutherie and guitars.
There is no tension between discussing both cante and guitars on the Foro. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I would suggest that they complement each other, as the guitar accompanies cante.
If a Foro member thinks that the Foro and its other members do not meet his exacting standards and decides to withdraw, he should be able to do so. It is probably best for him and for the Foro that the rest of us not be subject to a condescending attitude about not being "flamenco" enough. We should wish him well.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
In my perfect world there’d be a lot more cante talk here. But the whole idea of a forum is a sort of democracy and if I happen to be part of the outvoted majority asi la vida.
In my perfect world a touchstone for true democracy is wether minorities can articulate their views and are tolerated. Numeric majorities are misleading. ("1 billion flies can't be wrong... )
It’s clear that flamenco guitar has more immediate and widespread appeal to non-flamencos outside Spain than the Cante, but for very many players that’s only the beginning. If they get involved in the wider world of flamenco arts they will come increasingly to enjoy and revere the Cante, and will begin to recognise it as the foundation and essence of flamenco. Your videos, as has been often been stated on the Foro, help that process.
There is, of course, a problem for flamenco performers and enthusiasts outside Spain who are not able to live the flamenco life or present themselves as genuinely Andalu’. Nonetheless, they are surely a very important part of the wider flamenco afición, and their love of the art will be vital in helping to sustain and nurture it.
In my perfect world there’d be a lot more cante talk here. But the whole idea of a forum is a sort of democracy and if I happen to be part of the outvoted majority asi la vida.
Lenny, I'm assuming you meant you are a part of the "outvoted minority."
But no one is prevented from bringing up cante as a topic. Why don't you start a thread about cante that interests you and see where it leads? In fact, cante has been a topic on previous threads and it seemed to elicit interesting responses. Give it a try. What aspects of cante would you like to see discussed? You might start a trend.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I understand your frustration, but please understand the reality outside of Spain.
Here in the States there are way fewer flamenco singers than guitarists. I would love to practice and learn more about different cantes and ways to accompany them, but I simply don't have anybody to practice with. I don't have any place to go to hear a great authentic cantaor outside of visiting artists from Spain. I love listening to cante, it really moves me, but I feel I lack the knowledge to comment on it. And so I don't, for fear of exposing my ignorance.
I liked Lenny's idea about having you explain what to look for in the videos that you post. This way we can learn something important and develop a better ear for it and taste. Otherwise, it's just enjoyable throughout, but it's not immediately evident what's the thing that stands out.
Imagine a flamenco performance without a guitar. I got the pull into flamenco from the guitar sound of Sabicas, David Moreno and a few other guitarists. A sound of a classical guitar doesn’t do it, neither does the steel string guitar. It has to be a flamenco guitar. The same applies for many guitar friends of mine. I do not like flamenco singing, mainly because I do not speak Spanish and some male singers I listened to sounded too much like screaming. Pardon me for my ignorance thinking so. But I Continue to enjoy guitar solo and flamenco dancing. At some point in the future I may want to expand my knowledge and skills into accompaniment for dancing. My 2cents.
It would sound like this and it would be incredible! I'd sit for hours and watch this!
quote:
I do not like flamenco singing, mainly because I do not speak Spanish
This makes zero sense to me, everyone who appreciates Opera has to speak Italian???? I know many lovers of cante who don't speak spanish.....
quote:
But no one is prevented from bringing up cante as a topic. Why don't you start a thread about cante that interests you and see where it leads?
I get that, and I'll continue to bring it up when I can but I'm still very new to being nerdy about it and we would need a lot more cante nerds on here to push it that way and I understand and accept there's just not that many on here compared to the guitar centric.
It seems that the main complaint about the Foro being too guitar-centric is the dearth of threads and comments concerning cante. Perhaps there are fewer such threads and comments now, but I typed in the one word "cante" in the search function and got dozens of past threads that pertain to cante: cantaores, various artists, guitar acommpaniment of various palos, etc.
I suggest that those who long for more discussions on cante go back to previous threads, find something that is interesting that you would like further discussion on, and bring it up on the Foro. For one thing, the reason we keep a history of past threads and comments is for members to search for something they may not encounter in current threads. For another, threads and comments from the past may contain nuggets that can be built upon for further discussion today.
That those who would like to see more cante discussed represent a "minority" on the Foro is irrelevant. We have an entire category called "Lutherie" that probably appeals to a minority, yet it does not prevent interesting discussions. Again, as I have stated previously, there is nothing to prevent bringing up cante. I don't understand what the problem is. I'm sure there are members who would join in such a discussion. It just takes someone who wants to see more of it to take the lead.
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Again, as I have stated previously, there is nothing to prevent bringing up cante. I don't understand what the problem is.
There is no real “problem” here. Sean O’brian AKA “Morante” has been on and off this forum and other chat lists for decades and has never really changed his stance on these issues. He has quit the forum for reasons in the past such as arguments “pro guitarrista” or anti-bull fight, etc etc...and I for one always love to hear him pipping in with his hardline puro view points, it almost always gives me an out loud laugh and an “ole!” For those comments.
The reason for his hardline attitude stems from the loss of his friend and mentor some years ago, José Milla´n, an encyclopedic amature cantaor who not only represented text book Cadiz styles, he also delivered excellent version of heavy-weight difficult cantes such as Caracoles, Fandango de Gloria, Malagueña del Mellizo, as demonstrated on the excellent CD produced by Sean himself. I always return to my personal copy of the CD for inspiration.
Jose Millan’s death caused Sean to put his guitar into it’s case indefinitely, and perhaps fueled that resentment toward the modern style singers and guitar nerds, leaving him with taste for only certain singers and if it must be “guitar music” than other styles such as blues, rock etc....the solo flamenco guitar thing comes as almost an insult to those great cantaores now gone or overlooked if still alive. Adding insult to injury, the lack of aficion for flamenco aesthetics such as food, speech, bullfight appreciation, etc etc, on discussion boards such as we have had here, it’s no surprise that he is in constant back and forth “love/hate” about contributing here. It’s totally understandable to me and I for one look forward to his either vocal frustrations, or his sudden return out of the blue with more excellent cante examples shoved down our throats...it’s all good, I totally love the guy!!!!
It’s totally understandable to me and I for one look forward to his either vocal frustrations, or his sudden return out of the blue with more excellent cante examples shoved down our throats...it’s all good, I totally love the guy!!!!
@Ricardo: Interesting rundown on Morante, Ricardo. Thanks.
@Lenador: Lenny, we don't necessarily need Morante to discuss cante. You have indicated you would like to see more discussion of cante on the Foro. Go for it! What aspects of cante do you want to see discussed? Lay them out in a comment and let's see where it takes us.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
@Lenador: Lenny, we don't necessarily need Morante to discuss cante. You have indicated you would like to see more discussion of cante on the Foro. Go for it! What aspects of cante do you want to see discussed? Lay them out in a comment and let's see where it takes us.
Morante is an encyclopedia and held all the keys but he never really discussed cante, just posted videos. I'd love to discuss more about individual letras, their importance, their history and their anatomy. I don't quite have the credentials to host a discussion like that but I'd love to take part. Maybe I'll just do my best with the ones I do know and see where it takes us.
I’ll bite. What kind of varnish should I use on the inside of my guitar if I wish to start playing for singers? Also which brand of strings to singers prefer?
I’ll bite. What kind of varnish should I use on the inside of my guitar if I wish to start playing for singers? Also which brand of strings to singers prefer?
We'll that's simple! Earnie Balls and Minwax of course!!
Morante seems to be as close to old-school Andalusian gitano then any of us could ever dream to get, native or not.
Besides, a juerga just isn't a juerga if there's nobody around to tell you you're doing it all wrong.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
Besides, a juerga just isn't a juerga if there's nobody around to tell you you're doing it all wrong.
In this case it seems the same could be said for the Foro.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
There is no real “problem” here. Sean O’brian AKA “Morante” has been on and off this forum and other chat lists for decades and has never really changed his stance on these issues. He has quit the forum for reasons in the past such as arguments “pro guitarrista” or anti-bull fight, etc etc...and I for one always love to hear him pipping in with his hardline puro view points, it almost always gives me an out loud laugh and an “ole!” For those comments.
The reason for his hardline attitude stems from the loss of his friend and mentor some years ago, José Milla´n, an encyclopedic amature cantaor who not only represented text book Cadiz styles, he also delivered excellent version of heavy-weight difficult cantes such as Caracoles, Fandango de Gloria, Malagueña del Mellizo, as demonstrated on the excellent CD produced by Sean himself. I always return to my personal copy of the CD for inspiration.
Jose Millan’s death caused Sean to put his guitar into it’s case indefinitely, and perhaps fueled that resentment toward the modern style singers and guitar nerds, leaving him with taste for only certain singers and if it must be “guitar music” than other styles such as blues, rock etc....the solo flamenco guitar thing comes as almost an insult to those great cantaores now gone or overlooked if still alive. Adding insult to injury, the lack of aficion for flamenco aesthetics such as food, speech, bullfight appreciation, etc etc, on discussion boards such as we have had here, it’s no surprise that he is in constant back and forth “love/hate” about contributing here. It’s totally understandable to me and I for one look forward to his either vocal frustrations, or his sudden return out of the blue with more excellent cante examples shoved down our throats...it’s all good, I totally love the guy!!!!
In agreement, i love listening to guys who were around previously and had exposure to an older generation of players, singers etc.
Having chats and banter with the likes of David Serva, were eye openers and often made some of the luminaries we hold in such high regard as mere mortals with their own issues, rather than lofty guitar gods or figuras etc.
I think with the foro, we are at a turning point. i like some modern stuff, but i deeply appreciate the heritage...i think this place as ron (god rest him) said should be like the local bar, pub, a place where you go for a bit of banter, a laugh and maybe pick up a few pointers on life from the auld fella in the corner.