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granjuanillo

 

Posts: 28
Joined: Nov. 3 2009
 

cante for dancers 

About a year ago I wrote two pieces explaining the structure of cantin~as, solea, bulerias, and solea por bulerias for dancers. These may also be of interest to guitarists:

http://idiom.ucsd.edu/~moore/cantinas.pdf
http://idiom.ucsd.edu/~moore/solbul.pdf

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2016 22:17:27
 
Leñador

Posts: 5213
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: cante for dancers (in reply to granjuanillo

Cool! Skimmed through, I'll read it thoroughly at some point. Good dancers have been some of my best guitar teachers.

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2016 0:50:33
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1750
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: cante for dancers (in reply to granjuanillo

OLEEE!!! This is really helpful - many thanks!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2016 3:24:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10857
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante for dancers (in reply to granjuanillo

Nice work. There is one little thing regarding music theory that is a pet peeve of mine. When using roman numerals to describe chords based on a key, the point is to differentiate a progression (I-> IV or I->vi or I->ii etc) from it's resolution (V->I). So when things move away from the key center, normally "V of ..." is used. For example in Key of C major, the progression C-C7-F-D7-G-G7-C, is numerated I-V7/IV-IV-V7/V-V-V7-I. In other words, you don't use I7 or II7, because those chords are altered from their normal state of being in the chord scale, for the sake of tonicizing some other chord or key center. Another way to see it is those chords are borrowed from a different key, and so their roman numeral function needs to be borrowed as well.

Carrying this idea into flamenco means a couple of things. First of all, Flamenco has a very different discipline than classical music or normal "western tonal music". So Roman numerizing might not be the best idea from the get go....but....if one wants to try it, you will notice the Cambio is a perfect spot to use the "V of ..." numeration. This will occur in other ways depending on specifics (for example most of the cantes de La mina make use of several secondary dominant functions). Pretending a flamenco form such as por Arriba is really C major or A minor can work too, but I think most will agree that is not correct. (Cambio would simply be V-I, so why call it a cambio?). Even still, the E chord does not exist in C major, and would have to be described as V/vi, certainly NOT as "III".

The II7-I flamenco resolution, in my mind, could translate as a new variant of the classical period Aug6 practice, though left to hang on the V as the final resolution is odd. In jazz discipline this is all perfectly normalized by the "tritone sub" practice of substituting the V-I resolution with bII-I. Some other odd practices that look weird on paper are things like the "reverse cambio", M. Morao and other jerezanos copied from R. Montoya's era, only performed "por medio" is a good one (the cambio cante melody is harmonized F-C7, as a sort of soft or counter resolution perhaps to keep the phrygian tonal identity?). At the end of the day, flamenco has it's own discipline and vocabulary that needs to be learned above anything else.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 2:01:35
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1750
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: cante for dancers (in reply to Ricardo

Nice! ! Thanks Ricardo. I can follow most of what you're saying, but the "/" notation has me flummoxed - specifically, anything that appears on the right hand side of each /.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 8:27:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10857
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cante for dancers (in reply to Dudnote

V/ii means "V of ii" or verbally, THE FIVE OF TWO.....which means the dominant chord if the ii (two) chord were to be the tonic.

An example in key of C major, the V7/ii, means the Dominant 7th of D minor, or A7 (AC#EG)

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 17:07:22
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1750
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: cante for dancers (in reply to Ricardo

Ah yes. It's very clear now.

Muchas gracias !!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2016 18:01:14
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