Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





If you like an archaeologic whodunnit   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

If you like an archaeologic whodunnit 

Ambitious suggestion of change in human past in Europe, and stolen bones

https://www.nature.com/news/archaeologists-say-human-evolution-study-used-stolen-bone-1.22984?WT.mc_id=SFB_NNEWS_1508_RHBox

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2017 18:17:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10939
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

And thanks to this crap Creationists and Conspiracy theorists will continue to reject Evolution and blame botched science for the sake of publication.

Honestly I would tend to side with the researchers on this except that they refused to reveal the "private collection" owner...so yes their paper should be retracted until this gets sorted. However, if they can prove their source evidence, the papers should be re instated and back dated.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2017 22:36:41
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

I guess once removed it is hard to prove that something is from same spot.
As been said, used bones were probably of same layer from another pit.

Interesting being the motivation though (apart from personal fame) to move human origin to European continent. Similar to how ancient Greece been presented as origin of modern culture and democracy, even though first clues of pragmatism appear to have occured with Cyrus II. (And also with some of Chinese emperors.)

After traditional clerical steering of academic whereabouts there also exist culturally hegemonial ones.

-Even though, there being no reason for boosting of the latter aspect. Merrits of the occident for modern spirit are really more than enough for to grant a full picture of other´s achievements in ancient reality.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2017 5:10:44
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1516
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

[…] ancient Greece been presented as origin of modern culture and democracy, even though first clues of pragmatism appear to have occured with Cyrus II.


It’s not simply a question of who was chronologically first: it was Greece that influenced the Humanists during the Renaissance, so Greece gets the attention.

Likewise, poor Lord Monboddo proposed the Theory of Evolution before Darwin, but he was just laughed at.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2017 19:02:38
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

Any subject and topic should be told and presented holistically and with unbiased dedication to the matter.

Vanity of individual scientists or authorities, contextual agendas or profiteering background have done no good to corresponding subjects, but set them back.

Jurisprudence and economics are leading in being distorted subjects, apparently followed by history, modern times politics and anthropology.

Especially the latter subject has recovered a lot over past decades, but all in all there is still way to go with sobriety in academies.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 6:51:04
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7497
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

This is only stressing that material used for papers needs to be accounted for with verifiable provenance records from site to lab. The general thought among archaeologists is that Europe was occupied by early humans starting at 900,000 to one million years ago, but the guys leading the charge want to claim earlier occupation. That's the human origins game, scoop the other researchers for better shot at funding. Science can be dirty. I'm glad they called them on provenance, it's important to seek honesty to keep the public trust.

People who are anti science and conspiracy nuts never learn, they will keep on chemtrail claiming and evolution denying for one reason; it makes them special, conspiracy people are mild narcissists, and conspiracy belief is a benign, mostly, form of showing you have special knowledge. A way of claiming 'specialness' that non believers don't have. Science crushes unfounded bunk theories, but the conspiracy folks won't be stopped by rational thinking, that would lump them in with the majority, and Flat Earthers etc. need that special edge.....get flat earth, special edge....


Regarding provenance: I knew a marine biologist who transported ground Humpback whale bone marrow from South America, Peru, to Berkeley CA to do a DNA work up on the specimen to identify genetic lines in a group of South Pacific Humpbacks. She was a applying to the doctorate program in Berkeley. The head of the lab busted her and scolded her harshly and told her to forget doing a doc at Berkeley. She finished her lab in a few months and headed back to Colombia, then eventually was able to do the doctorate in New Zealand. Things worked out, but it was incredibly stupid to have transported animal remains and try to work on them in a lab in academia. She opened the lab up to action by a number of governmental offices not least of which would be Fish and Wildlife, and they don't clown around. Scientists get greedy too, they're human.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 7:58:03
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

With interest into psychology there should be so much more attention to the ordinary whereabouts behind the pathology of insatiable greed that led to 0,1% of people in USA holding as much of property as 90% of the rest. Still, just yesterday the pseudo democratic representation there having arranged for another markup to its clients, which is said to come in with $1 billion plus for the president´s family alone.

The new draft of nearly 500 pages having been fully disclosed only hours before the vote. For basically everyone knowing anyway what the coup is about.


If actually considering psyche and social matters, one could had come to realize how conspiracy phenomenon being not even close in quantity and intensity to the striking delusional mass occurrence of elimination of worldly reality before the eye, even yet at the brink of global habitat destroyal under one´s feat.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 12:53:07
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

On an entirely other note:
I have been trying to upload this today morning. Hope it will work this time.

Did you know of this palaeontologic bit?






A protoceraptor captured in fight with a velociraptor.
The stocky pc having overrun the more gracile vr, biten into its forarm and broken it with its beak. Whereas the vr might have torn open the cardio artery at the pc´s neck in the same time with its rear legs claw.

The two assumedly having been buried in that very moment under a sand dunes landslide.

With its large eye ring bone the the vr is assumed to have been nocturnal hunter (countering outdated thesis according to which only mammals used to be nocturnal) and it might have waylayed the resting pc at night, when the fight arose.

Specially remarkable to my layman understanding how furious the defending pc might have been who similar to a pitbull or better even to a wild boar would not let go. (Boars defense strategy, who commonly are being attacked by superior beast of prey, is to trip out. And not seldomly they will severely injure their attackers and get away.)

For, howsoever suddenly the landslide occured, the pc will likely have had time enough to note the rumble, let go the opponent (as apparently the vr had done) and try escape the sand mass. Instead it stuck and became fixed in action for ages to come.

Isn´t it mindboggling to see the remains of that moment in action 74 million years later?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 13:01:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10939
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

The 500 page bill that nobody had time to read, yet EVERYBODY just knows everything that is said in it? .

Anyway, about greedy scientists that are human, sure of course they have potential for being and so much more...however...I would like to believe that the thing that sets them apart from the other sociopaths is that they are, more often than not, extremely SMART. That means if they wanted to get away with something, sneak it past peer review or whatever, it would not be something so obvious as STOLEN BONES and botched data, etc. It would be something super clever and difficult to spot me thinks.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 16:36:33
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

The 500 page bill that nobody had time to read, yet EVERYBODY just knows everything that is said in it? .

Obviously there was no need to know in detail. Otherwise the bill would had not passed.
Without predestined intention no one would agree to sign for something unread. Innit?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Anyway, about greedy scientists that are human, sure of course they have potential for being and so much more...however...I would like to believe that the thing that sets them apart from the other sociopaths is that they are, more often than not, extremely SMART. That means if they wanted to get away with something, sneak it past peer review or whatever, it would not be something so obvious as STOLEN BONES and botched data, etc. It would be something super clever and difficult to spot me thinks.


Agreed. But apparently there exist exceptions to the rule.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2017 16:48:12
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7497
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

There are various motivations for poor working methods in science. A lot of it is greed, but sometimes skirting the rules is a way doing research that the scientist might be denied doing. Not all cheating is greedy. I'd say over all the majority of scientists are ethical and careful, in the public sector and academia, a lot of the questionable stuff arises in corporate labs. And the least questionable stuff is like this bone bamboozle. Human paleontology is esoteric, really, the everyday greed and bad method is manifested in issues like pharamseutical companies not taking drugs to trial if the end user belongs to too small a group for the company to make money.

If a drug company scinetist says I have a potential cure for such and such, but only ten thousand suffer form such and such, they the company is unlikely to take it to trial phase. In trial phase if the medication is found effective the company is faced with an ethical situation, or possibly a legal situation which dictates that make the product even if it does not make profit. Many medications are shelved before they are developed to ensure the company is not required to manufacture something they'll lose money on.

The bean counters of the human origins research don't hold back on granting, and the Fundie Christians that are evolution deniers are brainwashed, so the remaining common ground is medical science. And the way to get a fundie to realize science works is to let the think that God is guiding the hands of science to create good for humans. Once in a while the truth sinks in and they stop distrusting science.

I know how they are, if you try to explain Potassium Argon dating to a christian, and expound on the idea that a radioactive isotope has a half life that can be measured and used to chronologically establish markers in geologic strata, they'll fight you. However on the other hand when it comes to God's righteous will and the power of the US military, then the science seems somehow valid to them, that one could command an arsenal of massively deadly nuclear ( nookyoular) weaponry. And after all said and done in argument, radioactive material still has a half life.

Human origins slip ups and false claims in my mind are small esoteric potatoes. The base of knowledge and the redundancy in dating of the important sites in East Africa cement in the idea human origins dating to well earlier than 3.5 to 4 million years- you bet your KBS Tuff it does, from Leakey to lechery.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2017 4:53:43
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

In relation to overall amount of scientists the corrupt part of theirs must be small. The fraction of lesser educated / lesser talented ones must be much, much larger than the fraction of intentionally distorting ones. (Just think of physicians who pass exam through learning by heart / or those who do not update during career, or the incredible number who even do not understand enough basics to not routinely prescribe antibiotics for virus inflicted cases.)

However, that small number of corrupted scientists causes disproportional damage, for them typically being engaged at industrial or industrially sponsored spots where they receive all the publicity and 'credibility' they need.

From an investigative press series about pharmaceutically ignited hysteria, I remember that it took merely the bribing of 6 physicians to get the whole international cholesterol campaign rolling, -that has still not faded out after all those decades.
And I suppose that it won´t take more than one or two dozen of opportune white coats to organize most blatant of nonsense like said creationist BS.

Propaganda is an asymmetric condition. A handful claims & figures from powerful source can effectively outweigh billions of countering cases of evidence to the contrary. -Which brings us back to the relevance of education and media, and how essential it is to have no monopoly and general agenda in that realm.
Still, the sensitivity on freedom of press (whether within the branch itself or among common sense) is going downhill, instead of further up the trail in ways it was in a temporary period until ~30 years ago.

On top of informative media bundling, the original condition of the internet as alternative and network of diverse sources has been turned into domain of three major corporations / losing the informative uniqueness that had made it / ought to make it an outstanding resource.

There is a dramatic dichotomy between exploding factual knowledge and channeling of resource going on. Indicated on all kind of levels.

Just look at the current state of international affairs maturity. It has fallen way behind the level maintained even during Cold War. Displaying primary irrationality, unpredictability and impulsivity that could potentially blow us back to times of Untermassfeld^.

Having said that, ... if only fellow creature wasn´t eliminated, personally I could see advantages to such earthy state, compared to current commodities under inhumane autocracy. Better primitive humanity than advanced state of paradox insanity.

A true pity to think of given up scientific and technological blessings, yet better without as long as them being misused for caste society and its pedestal of social desert.

Last night in a discussing between a philosopher and the blue-eyed superficiality of a writer, I heard the author mentioning "threats like the insoluble issue of automatization in the world of work".

How much brainwash did it take for to entirely adapt spoon-fed exploiter´s logic according to which automatization can only mean unemployment, incapable of seeing the congruent obvious?

Automatization under sane conditions means relief of labor in the first place. Hence many positions corresponding to modernity, with jobs of very little working hours yet sufficient to ample income provided through machine work.
All it takes to allow congruency to come through, is doing away with sponges that drain off hundreds and thousands of times worth employee´s salary.

A common sense which can instead only envision unemployment, has not just seen the emperor's new clothes but fully put them on, like sheep before the slaughterhouse.
May future archaeologic aliens be puzzled about the cuts on their digged up bones.

Even just decades ago, had you unrolled today´s contradictory intellectual development in informative times, it would had left me dumb folded. Backwards instead of forwards?! Yeah, it can be had.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2017 7:30:54
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3691
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: If you like an archaeologic whod... (in reply to Ruphus

PS:
Todays headline in Germany: Hunter killed by a wild boar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2017 9:20:04
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.09375 secs.