History of flamenco

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History of flamenco

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tele

Posts: 1469
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

History of flamenco

Any links to where I could read some factual information about the history of flamenco?

Any insights about the history are welcome also

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2018 20:13:11

joselito_fletan

Posts: 187
Joined: Jan. 24 2017

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tele)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=308799&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Left a link above, if you understand spanish, these are lectures posted online by the university of cadiz in regards to flamenco and it's history

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2018 20:23:16

edguerin

Posts: 1592
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tele)

You might find
Faustino Núñez' homepage (flamencopolis) easier to follow.

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2018 17:02:53

Morante

Posts: 2231
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to edguerin)

Faustino has a degree in music and has been a professional flamenco guitarist (Antonio Gades). He is my favourite flamencólogo. He often livens up his lectures playing or singing, while many flamencólogos cannot even play palmas

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2018 20:59:02

joselito_fletan

Posts: 187
Joined: Jan. 24 2017

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Faustino has a degree in music and has been a professional flamenco guitarist (Antonio Gades). He is my favourite flamencólogo. He often livens up his lectures playing or singing, while many flamencólogos cannot even play palmas

I keep watching his lectures over and over!!! Even have two if his books.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2018 21:06:19

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3437
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante
...while many flamencólogos cannot even play palmas

When I first tried to read about the history of flamenco (during a previous geological era) I was frustrated by the fact that the early accounts of flamenco were by poets, or at least literary people (e.g. Demófilo), who wrote out and analyzed the letras, but hardly mentioned music, never giving a description of it, much less trying to write it down, or even describe the compas.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2018 16:27:51

callemunicion

Posts: 85
Joined: Jun. 5 2017

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tele)

flamencopolis is faustinos site?
that's a real goldmine, thanks for sharing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2018 16:59:08

tf10music

Posts: 112
Joined: Jan. 3 2017

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tele)

There's no academic source that really provides a rigorous treatment of the history of flamenco in all of its facets. But then, the same can be said about most things.

One accessible account is Bernard Leblon's "Gypsies and Flamenco: The Emergence of the Art of Flamenco in Andalusia."

If you're willing to read some ethnomusicology written in Spanish, then "El Flamenco y la Música Andalusi: Argumentos para un Encuentro" by Cristina Cruces Roldán is really good. She has another earlier book that seems like it's a study of flamenco's historical relation to daily life, but I can't confirm anything about it since I've been unable to get a hold of a copy.

There are some cool articles that have been written recently as well that relativize the history of flamenco with that of other folk musics (particularly the blues in America). For example, K. Meira Goldberg's article "Sonidos Negros: On the Blackness of Flamenco" might be of interest. She also edited an anthology of essays that might be relevant.

Other names to investigate: William Washabaugh, Antonio Mandly

That flamencopolis site is great! It's so well-designed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2018 6:36:18

Brendan

Posts: 358
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tf10music)

That K. Meira Goldberg article is behind a paywall. Anyone got it?

I respect Michelle Hefner Hayes’ book on the history of flamenco (though it too won’t give you the comprehensive history you’re after).

I find the blues analogy useful for thinking about what’s built into my perceptions of music created by people much poorer than me. I’m a bit sceptical about whether it would be helpful for someone who is not coming to flamenco as a privileged outsider, having previously been a big blues-head of the privileged outsider variety.

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https://sites.google.com/site/obscureflamencology/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2018 11:43:06

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Any links to where I could read some factual information about the history of flamenco?

Any insights about the history are welcome also

It’s rare to see just factual stuff presented on the subject....I always feel like I am wading through dense jungles of opinions to get at the truth. For that reason I simply avoid texts and go for short interviews, recordings, and video performances. In that regard, Rito y Geografia is like one stop shopping, a real goldmine.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2018 4:26:16

tf10music

Posts: 112
Joined: Jan. 3 2017

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to Brendan)

"That K. Meira Goldberg article is behind a paywall. Anyone got it?"

I have a PDF -- pm me with your email address and I'll send it along.

I like the blues angle, but I also find it somewhat limiting. While it works for an ethnomusicological study, the fact is that flamenco's evolution was also a result of interactions with existing idioms (like romances fronterizos) and awareness of the relative presence/absence of other cultures (Jews and Muslims in particular). Such interactions, for me, separate it from the blues.

Ricardo: William Washabaugh wrote a cool article that both praises and relativizes Rito y Geografía. As I recall, his claim is that while it's a fantastic and unparalleled resource, it's also a crystallization and reification of a living and changing folk form. He contends that Rito y Geografía presents flamenco as a cultural monolith related to Gitano ethnicity (i.e. an antique), but in doing so impedes flamenco's ability to act in the interest of that Gitano ethnicity. I don't know if I buy that argument (seems a bit forced), but it certainly encouraged me to engage with the Rito y Geografía material from a new standpoint.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2018 1:22:00

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tf10music)

quote:

Ricardo: William Washabaugh wrote a cool article that both praises and relativizes Rito y Geografía. As I recall, his claim is that while it's a fantastic and unparalleled resource, it's also a crystallization and reification of a living and changing folk form. He contends that Rito y Geografía presents flamenco as a cultural monolith related to Gitano ethnicity (i.e. an antique), but in doing so impedes flamenco's ability to act in the interest of that Gitano ethnicity. I don't know if I buy that argument (seems a bit forced), but it certainly encouraged me to engage with the Rito y Geografía material from a new standpoint.

The interviewer asks MANY loaded questions....it’s great so long as you get it, ie “familiar with the hype”, then you get a verbal answer...THEN you get the real Flamenco performance which shows, almost comically to me, how academic the game of “Flamencology” is really, and flamenco “is what it is” in the end. I don’t really see it as a ethnic cultural monolith, at least when you notice the subtle irony at play....though superficially there is emphasis on “cante gitano” and almost fun poking at how serious the opinions can get. While the art presented can get you in the gut, those little moments of “guasa” are hilarious to me.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2018 2:24:34

tf10music

Posts: 112
Joined: Jan. 3 2017

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The interviewer asks MANY loaded questions....it’s great so long as you get it, ie “familiar with the hype”, then you get a verbal answer...THEN you get the real Flamenco performance which shows, almost comically to me, how academic the game of “Flamencology” is really, and flamenco “is what it is” in the end. I don’t really see it as a ethnic cultural monolith, at least when you notice the subtle irony at play....though superficially there is emphasis on “cante gitano” and almost fun poking at how serious the opinions can get. While the art presented can get you in the gut, those little moments of “guasa” are hilarious to me.

I think Washabaugh explains the subtle little moments of dialogue/levity by saying that Rito y Geografía realigns flamenco with the Gitano family -- emphasis here on 'family,' and all the familiarity that the word implies. That's one of the reasons why I think that his analysis is forced: it seems like he's shifting the goalposts regarding what the term "family" really means in order to solidify the concept of the "Gitano family" as that which suddenly includes everything that is internal to flamenco. He's anthropologist who studies flamenco, which means that his brand of seriousness is a bit different from that of the 'flamencologists.' He's always trying to construct overarching narratives that encapsulate both the popular views of flamenco and the views of the flamencologists who are operating in closer proximity with the popular and local consumption of the music. Overall, I think that while his intentions are good, his attempts to find an overarching narrative lead him to force certain particulars to fit into boxes where they don't really belong.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2018 3:14:06

Canastos

Posts: 9
Joined: Dec. 1 2015
From: Astudillo (Palencia) Spain.

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tele)

Flamencópolis prehistory:

http://www.enriquepelaez.com/html_diseno_web/04_radio/grande_04/introduccion.html

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Hoy la noche se viste de Corinto....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2018 13:55:10

JasonM

Posts: 2090
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

"It is what it is" sums up all of the research papers I had to write in ethnomusicology 101.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2018 15:07:12

El Burdo

Posts: 644
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: History of flamenco (in reply to tele)

I've just re-read The Art of Flamenco by Donn Pohren so decided, as I was on a roll (The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay, For Whom the Bell Tolls, Homage to Catalonia etc) to buy 'Lives and Legends of Flamenco' by Sn. Pohren.
Although it is really a long list of protagonists, it is nonetheless quite a fascinating read (at least in the first 100 or so pages I have read up to now) covering a lot from Silverio Franconetti and El Mellizo for example, up to 1964. There is also significant enlargement and extension up to 1988. Apart from personal individual histories, he offers his insights on Andaluz and Gitano cante, solo and accompanist guitarists, dance, the influence of particular cultural backgrounds on Flamenco as a whole, some opinions on the historical developments and migrations leading to the genre as a whole and he also points out where things are not known. Mists of time and all that.*

For me, I have stopped looking for definitive stations of the flamenco cross and just to accept that historical records are partial and not able to adequately explain events; but a definite impression can be formed by these commentaries (even though Pohren has a clear and sometimes amusingly arrogant view on what commercialism and improving quality of life has had on el arte, that many will share) and by reading the verses in Spanish (and Cálo) and English. Love, God, Blood and Death. These days I think it's mostly about whether it's possible to get a better interest bearing account or if my hair is looking good in the back.

So far, I think it's a good book and worth finding. Maybe not adequate for an academic research source though.

* he does refer quite a lot to a book 'Arte y Artistas Flamenco' by Fernando el de Triana which might be a more direct source. I haven't read it but it was re-issued in 2010.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2018 14:26:46