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Non-"flamenco" sitting position   You are logged in as Guest
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soclydeza85

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 27 2017
 

Non-"flamenco" sitting pos... 

All this time I've been sitting in the PdL position (right leg crossed over left). This alignment is really awkward for my wrist; not painful but not natural, I feel like I have to constantly remind myself to angle my hand and it makes playing some techniques feel held-back.

Today I was messing around with different positions and tried the traditional "classical" position (left leg elevated on stool, guitar resting on left leg). My wrist felt much more comfortable as I was able to alighn it without having to bend my wrist and I also felt like this position naturally secured the guitar better to allow my left and right hands more freedom. And for those of you that noticed my "Arpeggio Critique" thread, this position actually makes my arpeggios feel a bit better.

Is it common to sit in a non-Flamenco position (this includes the tradition position where the guitar is angled and rests on the right leg, definitely not comfortable for me)? Is it in direct violation "unspeakable code of flamenco" to play in an alternate position like this?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 16:18:02
 
Cloth Ears

 

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

Vicente sometimes sits non crossed legs as his years of sitting in the position have given him back pain.

Whatever works for you is my advice. Obviously the musculature and ligaments are in different positions with the classic and flamenco postures, and this will have advantages and drawbacks depending on what you are doing. For instance, I find parts of some classical pieces much harder to play when cross legged. I don't think I could do alzapua in the classical position.

I sometimes jump offstage while doing picado and land doing the splits in my favourite spandex activewear.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 17:15:41
 
Leñador

Posts: 5225
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

There are many "flamenco sitting positions" to try and guitar supports. Classical position will make alzapua and rasgeado impossible.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 17:33:06
 
soclydeza85

 

Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 27 2017
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

Yeah I noticed alzapua and rasgeado feel different, but doable (I suppose what I was trying may be more of a pseudo-classical posture, not as deep/angled).

I've continued experimenting with this since making this post and found that the PdL is a lot more comfortable if I don't use my upper arm as the resting point on the guitar but instead pull my arm up a bit so that my forearm is resting kind of on the edge (maybe an inch or two in from my elbow). I'm not a super tall person (maybe 5'10"-11") but my arm feels like it is too long to comfortably play with my upper arm/bicep resting on top like I usually see other players doing; it forces me to bend my wrist to align it, especially for arpeggios and picado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 18:01:32
 
mrstwinkle

 

Posts: 282
Joined: May 14 2017
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

Stool (in my case overturned expresso jar) works best for me. Frankly, I don't care if it looks 'flamenco' - and heck, even Tomatito uses one these days.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 20:00:40
 
Leñador

Posts: 5225
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

Yeah the foot stool seems to be more accepted these days, as long as it's not on your left foot.
Been considering it myself....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 20:24:15
 
pundi64

Posts: 235
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

Even the great Flamenco guitarist Sabicas sat in the Classical position, left foot on foot stool, I
think Flamenco purists, are too rigid in their "have to do like this" do "that way", I personally use Sabicus's sitting position, anything cross legged is to awkward, and un comfortable for me, and I really don't give a damn what people say, or think.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 21:53:56
 
pundi64

Posts: 235
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

quote:

ORIGINAL: soclydeza85

All this time I've been sitting in the PdL position (right leg crossed over left). This alignment is really awkward for my wrist; not painful but not natural, I feel like I have to constantly remind myself to angle my hand and it makes playing some techniques feel held-back.

Today I was messing around with different positions and tried the traditional "classical" position (left leg elevated on stool, guitar resting on left leg). My wrist felt much more comfortable as I was able to alighn it without having to bend my wrist and I also felt like this position naturally secured the guitar better to allow my left and right hands more freedom. And for those of you that noticed my "Arpeggio Critique" thread, this position actually makes my arpeggios feel a bit better.

Is it common to sit in a non-Flamenco position (this includes the tradition position where the guitar is angled and rests on the right leg, definitely not comfortable for me)? Is it in direct violation "unspeakable code of flamenco" to play in an alternate position like this?

Sit the way in which feels most comfortable for you ! There is no real right or wrong way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 21:55:57

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to pundi64

What's on that picture isn't the classical position. The guitar would have to be couched on his left leg, not sitting on top of his right.
But agreed, people should do whatever works best for them although to be honest I haven't really heard anyone in flamenco get all high and mighty about guitar position.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 22:00:37
 
Leñador

Posts: 5225
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

I wouldn't call that classical position really..... it's the traditional old school flamenco position with a foot stool added. That's the position I use now but without the foot stool, not exactly sure what the stool is doing for him if the bout is resting on his right leg.....he must have had a reason...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 22:03:31
 
pundi64

Posts: 235
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

What's on that picture isn't the classical position. The guitar would have to be couched on his left leg, not sitting on his right.
But agreed, people should do whatever works best for them although to be honest I haven't really heard anyone in flamenco get all high and mighty about guitar position.


I play with a leg rest, so couched on the right leg, your an example of perfectionist.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 22:04:07

Piwin

Posts: 2164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to Leñador

Lifting the left leg squeezes the sphincter a bit and keeps you from farting mid-performance.
(secretly hoping that someone will actually buy this explanation!)

edit: pundi64 You misunderstand me. I don't care how you or anybody holds the guitar (as I said: "people should do whatever works best for them"). All I was saying is that what is commonly known as the classical guitar position and taught in music conservatories all over the world is not this, not what Sabicas is doing here. It's not the way he's holding the guitar that is wrong, it's calling that "the classical position" that's wrong. It's just a matter of terminology.

I tend to use the traditional flamenco position for practice. Seems to be easier on the back when you're just doing the same thing for hours and hours. In performances it really depends though overall I think I favor the PdL position for some reason.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 22:05:41
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1761
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to pundi64

I always feel more comfortable playing guitar after, and definetly not before, dropping a large stool.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 22:11:00
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1761
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
not exactly sure what the stool is doing for him if the bout is resting on his right leg.....he must have had a reason...

Free up the right arm a bit would be my guess.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 22:13:42
 
Leñador

Posts: 5225
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

Ah, makes sense, that's one of the issues why I may move to foot stool........That and I feel like I'd be better with less angle......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2017 22:42:24
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2553
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to pundi64

quote:

ORIGINAL: pundi64

Even the great Flamenco guitarist Sabicas sat in the Classical position, left foot on foot stool, I
think Flamenco purists, are too rigid in their "have to do like this" do "that way", I personally use Sabicus's sitting position, anything cross legged is to awkward, and un comfortable for me, and I really don't give a damn what people say, or think.




Looking closely at Sabicas, you will note that most of the time the guitar doesn't touch the left leg. Most of the time the guitar is still supported between the right upper arm and the right thigh, the "old school" flamenco position.

Sabicas often moved the right hand between the bridge and the fretboard while doing extended rasgueados. While he still used the "old school' position with both feet flat on the floor, the guitar was supported by the left hand on the neck during these sweeping rasgueado gestures.

Sabicas adopted the pseudo classical position only quite late in his career. I never saw him use it in person--the last time I saw him live was in 1965. Maybe the guitar touched the left leg while he did those rasgueado sweeps?

RNJ

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2017 1:13:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11031
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to pundi64

quote:

ORIGINAL: pundi64

Even the great Flamenco guitarist Sabicas sat in the Classical position, left foot on foot stool, I
think Flamenco purists, are too rigid in their "have to do like this" do "that way", I personally use Sabicus's sitting position, anything cross legged is to awkward, and un comfortable for me, and I really don't give a damn what people say, or think.




Well he adopted what is obviously the classical sitting position, with the footstool left foot insanely high up, but he doesnt' rest the waist of the guitar on the left leg, which twists your back uncomfortably. So he is a little more square, however his leaning over the neck might of given him back problems though I have never heard of him complaining. Anyway, it looks like the same as trad flamenco with feet flat but he rarely lifts the guitar off the knee to support with left hand, the whole purpose of the footstool is to support the guitar up, as you can see here:



After all I support the idea of changing positions while playing to avoid strain. I might practice make a switch in mid song in some cases.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2017 14:22:31
 
rob2966

 

Posts: 18
Joined: Dec. 7 2015
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

When I started learning flamenco a few years ago I tried all the various positions I saw famous players using online. I could not comfortably sit like PDL for any length of time so that was a no. I found the Sabicas way the most comfortable, lower bout resting on right leg. I usually also have both feet on the floor but find a stool on the left leg works well too.

In the end, you have to be comfortable.

Later
Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 20 2017 21:47:41
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 18 2005
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

There are many "flamenco sitting positions" to try and guitar supports. Classical position will make alzapua and rasgeado impossible.

Not exactly true. I did a passable alza pua as well as about 20 different rasgueado variations playing exclusively in classical position; however I preferred to play in traditional position (both feet on the floor, guitar on the r. hip) when accompanying since it didn't give me a stiff neck.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 20 2017 23:39:32
 
Leñador

Posts: 5225
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

Fair enough, impossible maybe not the right word. Highly "unergonomic " let's say.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2017 1:12:07
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

*flamenco schtuhl*

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2017 7:53:42
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 2553
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to Ricardo

Yes, in the guajiras clip he's resting the guitar's upper bout on the left thigh.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2017 23:23:38
 
jalalkun

Posts: 249
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to soclydeza85

can one say that sometimes the dimensions of the guitar don't fit the body proportions of the player and thus holding the guitar feels weird or uncomfortable? I have had this problem with my current guitar ever since I got it. I just feel that it is too small for my arms/upper body, especially in the lower bout.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 14:39:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11031
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to jalalkun

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalalkun

can one say that sometimes the dimensions of the guitar don't fit the body proportions of the player and thus holding the guitar feels weird or uncomfortable? I have had this problem with my current guitar ever since I got it. I just feel that it is too small for my arms/upper body, especially in the lower bout.


Practice on ukelele for a while.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 17:58:27
 
jalalkun

Posts: 249
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Non-"flamenco" sitting... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Practice on ukelele for a while.


ok this would be like holding a frickin chicken wing. but it's actually a good idea since I also have difficulties holding an ukulele properly. I might try it out on a cheap ukulele and see what happens. thanks ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2017 19:43:48
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