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Anyone else hear of this? I remember reading about it a long time ago but can't find it, that some flamenco guitarist would cover their right hand or both hands with cloth so no one would know how they play and might actually "learn" flamenco. Don't know how they did it. Wouldnt surprise me or anyone who knows how incredibly greedy and jealous flamencos/flamenco guitarists can get.
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
quote:
Wouldnt surprise me or anyone who knows how incredibly greedy and jealous flamencos/flamenco guitarists can get.
really? Not in my experience. Most guitarists only too ready to show/share things.
quote:
Anyone else hear of this? I remember reading about it a long time ago but can't find it, that some flamenco guitarist would cover their right hand or both hands with cloth so no one would know how they play and might actually "learn" flamenco.
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
quote:
ORIGINAL: davidheis_24
Anyone else hear of this? I remember reading about it a long time ago but can't find it, that some flamenco guitarist would cover their right hand or both hands with cloth so no one would know how they play and might actually "learn" flamenco. Don't know how they did it. Wouldnt surprise me or anyone who knows how incredibly greedy and jealous flamencos/flamenco guitarists can get.
The only reason I would suspect they might hide both hands, if they could actually do this while playing, (which I dought), is because, of their very ugly fingernails on right hand, after using glue on nails or whatever and have bad cases of nail fungus, on left hand huge rounded calicos, after biting the skin.
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Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
No real need for hiding the hands with a cloth. Many years ago I visited a tablao in Stuttgart, Germany, with members of a guitar-class. One of the students thought he could compete with the tocaor, so he approached him and asked if he might join him on stage. The guy was very friendly and said, "sure, no problem". Then, when the playing started, he went in to a fantastic pulgar sequence por bulerias, culminating in an unusual chord sequence. While playing he turned away from the would-be-virtuoso just enough, so he couldn't see the fingering. After about 2 compases he gave up...
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
A friend of mine, who for the record is a so so flamenco player, said he was in a Madrid Dance studio, invited to sit in and play for the class. The main guitarist there was a well known figure in the flamenco guitar world (not gonna say his name but he was gitano) and my friend had to sort of learn some of the falsetas and things in order to keep up with the class choreography. He said the lead guitarist tried to turn away so he had to pick things up by ear, but at the end of class when they were leaving he said this guy tried to deliberately slam the door on my friends hand!
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Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
I have no idea about flamenco guitarist, but it is quite well known that Eddie Van Halen would turn around and show his back to the public when playing a tapping section in his early days as he didn't want people to see how he did it.
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
Noted jazz guitar legend Emmet Ray ( without peer and second only to Django ) Was heard quoted ' I Don't record - why should I? - everyone will just steal my licks - wanna go to the dump and shoot some rats ? '
Maybe a huge oversight on his behalf - but that's why there's no listed discography or kids playing his licks Only left with the legend
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
Imagine a world with no internet, no video recorders, very little in the way of printed flamenco guitar material of any substance – a world where being an outstanding flamenco guitarist could be a way of lifting your family out of poverty. Spain in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Yes, a lot of them were secretive. You could pay for tuition but it was rare to get anything significant. If you watched too closely, guitarists sometimes turned away.
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to avimuno)
Absolutely! I saw Van Halen twice back in the early 80's and EVH definitely turned away when playing some of his signature licks. I was a hard rock/metal guitarist wanna be back in those days and thought I could perhaps learn a few things watching the master. Nope, didn't happen even thought I was only about 10 rows back from the stage. Of course this was way back before the internet opened up a who new world to learn things by. You had to work out licks, progressions and full songs by listening to the records and working with other musicians. Much easier today.
I'm not sure if its true just for guitarists but for some reason, we generally can be very competitive. I can't say I haven't been directly rebuffed by any specific guitarist but there is a tendency not to share too much knowledge.
I guess I understand, however I'm a sailor and I volunteer my time to train newbies on basic keel-boat sailing and safety. I don't expect anything other than to pay it forward for someone interested. I'm excited to share my knowledge of sailing hoping that a new person will also become a sailor.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to AlVãl)
quote:
ORIGINAL: AlVãl
Noted jazz guitar legend Emmet Ray ( without peer and second only to Django ) Was heard quoted ' I Don't record - why should I? - everyone will just steal my licks - wanna go to the dump and shoot some rats ? '
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to edguerin)
quote:
One of the students thought he could compete with the tocaor, so he approached him and asked if he might join him on stage. The guy was very friendly and said, "sure, no problem". Then, when the playing started, he went in to a fantastic pulgar sequence por bulerias, culminating in an unusual chord sequence. While playing he turned away from the would-be-virtuoso just enough, so he couldn't see the fingering. After about 2 compases he gave up...
I would guess the key here is "One of the students thought he could compete with the tocaor" - it all depends on attitude. I would say that student who thought he was ready to "compete with the tocaor" onstage got his come-uppance!
I've sat in on classes in the past and just sat to the left of a right handed (pro) guitarist and just got what I can by ear, tried to take in what I can of the class, without worrying too much about specifics or nailing the exact chords, and just playing tapeado (compás on muted strings) while the guitarist plays a falseta, or any other parts where I'm not sure (sometimes quite a lot of it!) ie. try to support what's going on without trying to take anything.... and at the end the guitarist turns round and shows me his falseta.
Also asking the guitarist for a lesson, or some lessons, ie. offering to pay something, and they will likely be more generous when you sit in on the class.
I understand they have a living to make, and don't want to just give what they have spent a lifetime learning and that they depend on away to guys who turn up randomly and expect a free lesson!
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
I understand they have a living to make, and don't want to just give what they have spent a lifetime learning and that they depend on away to guys who turn up randomly and expect a free lesson!
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to AlVãl)
AlVãl,
Not sure if you were being sarcastic in your post, but Emmet Ray never actually existed. He is the subject of a Woody Allen mock documentary movie Sweet and Lowdown. So I guess no one ever saw or will ever see his playing or hear his music.
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to kenjo138)
Guess I'll have to make do with the covers of his work by Howard Alden - next best thing I suppose And I thought Dick Hyman was a made up name - the irony of it all.
Damn But thanks for the reality check 😜
( the movie really does highlight how ridiculous and full of self importance guitarists can be when the reality is they are often just insecure - fact and fiction - just seemed relevant to the post ) So it begs the question Who now is the second best guitarist in the world ?
Posts: 15413
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to sig)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sig
Absolutely! I saw Van Halen twice back in the early 80's and EVH definitely turned away when playing some of his signature licks. I was a hard rock/metal guitarist wanna be back in those days and thought I could perhaps learn a few things watching the master. Nope, didn't happen even thought I was only about 10 rows back from the stage. Of course this was way back before the internet opened up a who new world to learn things by. You had to work out licks, progressions and full songs by listening to the records and working with other musicians. Much easier today.
I'm not sure if its true just for guitarists but for some reason, we generally can be very competitive. I can't say I haven't been directly rebuffed by any specific guitarist but there is a tendency not to share too much knowledge.
I guess I understand, however I'm a sailor and I volunteer my time to train newbies on basic keel-boat sailing and safety. I don't expect anything other than to pay it forward for someone interested. I'm excited to share my knowledge of sailing hoping that a new person will also become a sailor.
About Van Halen, I am sure that was something his brother and other band mates told him to do. Everybody in that band has historically rode on the guy's coat tails since the start to the present. I learned how to play guitar and all Ed's tricks from watching Live without a net which is beautifully filmed, all secrets revealed, when I was a kid. He was never hiding anything IMO, but he did have to jump around on stage and put on a show. I remember practicing to change those chords in 5150 while jumping off the couch!
RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to AlVãl)
quote:
Who now is the second best guitarist in the world ?
Nigel Tufnel?
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RE: Guitarists Used To Hide Their Ha... (in reply to davidheis_24)
Don't know if they went that far but as far as i know back in the old days flamenco guitarists were indeed quite secretive about their techniques in the same way magicians don't share their secrets at precent day. The reason was that having those skills offered you the possibility to make some money as a performer and the more people would be able to perform at decent level the less chance you had to earn yourself a meal. It is said that Sabicas was one of few willing to share his material with whoever was interested but he had the luxury position that his playing was so advanced no one would be able to match it anyway :-).
Pepe Habichuela gave a masterclass at Rotterdam Conservatory/Codarts last month and told us that "back in the old days" it was very difficult to make a living as a flamenco guitarist and that even the biggest names struggled to have enough gigs/income to buy themselves a daily meal ("we were hungry") He told us there used to be a place/pup in Madrid once (if i remember well it was Madrid) were all the players, including the big shots, would gather hoping to make some money. That place offered a dozen of private rooms were rich people could enliven their parties with flamenco. According to Pepe the artists precent had their own system of deciding "who's next" in the same way taxi drivers stand in line at percent day. He also told us that as a youngster he once had a gig with Camaron, Pepe earned about 100 pts, Camaron 3000 pts. That day Pepe was lucky.
At precent day we are very lucky, 1 mouse clic and you have tons of flamenco material to your disposal. When i started to study flamenco in the midd 80-ties all i had image wise was about 60 minutes of video material of Paco de Lucia, about 30 minutes of Paco Peña and a video of the 16 year old Vicente playing some of his childhood pieces. Still this is way more then was available in the 50ties and 60ties as explained so well by RobJe. When my father studied classical guitar in the 50ties classical guitarists were hard to find in the Netherlands (10 or less). At the time there were no audio recordings/partitures available yet of the Bach suites. To find pearls like that you had to struggle your way through tons of partitures in the library of a specialized museum were 1 day you might be lucky enough to find yourself 1 of the Bach suites for the lute. And it might took you yet another year or more to discover a second one existed. Then out of nowhere Segovia might record yet another one and with a little luck you had just enough money to buy yourself that record. Times change.
Paco Peña once showed us the basic compass of Fandangos in small manageable steps, revealing us in 20 minutes what took himself many years to unravel as a youngster. No wonder he expected us to become better players as himself with such a marvelous start (obviously none of us did match that expectation).
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