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Posts: 103
Joined: Mar. 15 2005
From: Toronto, Canada
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to El Becko)
Philippe,
I just bought a tutorial dvd for flamenco cajon. It may be the only one around as far as I know. It is by Guillermo McGill and you can find it on flamenco-teacher.com. Incidentally, the site owner's name is Ramin too! I still have not had a chance to watch it though!
Ramin
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RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to El Becko)
Thanks for you answers.
I found the Mc Gill DVD on the web as well. I also found 2 other ones: Método Dale de percussion by Juan Heredia (but I am afraid it is only in Spanish) and La percusión en el flamenco by Nan Mercader.
I was just wondering which one would be the best. I guess I’ll go for the McGill, which seems to be more comprehensive (it is actually a 2 DVD set, first one showing the basics, second one with applications to the main palos) and to be more appealing.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to El Becko)
BUMP!
any updates on this subject?
can anyone recommend/review any of these methods mentioned above?
I need to get a cajon tutorial DVD for someone for xmas. She has the Paquito Gonzalez one, but says it is too difficult. I'm thinking that one is probably the equivalent of Encuentro vids for guitar, and she needs like Graf-Martinez or Oscar Herrero level equivalent!
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
BUMP!
any updates on this subject?
can anyone recommend/review any of these methods mentioned above?
I need to get a cajon tutorial DVD for someone for xmas. She has the Paquito Gonzalez one, but says it is too difficult. I'm thinking that one is probably the equivalent of Encuentro vids for guitar, and she needs like Graf-Martinez or Oscar Herrero level equivalent!
If you care about her seriously advancing on the instrument, get her a book of snare drum rudiments....and a metronome.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
a book of snare drum rudiments....and a metronome.
She has a metronome, and her footwork is pretty neat. She has a good ear and can pick things up quick by watching and listening. She gets confused by a lot of explanations and maths type counting. I don't think a book is gonna work, but a DVD would be ideal. What are "snare drum rudiments" and how do they relate to cajon?
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to El Becko)
rudiments are rudiments-things every percussionist learns be they a cajon player, a marching band drummer, or a bongo player. I think what Ricardo was getting at is the fact that no matter one's chosen drum(s), being able to execute precise rhythmic figures is what is needed. Not that lessons from an actual cajon player who knows flamenco wouldn't be of incredible value. I'm guessing Ricardo has had to endure cajonists who needed work on the rudiments.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
If you care about her seriously advancing on the instrument
ok, I should have replied to this part of Ricardo's post. I care about her seriously starting on the instrument.
I really think she needs instruction on how to use her hands on the cajon, ie. basic technique.
And to hold her interest she needs to learn how to apply that basic technique to flamenco compás.
She has a good ear and sense of timing and rhythm, just needs demonstration of what to do she can follow.
I very much doubt she would have the interest or discipline to follow a whole lot of drum exercises and first figure out how to perform them with her hands on a cajon, then how to apply them to flamenco compás....
Actually I know for a fact that it would kill it stone dead for her....
Think about if your kid wanted to learn cajon, would you give them 50 exercises to learn? No, you would need to find a way to make it fun for them.
Loads of kids get turned off music lessons by being made to practise loads of scales and arpegios they can't see the point of and that bore them stupid.
(just to point out that for me it's different, I practise scales and arpegios etc. for half an hour every day, use metronome etc. etc., and I am just being realistic about this cajon thing)
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to mark indigo)
It's hard to giftwrap free online lessons, but Guillermo Garcia has two series of cajon lessons on his youtube channel: original series (23 lessons) and the more recent new series (8 lessons). His website http://www.todocajon.com is currently being overhauled. I don't play cajon myself, but, after a while, looking at those flipper-like hands churning out flamenco rythms is weirdly mesmerizing.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
She has a metronome, and her footwork is pretty neat.
quote:
why the eye rolling?
you recommended to get her a metronome, I told you she has a metronome.
I also mentioned footwork because that is the context she has the metronome for, ie. she takes flamenco dance classes and uses the metronome for practise.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I really think she needs instruction on how to use her hands on the cajon, ie. basic technique.
quote:
That's what rudiments are for precisely. How to alternate the hands in specific patterns to make rhythm.
you may already have plenty of guitar students, but have you ever overheard a classical guitar teacher say to a prospective student who wants to learn flamenco "learn to read music and play classical guitar first (ie. have lessons with me), then you can learn flamenco afterwards"
or perhaps you have heard someone say something like "to understand modern flamenco you have to learn jazz theory"
this is someone who wants to learn flamenco rhythms on the cajon, not abstract drum rhythms, however "rudimental" they are.
The opening of the thread read
quote:
Does anyone have any good advice about a tutorial DVD which would be a good introduction to the cajon?
various DVD's were mentioned.
I want to get a DVD as an xmas present, and wondered if anyone could give info on any of the DVD's mentioned.
thanks for your help, but I think you are missing or ignoring or arguing with the various points that I have tried to make about what I think is appropriate.
I understand about rudiments, but I think if those rudiments can be demonstrated on the actual instrument it will work, and if not it probably won't.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
quote:needs to be flamenco too, you know, like what we recommend for beginners, compás, compás, compas If you can't even be bothered to check that it "is flamenco too", I am done with this topic.
I played at an event last summer that the lady in the link you posted also appeared at. I saw her on the publicity, but she performed on a different day to me so I missed her. I did look her up online afterwards though, and watched some of her youtube video's with her group. Didn't seem to very flamenco to me.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
I played at an event last summer that the lady in the link you posted also appeared at. I saw her on the publicity, but she performed on a different day to me so I missed her. I did look her up online afterwards though, and watched some of her youtube video's with her group. Didn't seem to very flamenco to me.
So much bla bla bla and you still can't get yourself to just click the link and browse the videos before talking crap?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
She has a metronome, and her footwork is pretty neat.
quote:
why the eye rolling?
you recommended to get her a metronome, I told you she has a metronome.
I also mentioned footwork because that is the context she has the metronome for, ie. she takes flamenco dance classes and uses the metronome for practise.
Pretty much every dance student thinks because they have learned compas and some escobilla that banging on a box is easy and fun stuff. 9 out of 10 that think this sit down and start banging away at buleria and they can't even alternate the hands evenly or with any dynamic at all. From there it gets worse.
Rudiments are inherent to all music. That is INFACT what the dancers are learning to do with their feet in dance class, whether they realize it or not. I recommend the same drum book to any guitar student of any style, it helps to know how to execute and work through rhythmic "problems" using whatever technique you need. Scales and theory are a DIFFERENT matter entirely.
There are different disciplines of course, the flamenco way would be for her to go to Spain and hang with the TOP level players and have them show her the rudiments they do. But it's not an option and Paquito is too advanced? She can't get it from the video, then she obviously needs work on rudimentary rhythms....there is no source more simple than one of those books for 11 year old kids on rudiments, if it is going to be self study at home.
The more advanced drummers I saw practicing on pads in the dorm at school would do these repetitive exercises with one hand repeating several measures (usually just straight th notes) then switch....until some level of control and uniformity is achieved. No matter how complex it got they would always go back to basic exercises and I realized all instrumentalists should be doing the same thing. Regardless if you want to read music or not, having a strong command over basic rudimentary phrases of rhythm allow the student to learn and memorize music much faster, not unlike speaking a language. In Indian music, they have a system that superficially looks like "drum language" but ALL the musicians and singers learn it and base everything they do on that. It is not about "abstract" rhythms that have nothing to do with whatever specific genre, this is about BASIC time keeping.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to El Becko)
This is coming out sounding like:
"I want this thing but I don't really want to look for it, if it says "Easy Thing 123" on the title, that should do it. Also, it must be the kind of learning material that works for people who aren't that much interested in learning about this subject."
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
If you can't even be bothered to check that it "is flamenco too", I am done with this topic.
quote:
So much bla bla bla and you still can't get yourself to just click the link and browse the videos before talking crap?
Amazing..
quote:
This is coming out sounding like:
"I want this thing but I don't really want to look for it, if it says "Easy Thing 123" on the title, that should do it. Also, it must be the kind of learning material that works for people who aren't that much interested in learning about this subject."
putting these can't disguise or excuse the fact that you are ****ing rude
not only that you don't seem to have read either the subject of the thread (DVD) or my request (DVD), or that I tried to explain to you that I already looked at the vids in the link you posted, and most of it is pop/rock/funk/hip-hop stuff. sure, there is some tangos and bulerías, but it's still not a dvd (and I have been bothered to email her to ask about an instructional DVD that I saw mentioned when I was bothered to check her website too, but I don't know if it is actually available, and really I'm looking for something that is all flamenco content not just a small part flamenco content with a whole lot of other stuff), and it's not for me, I said I wanted it for a xmas present!
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Pretty much every dance student thinks because they have learned compas and some escobilla that banging on a box is easy and fun stuff. 9 out of 10 that think this sit down and start banging away at buleria and they can't even alternate the hands evenly or with any dynamic at all. From there it gets worse.
tell me about it, and not just dancers, guitarists too... that's why I want to help with some instruction stuff.
But I know the person this is for well, so I need to find something that will click with her. I mentioned that her footwork was "neat" because she has a really good ear, and if shown something will be able to pick it up, IF she has some kind of technique to execute it with (ie. hands on box).
I will check out what she is finding too difficult. It might be as simple as not being used to self-study with a DVD. my guess is that she wants like a class where she spends an hour or two doing stuff interactively at the same level, and on a DVD you just need to use the rewind button to keep going over whatever part you are working on. I am used to learning guitar with dvd lessons etc. so that actually hadn't occurred to me before. (and if I was me wanting to learn the cajon no doubt I would be working through those drum pattern vids).
quote:
Rudiments are inherent to all music. That is INFACT what the dancers are learning to do with their feet in dance class, whether they realize it or not. I recommend the same drum book to any guitar student of any style, it helps to know how to execute and work through rhythmic "problems" using whatever technique you need. Scales and theory are a DIFFERENT matter entirely.
I understand the rudiments thing, and that that is what dancers are doing with their feet - so in theory she could take the footwork patterns and apply them to the cajon, just like she could take drum patterns and apply them to the cajon, but I don't think that's going to happen, I think she probably needs to watch else someone doing that on the cajon, at least until she has a basic facility on the cajon.
I might have got this completely wrong and totally misunderstood, but coming at I from a guitar perspective I'm thinking that a beginner on the guitar with no previous experience needs to be shown what to do with the hands, how to touch/strike the strings, how to execute rasgueados etc. and then can take rudimental rhythm patterns from any source and play them on the guitar. So I'm thinking of a similar first step for cajon
btw what is the book you recommend, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work for her, but I might take a look
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
putting these can't disguise or excuse the fact that you are ****ing rude
Sorry, that tends to happen when people start contradicting themselves a lot or making an effort just not to "give in" into what others are trying to explain.
Just like you did here once again:
quote:
not only that you don't seem to have read either the subject of the thread (DVD) or my request (DVD), or that I tried to explain to you that I already looked at the vids in the link you posted, and most of it is pop/rock/funk/hip-hop stuff. sure, there is some tangos and bulerías, but it's still not a dvd (and I have been bothered to email her to ask about an instructional DVD that I saw mentioned when I was bothered to check her website too, but I don't know if it is actually available, and really I'm looking for something that is all flamenco content not just a small part flamenco content with a whole lot of other stuff), and it's not for me, I said I wanted it for a xmas present!
It's ok not to follow other people's advice but you've been pissing all over everyone in this thread.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to El Becko)
+1 for rudiments.
I will append the statement and say that percussion rudiments are critical for almost all percussion instruments. They are not as fun as content and applied technique but they teach the dexterity, consistency, and technique required to execute rhythmic patterns on any instrument.
But, it isn't a zero sum game. You can also provide the flamenco cajon DVD and other instruction. This way she has something to enjoy and look forward to that captures her interest to go with the rudiments which will help her improve technically so that she can execute the artistic stuff.
No one that I have met ever wanted a rudiments book when they first started playing. I never had a rudiments book until I met drummers in college who were really good. Then I started practicing out of their books and my guitar playing got about 40% better!
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
quote:putting these can't disguise or excuse the fact that you are ****ing rude Sorry, that tends to happen when people start contradicting themselves a lot or making an effort just not to "give in" into what others are trying to explain. Just like you did here once again: quote:not only that you don't seem to have read either the subject of the thread (DVD) or my request (DVD), or that I tried to explain to you that I already looked at the vids in the link you posted, and most of it is pop/rock/funk/hip-hop stuff. sure, there is some tangos and bulerías, but it's still not a dvd (and I have been bothered to email her to ask about an instructional DVD that I saw mentioned when I was bothered to check her website too, but I don't know if it is actually available, and really I'm looking for something that is all flamenco content not just a small part flamenco content with a whole lot of other stuff), and it's not for me, I said I wanted it for a xmas present! It's ok not to follow other people's advice but you've been pissing all over everyone in this thread.
I don't think I've been "pissing over" anyone.
I will make this really simple:
I want to get someone a xmas present gift (rules out weblink to youtube vids)
they don't read any kind of musical notation and likely will not start learning any time soon (rules out book)
they do however learn well by listening and watching (DVD ideal)
they have a cajon and want to learn to play it.
I "bothered" to search the foro archives for "cajon tutorial DVD" and found this thread.
several DVD's were mentioned but no one seemed to have any info about them.
I asked if anyone had any info about them.
if you don't have any info about them that's fine, no need to get pissy with me if your "advice" doesn't seem appropriate - I cannot give a weblink to youtube vids as an xmas present, or a book of notation in this instance. It doesn't really matter how good the advice is to look at youtube vids or get a book if neither of those things are appropriate as an xmas gift for this person - I don't really understand why you're having such trouble understanding that.
I already said if it was for myself I would be looking at the snare drum rudiments book. I have no formal musical training, I don't have a degree in music etc. and I have never been aware of this before. I already asked Ricardo if he would post the name of the book as I'd like to take a look for myself.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to mark indigo)
For instance, the way you went about rudiments, Heidi (almost saw her live, no flamenco, some flamenco, not interested on the dvd, contacted to know about the dvd, etc).
I just think that sometimes it's better to listen carefuly to the "why" when people suggest something. Very often it changes our perspective regarding what we think we want/need.
I think it would be a good gift if the DVD was something a bit more advanced or technical.. if someone's really interested on a subject, a few "beginners youtube lessons" like the one's on Heidi's channel is more than enough (covers hand technique, posture, bulerias, tangos, rumbas, etc). Not only that but also the fact that she will probably treasure more a "solid rhytmic concepts" DVD than a "begginers course to tap on a box", even if it seems too advanced at first.. surely will have more replay value.
RE: Introduction to the cajon (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
For instance, the way you went about rudiments, Heidi (almost saw her live, no flamenco, some flamenco, not interested on the dvd, contacted to know about the dvd, etc). I just think that sometimes it's better to listen carefuly to the "why" when people suggest something. Very often it changes our perspective regarding what we think we want/need. I think it would be a good gift if the DVD was something a bit more advanced or technical.. if someone's really interested on a subject, a few "beginners youtube lessons" like the one's on Heidi's channel is more than enough (covers hand technique, posture, bulerias, tangos, rumbas, etc). Not only that but also the fact that she will probably treasure more a "solid rhytmic concepts" DVD than a "begginers course to tap on a box", even if it seems too advanced at first.. surely will have more replay value.
ok, now I make it even more really simple for you:
quote:
I need to get a cajon tutorial DVD for someone for xmas.
but don't worry, I will just get her something else.
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