Buying first flamenco guitar (~$800-1000)

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soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

Buying first flamenco guitar (~$800-...

I've been practicing flamenco this whole time on my classical and I've devoted enough time and dedication to prove to myself that this is something I will stick with long term. I'm in the process of saving up for an actual flamenco guitar and could use some advice. I plan on spending roughly $1000 (maybe $8-900 on the actual guitar so I can get myself a nice case).

1) Are there any particular guitars I should be looking at in this price range? I don't mind saving up for a bit longer if there is a particularly good one for a couple hundred dollars more.

2) Being that flamenco isn't as wide-spread as most styles, it's tough to find a place (physical shop) that sells the guitars; there are some specialty shops around that sell flamenco guitars but those are hardcore (a few thousand dollars). I don't want to drop $1000 on a guitar without playing it first so I don't want to just buy online; how should I go about doing this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 5:22:59

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Save your money, buy a Yamaha flamenco for $250-$300 and keep saving for a luthier made instrument. The $1,000 mark is the worst for good Flamenco's. Either spend 2k+ or just get a cheap Yamaha. IMO what you get for 1k is not far from a Yamaha unless you have the ability to play a bunch of used Flamenco's.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 5:44:27

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Thanks Lenador, I was looking at that Yamaha as my first actual flamenco, I was just afraid of one thing: I currently play an Ibanez AEG10N (but in black, not that that matters...) with lowered action. I've never played an actual flamenco to know just how different from a classical it is; I guess what I'm afraid of is buying the Yamaha, just to find out that it plays not too much differently from my current classical with lowered action, resulting in me having 2 guitars of the same caliber and being $300 further from my goal of getting a nice flamenco.

I guess what I'm asking is this: is the difference between $300 classical and a $300 flamenco noticeable?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 7:23:38

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Keep the Ibanez and save your money for a trip to Spain

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 12:35:47

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

A friend of mine had that ibanez it's pretty rough.....if it's going to take you more than a year to save the other 1k get the Yamaha, that that ibanez is no fun.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 14:24:57

etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Good advice about the Yamaha flamenco; I have a great Yamaha CG1712F, but they are not all the same (new models as well). If you can go to several dealers, or big box stores and play several of the Yamahas, you will see that some are better than the others. I added a bone saddle and ported mine on the upper treble bout, 1 1/2"port, and it really sounds great. I have some fine luthier guitars but the Yamaha is a go to guitar for porch playing, camping, sofa doodling, etc. The advice about "$1000" guitars is right; you won't gain much even with a new $1500-2000 guitar; a good used upper end guitar might do better if you find one. To start, and to have as an extra guitar later, the Yamaha can't be beat.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 15:37:58

benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

heyho, as far as i have heard, the francisco navarro estudio guitars seem to be the best option in this price class. that are all solid guitars build by marlon navarro, available in palo ecrito and cypress. cost around 1000 dollar. check out there homepage, foro reviews, youtube etc.
greetings,
ben

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 16:24:29

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Thanks for the advice, everyone, I've decided to get the Yamaha (which I already have the money for). The only problem is that no stores around me seem to have it available, which leaves me with two options: buy it online and have it shipped, or drive up to Staten Island (about 45-60mins from me) to buy a used one from a Craigslist ad for 285.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 17:31:40

benros

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

okay, but i think you will be disappointed by this crap factory guitar soon and if you then look out again for a affordable handmade flamenca, consider the navarro estudio (but then it will probably cost some hundred dollars more)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 17:55:00

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to benros)

quote:

francisco navarro estudio

I must've missed your last post. I checked out their website, they do seem really nice and the student model is in that price range. I think I'm going to devise a plan that involves me getting the Yamaha (as one poster mentioned, it's always nice to have a cheaper guitar that I can bring around and outside and not have to worry too much about) while selling some of my other guitars to eventually get a nice one (I have way too many guitars haha, just no flamencos). Thanks for the enlightenment

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 18:28:08

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

quote:

drive up to Staten Island (about 45-60mins from me) to buy a used one from a Craigslist ad for 285

Well that should solve your problem shouldn't it? I mean, say you're interested but would like to try it out before commiting. Give it a try in person and then you'll know whether it's Worth getting a yamaha or sticking with the one you got.
At least that's what I would do. Especially given the fact that there's always an issue of consistency with industrial guitars. Yamahas seem to be pretty consistent, but there's always a risk when getting a guitar you've never played in person.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2017 19:08:01

ric

Posts: 84
Joined: Dec. 27 2010

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

I was in your boat a number of years back when i was using my sister's Aria classical and decided to move up. Got an Esteve GR07 and really liked it, then over time decided I wanted more. Traded a person (briefly) for an Esteve flamenco and it sounded worse than the classical! Bought a Montalvo with pegs from Ebay (used $500)and loved it, over time wanted more and bought my current Ethan Deutsch ($1600 ebay used) my first luthier guitar, then wanted an opposite sound and bought a beat up ($600 ebay used) (sorry can't think of the luthier's name) that had many cracks. Took it to my local luthier and they wanted $600 to repair, so I did it myself via youtube.
My thoughts are with hindsight: Esteve (meh) Montalvo, much better but not as good as a luthier made, although good for a first guitar. Love the Deutsch, and the other luthier made though not as much. If guitars are scarce and you are willing to take a chance, I would buy on Ebay or Craigslist with the idea that buying used you hopefully can resell without too much of a loss. Do your research on the luthiers and you may get lucky, and any guitar will be better than what you have now. It's a risk, and reselling a guitar can be iffy. When you bid, just figure the most you would want to pay for the guitar, place your bid and walk away. If it gets outbid, there are other guitars out there! Good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2017 15:40:21

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Figured I'd give an update: I decided to drive up to Staten Island and pick up the used Yamaha flamenco for 285. I forgot that I had gotten my Ibanez nylon string with standard string spacing (by that I mean the strings are quite a bit closer together than flamencos/classicals, closer to regular non-nylon guitars), but I found that some of the techniques I was having trouble getting just-right felt more natural on the Yamaha with standard flamenco spacing. All-in-all, I'm digging this guitar, it's got that punchy, thin (I don't mean that in a bad way) flamenco sound which is great.

I had actually contacted a guy on Craigslist who was selling an Ignacio Razo F-1E for 675, which, from doing some online research, seemed like a great deal for a legit flamenco student guitar from a known Spanish luthier. We went back and forth for a while and I thought the deal was sealed, I just asked him to send me a quick video/sound clip of him playing it so I knew it was what I was looking for (I didn't want to drive all the way out to him to blow 700 on a dud guitar). He kept saying he was gonna send it but kept putting it off (seemed kind of suspicious) since Saturday. Come this morning, I said "screw it", decided to get the Yamaha and spend some of the extra money on learning materials. He still hasn't sent me any kind of follow up text, not sure what his deal was...

Anyways, thanks for all the advice, everybody! I still plan on getting a legit Spanish-made guitar in the future, after I increase my skills and bank account a bit, but for now I'm happy with that I have.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 2:15:49

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Congrats!
Yeah that ibanez is like a electric nylon hybrid. I hated it when I played it. The Yamaha really is a good facsimile of a real flamenco. When you get a nice one it'll feel basically the same but sound WAY nicer and be WAY more responsive. I recommend Mr. Faulks guitars but I'm a bit biased

. In the mean time post some vids and get some feedback!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 3:00:06

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to Leñador)

Thanks! I actually really like the Ibanez for playing some standard nylon stuff (I adjusted the action when I got it so it has a real loose/playful feel to it) but I felt it was time to get a guitar made for flamenco, even it is just a lateral move in terms of guitar grade, since it's really all I focus on playing these days. I just need to adjust the action on the Yamaha a bit, it feels a touch higher than I'd like.

I was planning on recording some videos to post but I found out the video recording program I downloaded was interfering with Cubase, so I had to ditch it. Might be best to just do it from my phone, but it feels painful to use a cellphone mic when I have all this recording gear haha

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 3:15:04

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

By the way, any links to this Mr. Faulks that you speak of?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 3:17:40

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

congratulations on your new guitar! I managed to cut down the string height on my classical guitar to a little under 3mm.
If you like you can follow my thread on a new guitar I ordered from Merlin Grote, maybe you'll like what you see. Other than that, there are lots of very established luthiers and guitarmakers here in the foro.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 7:27:22

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

That's me hiding behind the creepy screen name. I try to stay out of these kinds of talks unless they involve a guitar repair question.

I'll say personally I like the Yamaha entry level Flamenco guitar. They are set up well and feel more or less like a flamenco guitar.

The Navarro and montalvo guitars are both good. Recent montalvo guitars are built by a family trained by Abel Garcia, they are good makers. A friend of mine in the US deals Navarro, and another old friend deals Motalvo. Both places you can find a very nice guitar. Montalvo's can get you quite far, but best to play a whole room full. Same with Navarro, but I think if you mail order either you get some decision time.

There is other stuff out there if you luck into it. Aria plywood back and sides with solid cedar tops are really excellent, from the 1980,s . Japanese solid top guitars I'm general are worth a string to see how they sound. See them at estate and garage sales. Take the saddle down and stick on a tap plate.

Used solid top Japanese guitars from the 70 to 90 s are the Flamenco cheap convert sleepers today. Look for them and you can get surprise good guitar.

But I think we what you hear about Yamaha being the best choice untill you get to the 2.5 k zone is correct. Perhaps the Navarro could be the exception, but I personally would outgrow the Navarro fast if I had had one when I began. I feel they are a bit soft.

A trip to Spain, go to a factory on recommendation of morante and play as many as they have, often a super factory can be had. Of course relative to price.

If you feel really crazy get a PayPal credit card and buy a guitar from a foro Luthier, we all love to spoil regular foro members.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 8:14:35

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

But I think we what you hear about Yamaha being the best choice untill you get to the 2.5 k zone is correct.

but why is it that the quality isn't so different in this particular price category (200-2,5k)? is it because it's difficult to achieve a good quality instrument with factory production as opposed to a handmade instrument?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 9:03:32

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

Best budget solution I've found so far:

- Go to a store where they have a few Stagg C542
- Pick one that is playable and has only minor defects that you can correct (fret ends, levelling, nut slots height)
- Put a bone saddle if you want even better tone
- Get a cheap tablet screen protector

This model is by far the best sounding cheap guitar for flamenco. It has zero "classicalness" to it. The neck is amazing!

Costs about 60€

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 11:20:10

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to jalalkun)

quote:

but why is it that the quality isn't so different in this particular price category (200-2,5k)? is it because it's difficult to achieve a good quality instrument with factory production as opposed to a handmade instrument?

Often times you outgrow the gutars in that price rage in a few years and realize what is more interesting to you. So what is $400.00 - 600.00 Yamaha is usually not significantly different than most guitars under 2000.00 so why bother making a minor lateral move when you could save that money and buy a high quality guitar that will hold its value better? And over all be a much better instrument that is more satisfying to play.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 11:57:03

jalalkun

Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to estebanana)

that is actually why I ordered a guitar at a local luthier - because I felt like I outgrew the guitar I had for 4 1/2 years now. I need something else, something far superior. never knew how to put it in words and I wouldn'tve been so bold to say that I 'outgrew' my guitar. still need a lot of work on my skill...
but my question was: why does it actually NOT make a difference what guitar to choose in the price range up to 2000? I wondered if it is because of mass/factory production vs. handbuilding.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 17:46:07

soclydeza85

Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 27 2017

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

If you feel really crazy get a PayPal credit card and buy a guitar from a foro Luthier, we all love to spoil regular foro members.

Oh man, that would be awesome! I looked over your website, those are some beautiful guitars and they sound amazing too, would be worth the investment in the future for sure. You are one hell of a flamenco player too, how long have you been playing if you don't mind me asking?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 19:56:30

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Buying first flamenco guitar (~$... (in reply to soclydeza85)

quote:

Oh man, that would be awesome! I looked over your website, those are some beautiful guitars and they sound amazing too, would be worth the investment in the future for sure. You are one hell of a flamenco player too, how long have you been playing if you don't mind me asking?

I started taking flamenco lessons in 1997. Of all the makers who play I'm not the best, probably the least best. If I had not begun making guitars in 1998 I probably would have become a formidable player, but you pick your battles in life and I picked making over playing.

Jorge, Andy, Ethan are makers too, all play much better than I do.

The secret to getting a leg up in playing well is to get in early with a good teacher. And play a metronome regularly. You have to focus on compas everyday and let it enter your nervous system like breathing. And as a guitar maker, I like to say, don't try to force a sound out of a guitar, be natural and not pushy. Guitars really release energy, you find out how by having a sensitive but firm dialog with the instrument. Listen to it.

Even bad or not so stellar student guitars will release energy great guitarists can draw out sound from not great guitars because they have skill not brute force. It's hard to explain, but something to be interested in. So even if you don't have a great guitar yet you can aim at great playing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2017 23:20:10