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Is it normal to feel that flamenco died with Paco?   You are logged in as Guest
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tk

Posts: 467
Joined: Jun. 15 2006
 

Is it normal to feel that flamenco d... 

Unfortunately I realized that I feel that way...

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2018 23:09:29
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

You know in a way your post is not that far out. In my opinion, I dont think we will see someone of his talent and genius for a very long time. I’m not sure if flamenco has died without Paco, but it has taken a big hit for sure.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2018 23:38:04

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

Flamenco is cante. It is dying, of course. But Paco was just a guitarrista. He was one of the great guitarrists, but he knew flamenco better than anybody and was often quoted as saying he would rather have been a cantaor.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2018 23:44:12
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 450
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Morante

Of course it depends on what you mean. If you mean flamenco is the cry of an oppressed people then probably yes; if you mean it's a Spanish phrygian sounding thing peopled by professional musical athletes then it probably has some time to go, though people who have read Lives and Legends of Flamenco may not agree.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2018 0:07:03
 
Arash

Posts: 4401
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

This is the decade of decadence, **** and first world problems.
Of course flamenco and everything else of deepness and quality is dying.
You can look everywhere,,,,,movies, art, music, tv, phone, hobbies, politics, ,,everything is **** and cheap.
Has not much to do with Paco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2018 16:24:14
 
tele

Posts: 1404
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

Yes Arash it seems like humans ability to create art is diminishing each year.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2018 20:03:47
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1473
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tele

Paco's death was the loss of a flamenco guitar idol, all of the current generation looked up to for guidance. A great loss..

for me, it was Moraito's passing away....no one could play with that soniquete...

People in Jerez said to me flamenco cante died when Manuel Agujetas passed away...none of the current generation compare etc.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2018 20:23:30
 
callemunicion

 

Posts: 85
Joined: Jun. 5 2017
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

It's way more complicated than "decadence". It has a lot to do with the internet. If you understand how youtube, facebook etc. work, you can understand the whole problem a lot better than just saying that people are decadent.
If we talk about cante, yes there were better times, but guitarists? There are some amazing players out there, not famous like amigo or tomate, but they exist and probably are playing music that's way more interesting than the stuff amigo is doing. If you are looking for flamenco-stars like paco or camarón than yes this is dying out and this phenomenon has some pro's and con's but if you just take a closer look you'll find amazing artists. flamenco is still alive (thanks to foreigners) of course it's changing and I'm glad that there's an evolution.
sorry for my bad english, hope you understand.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2018 20:26:45
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

A huge loss to Flamenco but far from dead. As Morante said, Flamenco is cante and there are still a lot of great cantaores although less and less each year. I’m hoping for a big resurgence in young cante from Jerez with people like Samuel Serrano and the barrio Santiago people but I may be holding my breath for nothing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 1:22:02
 
JasonM

Posts: 911
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

Would Paco have released a new album in the future? Maybe, we will never know. but he was definitely winding down. 10 years between Cositas Buenas and Cancion andaluz. So it's possible flamenco would be no different
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 6:52:52

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Arash

quote:

You can look everywhere,,,,,movies, art, music, tv, phone, hobbies, politics, ,,everything is **** and cheap.


Was listening just now to Otis Redding and thinking the same; why is all the good music from yesterday? Or am I just too old to appreciate the rubbish which is called music today?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 16:35:11

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Arash

We all have built-in cognitive biases. We over-evaluate what we have and under-evaluate what we don't have. In our minds, our wives are more beautiful than they really are, our kids are smarter than they really are, etc. Those biases extend to our musical tastes. The music of our teen years or the music of other salient moments in our lives was just so much better than everything else. Those biases serve a purpose and in many ways we should be happy we have them. I can certainly see the benefit of thinking your significant other is more beautiful than she actually is. What I don't understand is when those biases warp into a judgment of everything else. We're no longer saying that our wives are more beautiful. We're saying that everybody else's wife is ugly. An odd turn of events.

If you can't find quality music today, you're not listening hard enough. If it's all dying and there's no hope of adding anything of quality to what has already been done, then let's just call the whole thing off. If you don't think you can add anything worthwhile to what Reyes did, then throw out your tools and burn down the workshop. If you don't think you can add anything to what PdL did, then smash that guitar to pieces and use it for firewood. Better yet, bring the wood here, and we can put it all together in the middle of the foro and light it up, turn this place into a huge funeral pyre to grieve the past and contemplate our hopeless future. Let's wallow in our despair and enjoy every last drop of it. If everything is sh*t, then at least let's be honest and drop the whole thing. Some people really need to ask themselves why they're even here if they truly believe it's all sh*t. You've insulted every creative mind here by including what they're doing in the category "sh*t". Ricardo, John, Grisha, sorry to break it to you but your music is all sh*t and cheap. Stephen, Tom, Andy, Brian, Rob, sorry to break it to you but your guitars are all sh*t and cheap. Or maybe we can set up a cut-off age. If you're older than X, you're fine. You're part of the dying but great. If you're younger than X, you're sh*t. What should that age be? 50? That's a nice round number. Let's go with that. Some of you are off the hook (can I hear a collective sigh of relief?). The rest of you, say it together now: "we're sh*t". Olé!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 19:00:26
 
callemunicion

 

Posts: 85
Joined: Jun. 5 2017
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

olé piwin.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 19:09:03

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 15 2018 21:13:31
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 19:40:27
 
Arash

Posts: 4401
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

We all have built-in cognitive biases. We over-evaluate what we have and under-evaluate what we don't have. In our minds, our wives are more beautiful than they really are, our kids are smarter than they really are, etc. Those biases extend to our musical tastes. The music of our teen years or the music of other salient moments in our lives was just so much better than everything else. Those biases serve a purpose and in many ways we should be happy we have them. I can certainly see the benefit of thinking your significant other is more beautiful than she actually is. What I don't understand is when those biases warp into a judgment of everything else. We're no longer saying that our wives are more beautiful. We're saying that everybody else's wife is ugly. An odd turn of events.

If you can't find quality music today, you're not listening hard enough. If it's all dying and there's no hope of adding anything of quality to what has already been done, then let's just call the whole thing off. If you don't think you can add anything worthwhile to what Reyes did, then throw out your tools and burn down the workshop. If you don't think you can add anything to what PdL did, then smash that guitar to pieces and use it for firewood. Better yet, bring the wood here, and we can put it all together in the middle of the foro and light it up, turn this place into a huge funeral pyre to grieve the past and contemplate our hopeless future. Let's wallow in our despair and enjoy every last drop of it. If everything is sh*t, then at least let's be honest and drop the whole thing. Some people really need to ask themselves why they're even here if they truly believe it's all sh*t. You've insulted every creative mind here by including what they're doing in the category "sh*t". Ricardo, John, Grisha, sorry to break it to you but your music is all sh*t and cheap. Stephen, Tom, Andy, Brian, Rob, sorry to break it to you but your guitars are all sh*t and cheap. Or maybe we can set up a cut-off age. If you're older than X, you're fine. You're part of the dying but great. If you're younger than X, you're sh*t. What should that age be? 50? That's a nice round number. Let's go with that. Some of you are off the hook (can I hear a collective sigh of relief?). The rest of you, say it together now: "we're sh*t". Olé!


I have no clue how you come to such conclusions with what I meant with "sh!t".
If there are things which are not "sh!t", then all the things and people and what they're doing which you mentioned

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 20:52:56
 
etta

 

Posts: 268
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

Interesting question about Paco and flamenco. Some would argue that what was flamenco traditionally began to die when Paco and others embraced the Jazz/Latin idiom full bore. Certainly music of all types tends to evolve. But, when it gets too far from its roots the whole genre may be threatened. Did Paco take us out of the loop or did he advance the genre? I guess each of us has to answer that one in our own way with what and how the music speaks to us. I love the early Paco, not so much the elder.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2018 22:57:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to etta

Paco advanced the tradition of course, guitarwise mainly (both accomp and solo, which indirectly inspired the baile to evolve as well), and only a little bit cante wise (more his brother and some others that pushed the lyric and fast syllable thing). He never went “too far” in terms of specifics as he policed himself so to speak, however, people’s taste line will be drawn wherever it is drawn. I think his admiration for Camaron and that style sort of kept things frozen in terms of forward movement and acceptance of change... I mean if he had continued to develop his work alongside a variety of different style cantaores (like Sanlucar did on Tauromagia for example), things might be different now. But he couldn’t really look past Camaron so, it is what it is.

Now, there are some aficionados who could care less about Camaron NOR Paco’s guitar innovations, so the concept of Paco changing or evolving anything is a non issue. Of course they have to know when they see modern flamenco performance where the inspiration came from, but perhaps they just shrug it off as “what was THAT?”. Then you have many others... I mean MANY others....that used to like Paco in the 70’s, feel Paco stopped playing flamenco and plays jazz fusion or something weird. Like they don’t understand Siroco etc...which I think is simply ignorance. Like looking at the birds today and thinking they could having nothing whatever to do with the magnificant dinosaurs of the past, and certainly not an improvement on design.

I prefer the other opinion that PDL is a non issue rather than pretend to understand PDL’s evolution yet simply don’t like it because they “don’t like jazz”....but saddly that is the vast majority of opinion I hear over and over and over and over.

PDL death is depressing because he was at the vanguard of the inspiration and change. Sort of like BACH, its the end of an era and we have the dates and history clearly marked, and whatever comes next is what it is....that’s how evolution works and to be sad about it or dwell on it, is pointless. In Rito (1972) all the cantaores were lamenting the Golden era of M. Torre, Pavón, Gloria, etc, and how Rumba was a danger....I can’t imagine erasing all of Flamenco history from 1972 to the present....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 5:04:10

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Arash

How else was I supposed to interpret this:

quote:

everything is **** and cheap
?

In my book, everything means, well, everything... Didn't seem like you were allowing for any exceptions but if you were, apologies for having misunderstood you.

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 5:29:15
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

I don’t think I have the same cognitive biases, I’m fully prepared to say the music of my teenage years(96-03) was terrible and music on the radio continued to be terrible with exceptions very few and far between.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 14:42:56

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


I prefer the other opinion that PDL is a non issue rather than pretend to understand PDL’s evolution yet simply don’t like it because they “don’t like jazz


¡Olé! Flamenco changed because Franco died and Spain opened up so quickly that it shocked many Spaniards. The movimiento in Madrid was electrifiying and Camaron found it. Unfortunately he met the real bete noir, Ricardo Pachón, who was more interested in money than in flamenco.

Social change is what has changed flamenco: I remember hearing la Niña Pastori when she was 14 years old and sang flamenco pa´quitar´sentío. Now she is the empitomy of kitsch.

Individual artists are not to blame.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 16:02:25

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

I’m fully prepared to say the music of my teenage years(96-03)


I mean the music you loved and listened to when you were a teen, not necessarily what was popular or what was on the radio then. For instance, Brel and Léo Ferré are both before my time. Intellectually, I can say that they're equally talented artists. But I listened a lot to Brel growing up and only discovered Ferré as an adult. As a result, Brel just speaks to me a whole lot more than Ferré. If we're doing a dispassionate analysis of the music that's one thing. But the way we experience music isn't dispassionate. Songs become colored by the memories we associate with them, and vice versa.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/08/musical_nostalgia_the_psychology_and_neuroscience_for_song_preference_and.html

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 16:59:25
 
Mark2

Posts: 1469
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

It could be that you are more a fan of Paco than of flamenco. Nothing wrong with that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 18:13:39
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

quote:

I mean the music you loved and listened to when you were a teen, not necessarily what was popular or what was on the radio then.

Ah, well, I'm still an outlier then I suppose lol My teenage years were filled with jungle/drum & bass and underground hip hop, none of which I listen to today lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 20:46:51

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Leñador

pffff you just won't come into the fold will ya. Got to be all different and unique.

Outliers like this can't be trusted. I bet you have a secret stash of Ottmar Libert CDs in your basement.

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 20:53:52
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

You can just say axxhole if you want. I'm comfortable with that.

They're in a bank vault.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 21:05:33
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2600
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I don’t think I have the same cognitive biases, I’m fully prepared to say the music of my teenage years(96-03) was terrible and music on the radio continued to be terrible with exceptions very few and far between.


Radio music in the USA has been through at least a couple of cycles in my lifetime. Talking to my son I get the idea there has been at least one more cycle since I stopped listening, maybe more than one.

When I was a teen in the 1950s it was largely crap. The vibrant creative scene of the 1930s-1940s, with the big bands, shows like Louis Armstrong's New York broadcasts, etc. gave way to Tin Pan Alley commercial shlock like Dean Martin's "When the Moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore." The suits had taken control away from the artists, with the results you would expect.

Big bands were expensive, so they got phased out by the record companies, with only a couple of exceptions like Stan Kenton and Les Brown. Kenton was a little too far out to attract a big following, and Brown was too smooth and ironed out to get people excited. Woody Herman's Third Herd was still touring in the 1950s, but when they came to Washington DC the only place they could play was an outdoor pavilion in an amusement park.

The suits could put a few people in a studio to record a song they bought from the production workers in the Brill building, and bribe the DJs to play it. Young people needed a sound track for their lives, and bought what was on offer.

My band got together on Saturday morning to listen to the Top 40. The music was so simple and sappy that we did head arrangements of the top 10, so we could play requests at dances. But what really got the kids out on the floor was when we played stuff from the 1930s. Even traditional jazz from New Orleans got the accomplished dancers out to show their stuff.

The commercial shlock of the 1950s held the airwaves until rock 'n roll came into its own in the second half of the 1960s. Then there was tremendous innovation. The artists were once again the major force.

History repeated itself. By the end of the '70s the suits had regained the upper hand. They began to crank out disco "hits" while the consumer poseurs hit the dance floor.

I have no idea what's going on now on the radio. When I happen to hear "popular" music on the radio, it seldom interests me. The last time I listened regularly was before the new management at the local NPR station took "Blue Monday" off the air, after I moved back to Austin in 2010. Larry Monroe, a local DJ nearly as old as I am, had a blues show that featured stuff from the late '50s-early '60s. Some of it I hadn't heard before. Paul Ray's "Twine Time"--early rock and rhythm & blues--bit the dust soon afterward.

I spent more time in Spain while Franco was still alive than I have since. It's clear that things have changed radically and rapidly. So has commercial flamenco. As recently as the late 1980s the big touring shows still featured traditional performers, music and dance. I even heard Chocolate in San Francisco in the '80s. Though Camaron and Paco were very popular in Spain, their influence hadn't reached the big touring shows.

The last time I saw Tomatito, the only thing that interested me was the dancer, Paloma Fantova. Tomatito's show was obviously influenced by the latter days of Paco de Lucia, but to me it lacked Paco's good taste and musicality.

Traditional flamenco persists, but seems diminished. We will probably take in some of the Sevilla Bienal this year--I'm wondering how it will be. Yesterday I listened to Maria Terremoto on Youtube and was impressed.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 22:05:44
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 450
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

By the end of the '70s the suits had regained the upper hand
- as far as 'The Underground' was concerned in the UK, that happened at the turn of the 70s and not as late as you think. It became 'Rock' and a revenue stream, and not a movement. I went to a festival in Bath in 1969 and, admittedly it was new to me, but it was astonishing. By 1970 it had gone, and even I as a 17 year old felt that. That's pretty quick turnover if all it is is a temporal hook to hang my youth on.

PWIN is correct though.
quote:

If you can't find quality music today, you're not listening hard enough.
I am 65 weirdly (I'm demanding a recount) and this pleases me greatly. So does Tío Borrico. Go figure. It may not be profound but it has value.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2018 22:48:10
 
joselito_fletan

 

Posts: 154
Joined: Jan. 24 2017
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to tk

Just wanted to say that these threads are great! as an aficionado one learns so much.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 0:04:44

Piwin

Posts: 2180
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

They're in a bank vault.



That's a pretty bad joke to pull on a bank robber.

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"When I'm dead, I'm going to forget everything – and I advise you to do the same."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 8:46:50
 
Arash

Posts: 4401
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Is it normal to feel that flamen... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Didn't seem like you were allowing for any exceptions


I did that in the sentence before.
Maybe the wording was confusing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2018 9:01:23
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