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Inglés

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 20 2017
 

Flamenco virgin ... what to learn first? 

I'm totally new to flamenco guitar - I've played the guitar around 20 years so basic technique is pretty good but brand new to the various flamenco techniques. I'm just teaching myself using youtube for now - I know a teacher would be far better but it isn't feasible for me right now.

With that in mind - what are the best techniques to focus on first? My first point of call has been strumming, especially golpe strumming - I started with this video of bulerias strumming:



...to get a feel for the mix of golpes/strumming styles, and just started practicing golpe+p and golpe+i strums and trying to build up to slowly playing sections of the pattern.

Is this a good way to start, or does anyone have any better suggestions?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2017 18:31:17
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

Hmmm. I'm gonna say that this video isn't the right place to start, without having watched it. Rule of thumb: the quality of the content of a YouTube video is inversely proportional to the amount of cleavage shown in the thumbnail.
Try atrafana's channel. He has a lot of good stuff for beginners.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2017 19:12:13
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

+1 on Atrafana.
Probably the best place to start for free stuff.
Also check out Adam Delmonte videos.

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2017 19:47:33
 
Escribano

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

General opinion was to study Soleá. It has all the techniques you need and can be played nice and slow. Plenty of material out there. Look for Paco Peña and Manuel Granados.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2017 19:53:21
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Cervantes

quote:

Try atrafana's channel. He has a lot of good stuff for beginners.


quote:

+1 on Atrafana.
Probably the best place to start for free stuff.


free stuff on youtube? go with this recommendation

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 1 2017 20:18:21
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

quote:

+1 on Atrafana.
Probably the best place to start for free stuff.

Yup, and start with solea.
Bulerias is too hard to start with, and this guy strumming pattern is pretty crazy. What is this? Cano Roto stuff??

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 1:01:59
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1806
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

Sice you already play, you don’t need a beginners’ tutor. Get one on that assumes you already play the guitar.

There are two time-tested ones:

Dennis Koster: The Keys to Flamenco Guitar (3 vols):

https://www.amazon.com/Keys-Flamenco-Guitar-1/dp/0786673486/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Gerhard Graf-Martínez: Flamenco Guitar Method (2 vols, with videos)

https://www.amazon.com/Flamenco-Guitar-Method-Book-Schott/dp/3795757681/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1504328491&sr=1-1&keywords=Gerhard+Graf-Mart%C3%ADnez

I can recommend both.

(Juan Grecos’s The Flamenco Guitar is also excellent, but it’s just the book ‚ no CDs or DVDs.)

https://www.amazon.com/Flamenco-Guitar-Juan-D-Grecos/dp/B004NRT2PA/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1504328693&sr=1-1&keywords=Juan+Grecos+flamenco+guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 5:02:49
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Hmmm. I'm gonna say that this video isn't the right place to start, without having watched it. Rule of thumb: the quality of the content of a YouTube video is inversely proportional to the amount of cleavage shown in the thumbnail.


Perhaps you should have watched the video first ...o ye of little faith... ive seen this guy before and he has some good stuff...not begginners ,, but ...have alook

Remember ..always trust in El Kiko

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 7:43:33
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to El Kiko

And ....No. 2 .... Why are you telling people to go elsewhere ? including our glorious leader?
the place to go is here ,, there is a billion falsetas made by us , you can directly ask a question to the player ,, theres tons of players , theres loads of advice
weve spent years setting it all up ....


... and our top tip is ,,,Go somewhere else ....????


Remember ..always trust El Kiko...

theres beginners stuff here ,,,I even made some myself

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 7:48:30
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

o ye of little faith...


Life's too short. That kind of click bait trick shuts me down as quickly as those patreon messages that say something like "if you pay for my trip to Spain, you'll get to share in an incredible adventure. I'll send you short videos where you can vicariously enjoy how wonderful my life is while you slave away to pay for it. If you give a lot, I might even send you a sticker."
But if you tell me that girl has any kind of relevance to the video and it's not a trick, I might just watch.

Agreed that the foro is the best resource out there, provided you're willing to rummage around in the archives a bit.

edit: looks like were all off topic anyways except Escribano.
For techniques, I'd start with thumb and p+i, getting the flamenco way of doing those techniques (especially if you come from a classical background). Then some basic rasgueados.
Start with solea like Escribano said, learning the basic compas and some thumb falsetas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 8:06:12
 
Escribano

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

Why are you telling people to go elsewhere


Because, he's already here. Point taken though.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 8:07:58
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Piwin

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=204445&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1


There you go , something i made yeears ago ... theres better , theres worse ,,
Its solear , not fast ,
theres beginners to flamenco who played the guitar for years and then thers beginners to the guitar and flamenco , the material would be different , so its hard to judge ...


I dunno .....

trust in El KIko ...maybe ..?

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 11:10:46
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to El Kiko

Olé!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 11:24:24
 
Stu

Posts: 2588
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Rule of thumb: the quality of the content of a YouTube video is inversely proportional to the amount of cleavage shown in the thumbnail.




Yeah definitely. And those big bold letters!???
Usually a signal to run a mile.
Will undoubtedly be some American rocker playing f and e on a steel string acoustic.

Usually... Apparently not this time tho.

Good suggestions of what videos to look at. Am I allowed to tell him what not to look at??

Steer clear of doctor Diaz!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 14:46:06
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Steer clear of doctor Diaz!!

your not allowed to mention his name out loud here ..

Kinda like Voldemort
.
.
ooops


and if you say it 3 times he appears ..........

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 15:01:27
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Stu

quote:

And those big bold letters!???


Yeah those big bold....uh...letters!
At least 140 dollars worth of big boldness.

I decided to trust El Kiko, and yeah it's not bad. Not something to start with but not bad. Looks more like a rumbero technique than flamenco per se. I associate that upward thumb golpe with rumba. Anyone know of any flamenco guitarists who use that technique? Or maybe it's just fallen out of use like the thumb golpe on the top plate?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 15:42:34
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

here's another little tip: don't go for books or scores.

Flamenco is an oral culture. If you don't already, get used to learning and playing by ear.

If/when you go to a class or course with a teacher they won't hand out sheets or write out scores for you (unless they are already corrupted by the evils of musical literacy ), and you will be expected to pick things up by ear (and eye).

If/when you play for a dance class they won't hand you a score to play from, you will be expected to follow what's going on by ear (and eye). Ditto singers.

If you already read music, don't use it for flamenco. Remember, the "urtext" in flamenco is the composers live or recorded performance, and all written flamenco music is at best an interpretation of the composers intention, and at worst just plain wrong (in classical music it's the other way around, ie. the written score is the composers original, and all performances and recordings are "interpretations").

If you don't already read music, don't waste time learning until you can already play everything Paco de Lucía recorded and accompany every style and variation of cante by ear and from memory. After that it won't hurt to learn to read music if you really want to....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 16:36:08
 
Inglés

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 20 2017
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

Thanks for the advice everyone. For the record it wasn't the cleavage I swear, the original version of that video has a much less seductive thumbnail but the sound is messed up so it led me to that one. I'm not that easily led astray by a flash of cleavage, cross my heart...

Good advice to start with soleá, I had a go at one I found and seemed like an easier place to start. Found it at random on youtube (Diego de Oro - judging by the accent I think he's Canadian), lots of lovely rasgueado which is a good place to start since a) I've already got a relatively decent handle on it - plus b) a good rasgueado is just such a damn good sound and a satisfying feeling isn't it?!

I'll check out some of the youtube channels suggested over the next couple of days and let you know how it goes!


quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

here's another little tip: don't go for books or scores.

Flamenco is an oral culture. If you don't already, get used to learning and playing by ear.

If/when you go to a class or course with a teacher they won't hand out sheets or write out scores for you (unless they are already corrupted by the evils of musical literacy ), and you will be expected to pick things up by ear (and eye).

If/when you play for a dance class they won't hand you a score to play from, you will be expected to follow what's going on by ear (and eye). Ditto singers.

If you already read music, don't use it for flamenco. Remember, the "urtext" in flamenco is the composers live or recorded performance, and all written flamenco music is at best an interpretation of the composers intention, and at worst just plain wrong (in classical music it's the other way around, ie. the written score is the composers original, and all performances and recordings are "interpretations").

If you don't already read music, don't waste time learning until you can already play everything Paco de Lucía recorded and accompany every style and variation of cante by ear and from memory. After that it won't hurt to learn to read music if you really want to....


Don't worry I won't, my guitar background is rock/pop, basically anything I've ever learned has been from listening to a record with some basic tab in front of me, I have no attachment to standard notation.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

For techniques, I'd start with thumb and p+i, getting the flamenco way of doing those techniques


For example ... ?


quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

quote:

Steer clear of doctor Diaz!!

your not allowed to mention his name out loud here ..

Kinda like Voldemort
.
.
ooops


and if you say it 3 times he appears ..........


Dare I ask who this Dr Diaz is, and how I can best avoid him/her?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2017 19:42:49
 
Escribano

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

quote:

lots of lovely rasgueado which is a good place to start since a) I've already got a relatively decent handle on it - plus b) a good rasgueado is just such a damn good sound and a satisfying feeling isn't it?!


Yes, indeed. If I was starting over again, I would focus on a decent rasgueado in compás, or it's pointless.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2017 21:03:31
 
Escribano

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

quote:

Dare I ask who this Dr Diaz is, and how I can best avoid him/her?


No you can't. Even the mention of his name causes a disturbance in the force.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2017 21:06:36
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

quote:

For example ... ?


I just posted a reply to that but it somehow disappeared. Not sure what I did.
Short version: here's atrafana's breakdown of the technique:



If you play pulgar falsetas in the classical position you just won't get that flamenco punch to it. I think he also has some pulgar exercices on there and in El Kiko's thread there are several passages that use that technique.
And for stumming patterns, I also think it's better to start with Something where your thumb is anchored to the guitar (often on the 6th string). It's like having a starting position that your hand can always come back to, and that helps with economy of movement. The strumming pattern in that first video you posted isn't anchored anywhere so if you started out with that, you might end up going all over the place, whereas if you have in mind that starting position you'll tend to stay close to that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2017 21:20:55
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

For example ... ?

i just posted a reply to that too, and mine disappeared as well... and the post i replied to has gone.... disturbance in the force indeed!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2017 23:09:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

Learn the tonos for arriba and por medio. And solea and siguiriya compas.

Then take Skype lessons with a known player who has both tradition and modern chops. Or just old style chops. Or take lessons with a live old style player first.

You tube is good for a reference and expansion of your knowledge, but don't allow it to displace professional teaching. You tube does not replace the professional teacher. We're all fighting the battlefield of amateur vs. professional, support the professional with in person or Skype lessons.

Have enough class and respect for the art to seek out and pay for professional teaching. Books and YouTube are supplement material. And use the foro for extra help and learning from the collective knowledge that is kept here. Please.

If you are in a cost prohibitive situation on lessons cost, listen deeply to the accompaniment por solea and not solea solo playing. Get old and new recordings por solea with singers and saturate your musical brain in that soup. My advice is forget solos as listening material, but play solos to learn. Listen to Paco Aguilar play solea comp for Juan Talega. Then something more modern and of the day, but solo records are death.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 6:01:37
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Inglés

Here are two (hopefully) relevant extracts from a commercially available DVD. Obviously you should support the artist by buying the DVD (I have), or taking lessons from him.





(these are the vids in the post that disappeared)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 10:29:14
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to mark indigo

The disturbance in the force was so strong that Oscar's hair grew back!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 10:49:17
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

The disturbance in the force was so strong that Oscar's hair grew back!


nice tank top too, though not strictly necessary for the development of good thumb technique

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 11:58:48
 
Stu

Posts: 2588
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

My advice is forget solos as listening material, but play solos to learn. Listen to Paco Aguilar play solea comp for Juan Talega. Then something more modern and of the day, but solo records are death.


Why are solo records death?

When I started out, they were life. Cante was death. If anything was gonna scare me away by hurting my ears and making me feel isolated, it was an old Spanish geezer whining in a language I couldn't understand on a crackly recording.

Yes now, many years later I love that sound. And appreciate it is the most important part of flamenco. I'm still exploring and understanding it and I've a long way to go. But without many hrs listening to solo guitar albums as a newcomer, I'm not certain I would've stuck around to really discover cante and how the guitarist accompanys it.

I'm not an oddity either. Solo guitar is a good way in for many no??

I mean jeez, for a newcomer curious and titillated by the sound of flamenco guitar, listening to a Gerardo Nunez solo album or discovering Vicentes de mi corazon al aire was massive!! I wouldn't want anyone to miss those moments.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 12:34:02
 
Escribano

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Stu

quote:

I'm not an oddity either. Solo guitar is a good way in for many no??


I guess nearly all of us came in via some form of that or the Gypsy Kings. I heard Entre Dos Aguas, and bought the single, in the 70s when visiting Alicante.

Later, listening to lots of soléa with cante was indispensable for me. To appreciate the role of the guitar, the structure and dynamics of the palo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 12:49:05
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Stu

quote:

listening to a Gerardo Nunez solo album or discovering Vicentes de mi corazon al aire was massive


+1

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 15:12:21
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2202
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Flamenco virgin ... what to lear... (in reply to Stu

quote:

Why are solo records death?


If you just want to play guitar, bueno. But you should know that if you come to Andalucía and open a guitar case, someone will begin to sing.

If you do not know how to accompany, you will be dismissed as a guitar player, however well you should play I have seen it lots of times.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2017 15:16:11
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