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JonathanMtz

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 26 2015
 

Where to starting learning Jazz? 

Hello! This year is my 4th one playing flamenco. I'm loving the journey so far, I'm just very interested in learning Vicente Amigo's style of composing. I find all the chords amazing, I just don't know where or how to start learning step by step.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

Thank you for your time!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 5:46:12
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

your post doesn't match the title of your post ...
you want to lean as jazz ... ? ..not here ..
.
.
you want to learn Vicente Amigo stuff ? you can here ...
,
,
,
,

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 8:14:45
 
Piwin

Posts: 2858
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

Do you have any knowledge in music theory?
If not, understanding chord structures, functions, etc. might help some. Learning jazz per se won't help you much if what you want is to know those modern flamenco chords IMO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 9:15:32
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1799
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

This old thread might help you get started in the smooth direction
http://www.foroflamenco.com/printable.asp?m=17268&mpage=1
Ricado also has done some very detailled tutorials on PDL buleria falsetas whrre he explains where the Bossa Nova influence turns up, check his youtube channel.

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tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 11:46:46
 
JonathanMtz

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 26 2015
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to Piwin

Hello, thank you for replying. Yes I do, I know all diatonic scales and chords. I understand how the chords and the scales are built, my problem is that I don't fully understand where the modern flamenco starts coming in, I'm really intrigued how Vicente Amigo for example comes up with all these chords that express a lot more than any regular chord does. A good example is Cancion De Laura.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 12:48:40
 
JonathanMtz

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 26 2015
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to Dudnote

Yes, that is very closely related to my question. Do you have any books/references as to where I can learn all those embellishments for the traditional Am-G-F-E progression?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 12:55:12
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

Jazz is the wrong word entirely.
Study these modern players, learn the music and analyze what they are doing and why, that's the ONLY way. But if you don't have a strong flamenco base the analyzing is going to be very difficult.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:12:41
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1799
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

quote:

books

I tend to study old school stuff more so am no expert on modern toque. But, I suggest trying videos that make close ups of his hands. Try to understand what he's doing in very specific examples and if you get stuck post a question here. Working by ear could turn out to be much more practical than just following tabs. But there will be a bunch of tabs of his stuff, so you could try those if you have the technique & compas to go for that level of playing.

Knowing all of the drop 2 inversions of all the different 7 chords is going to help get started too.

Also, checkout last years Solea challenge for a very nice modern sounding solea falsetta from our own John Walsh. John kindly provided a tab for the challenge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:12:50
 
jamh2000

 

Posts: 41
Joined: Jan. 13 2012
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

I suppose it's worth bearing in mind that the modern flamenco composers, by and large, didn't come up with their chord progressions by sitting down with a jazz chord theory book. Rather, they picked up interesting chords from other players, adjusted them slightly, and came up with their own based on their wider listening. Nothing beats learning tunes by Vicente Amigo and Gerardo Nunez etc, perhaps using tabs from Alain Faucher, as that will get some of those chords int your vocabulary. It might help to study jazz harmony a bit- lots of good websites out there about chord substitutions, use of extensions etc. I also reckon it would be good to learn a bit of latin jazz- think 'Black Orpheus', 'Blue Bossa' and go from there... those tunes will use interesting variants on chords which fit into a flamenco flavour quite easily, and show you how you can incorporate certain jazz turnarounds or substitutions into latin music.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:27:32
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

If you wan't to understand Vicente Amigos or other modern players style it is very important to study the roots of flamenco. Amigo is a great composer but if you wan't to understand his style study flamenco not jazz. Learn to accompany singers and dancers and learn the traditional stuff for each palo first then you can go on with some "modern" things or compose your own falsetas. Vicente Amigos compositions aren't very crazy or anything if you understand the roots of flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:32:34
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1799
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to athrane77

quote:

ORIGINAL: athrane77

If you wan't to understand Vicente Amigos or other modern players style it is very important to study the roots of flamenco. Amigo is a great composer but if you wan't to understand his style study flamenco not jazz. Learn to accompany singers and dancers and learn the traditional stuff for each palo first then you can go on with some "modern" things or compose your own falsetas. Vicente Amigos compositions aren't very crazy or anything if you understand the roots of flamenco.

Ole!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:38:53
 
Piwin

Posts: 2858
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

Well. If you've got that much theory down, a lot of it now is just playing around with the fingering IMO. Most of the time, there's nothing really unusual in the chord progressions, pretty traditional actually.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:39:45
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3047
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

quote:

I'm really intrigued how Vicente Amigo for example comes up with all these chords that express a lot more than any regular chord does. A good example is Cancion De Laura


That one is pretty standard. Maybe jazz is really what you're looking for.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:40:38
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1799
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to athrane77

Have you listenned to this young dude? Now that's a whole lot closer to jazz to my ears than Amigo. He's pretty well versed in music theory from what I've heard...
http://www.rtve.es/m/alacarta/audios/nuestro-flamenco/nuestro-flamenco-asi-ve-amos-lora-04-08-16/3682358/?media=tve

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:43:09
 
JonathanMtz

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 26 2015
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to jamh2000

Thank you very useful stuff, I'm very interested in learning all that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 15:32:53
 
JonathanMtz

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 26 2015
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to athrane77

Thank you for the advice. To be honest, I've learned everything I know just with YouTube and some Books here and there. I guess I have to find some flamenco dancers and groups to play with. Do you think it's possible to learn the roots without a teacher? I'm just curious
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 15:40:34
 
JonathanMtz

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 26 2015
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to Piwin

Yeah it's just that it's all over the place. I'll see if I can buy some beginner stuff to learn from
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 15:42:55
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 544
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

A four note chord i.e. maj/min 7th and 9th chords are just that, four note chords. They shouldn't be mistaken for Jazz just because of a chord voicing or sound. Jazz is a different beast. If you want more complex chords focus on those as well as your dominant and various diminished voicings and inversions and you'll find all kinds of interesting ones. If you really want to go nuts, go study Alan Holdsworth voicings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 15:45:02
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

quote:

I guess I have to find some flamenco dancers and groups to play with.

Eso
quote:

Do you think it's possible to learn the roots without a teacher? I'm just curious

No

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 16:11:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12194
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

quote:

A good example is Cancion De Laura.


There is a blurry far away video of this tune. I can give you the jist but I can't make out exact voicings for each chord.

Basically the ideas come from a mix of MINERA (G# Phrygian) and Alegrias (E major). In other words, the voicings are all familiar if you know some stuff for those two palos, nothing jazzy going on.

The main theme is C#m7 in 4th position, F#m7 in 2nd position, G#(b9) in 4th position, all barre chords and they repeat a lot. There is that theme between the verses where he moves the chords double time, it's C#m7-A7#11-G#7 back to C#m7...and he sometimes walks down the bass notes w his index finger going to second fret B, open A, Bb(A#m7b5) on 6th fret (while holding the C#m triad with his other fingers) finally the A7#11-G#7 as before.

The second part of the verse goes Fm7-B7 (2nd position) and Emaj7 in open position:
0
0
1
1
2
0
Then back to F#m-G#(b9)-C#m7.
Next Amaj7 open, Emaj7/G# (I think, cuz it's blurry), C#(b9) barre 4, F#m7, Fm9(pinky stretch on 4th string)-Badd9-Emaj7(4th position), F#m7-G#b9...and he does this C#-B-A-G# chord hit thing he borrowed from his buleria in Minera called Querido Metheny.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 16:11:58
 
Ghodaddyyo

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Aug. 2 2016
From: Huntington Beach, CA

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

You may be interested in delving into some Gypsy Jazz. Sort of how I came into flamenco. Check out any vids by Birelli Lagren, Dorado Schmitt, Jimmy Rosenberg, Stochello Rosenberg... I warn you though, it may get you hooked.

One of my faves:

Birelli Lagren - When Day Is Done

You can learn a ton a Djangobooks.com.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2016 20:36:37
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to Ghodaddyyo

quote:

You may be interested in delving into some Gypsy Jazz. Sort of how I came into flamenco. Check out any vids by Birelli Lagren, Dorado Schmitt, Jimmy Rosenberg, Stochello Rosenberg... I warn you though, it may get you hooked.

One of my faves:

Birelli Lagren - When Day Is Done

You can learn a ton a Djangobooks.com.

Birelli is one of my favourites. I wish he played in the trio instead of al di. Also love his live albums with jaco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2016 10:51:23
 
AlVãl

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 20 2016
 

RE: Where to starting learning Jazz? (in reply to JonathanMtz

Mick Goodrick's book
'The Advancing Guitarist'
Has all you'll ever need regarding Modern Harmony and a hell of a lot more
All you need to know is what a Cmajor scale looks like in notation and on the guitar - the rest will take care of itself
It's an approach and application book not a method
He was Pat Metheny's teacher - who seems the most influential jazz guitarist for modern flamenco
I can send you a few Metheny charts and help you through them
There is a Brazilian feel to a lot of his music - really beautiful tunes

Well crafted pop songs can be helpful

Learn some Brazilian tunes by
Baden Powell
Garoto
Dilimando Reis
Yamandu Costa

And some jazz standards but maybe practice them in compas or as rumbas
The Goodrick book would help that along


I found these resources helpful
Hope it helps .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2016 12:08:03
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