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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

Picado journey to >160bpm 

For those with picado skills, I'm wondering your thoughts:

Over the years, the progress in picado I've made seems to have to do with the efficiency of movement around finger placement. Yes of course speed and all the rest, but once upon a time I remember the whole thing being equally challenging: playing the notes evenly, and crossing the strings.
Now the notes aren't the problem - it's crossing the strings. Picado's that travel 5 and 6 strings I stumble on, whereas playing on one string - especially in position - isn't hard.

The feeling is that when playing on one string, everything is tightly centered around that string. But when crossing strings, it's like there's a huge jump. Almost like if a drummer was playing 16ths on a snare, and then suddenly jumps over to the tom.

Am I alone? Any suggestions for how to approach this?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2016 23:30:31
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

it is simple, just practice staccato but landing EXACTLY, i cannot stress this enough, EXACTLY where the nail meets the flesh. I can now play with the same control with almost no nail. Do the same thing when crossing strings. Play SUPER slow until you can nail it every time around 50bpm.

I took the same principles into arpeggios and tremolo. Planting the fingers so that you land exactly in between nail and finger. When you play for others and you start sweating, the flesh on the fingertips starts gripping the string too much.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2016 23:51:22
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Aretium

Thanks Aretium.
Though that's kinda my point:

that part I got. Or at least that's the quest: to do it perfectly every time.

but doing it on one string is say, 1 vector. Now repeating it across strings is a second. And in a passage, some string get plucked 2x, some 3, some 4.. that's another.
But I digress.

It's mainly the switching of strings, since it can affect wrist position, location of RH thumb, shoulder stuff (if one uses Paco's technique), etc etc

so are there specific things you (or anyone) worked on to address the second vector?

Just "going" slow doesn't cover it I think. Since when you're playing 4 notes per beat at 150 and up, you're not going slow! :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 1:01:46
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

Slow is the only way. If you can't do it slow, you can never do it fast. Practice string skipping. Same principles, if you can't nail it EVERY time when going slow, how are you going to do it fast?

Practicing bursts can help, so do 4 quarter notes, then 4 16th notes or just do 4 notes as fast as you can, but do this after you have gone slow for a bit to get the accuracy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 11:18:05
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

Remember that at 16th each finger is playing only 8th, which means that crossing strings will be at 8th.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 13:36:30
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1919
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran



This is what wannabe fast picado artists are aiming for
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 14:39:23
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Morante

his second finger doesnt work much ...dragging the strings ... and a tremolo that goes up and down ...and ......everything else...where exactly is the beat ?
and what palo(s) is it ? etc etc etc

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 15:08:59
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Morante

good try Morante but this guy is obviously much more flamenco than anyone , including all in Andalucia....
what more can i say ...


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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 15:12:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13409
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Thanks Aretium.
Though that's kinda my point:

that part I got. Or at least that's the quest: to do it perfectly every time.

but doing it on one string is say, 1 vector. Now repeating it across strings is a second. And in a passage, some string get plucked 2x, some 3, some 4.. that's another.
But I digress.

It's mainly the switching of strings, since it can affect wrist position, location of RH thumb, shoulder stuff (if one uses Paco's technique), etc etc

so are there specific things you (or anyone) worked on to address the second vector?

Just "going" slow doesn't cover it I think. Since when you're playing 4 notes per beat at 150 and up, you're not going slow! :)


It may have more to do with the specific passage you are hitting a roadblock with. For example, if it is just a simple scale up or down, one thing I like to do is experiment with left hand fingering variations. The goal being the Right hand to function like a mindless machine at high speed, coordinating with a clever left hand. I used to work on fast alternate picking things and translate similar principals to I-m picado (simply put, i= down pick, m=up pick). Take a 3 note per string scale pattern fairly high up on the neck (no open strings) and see how you manage it up and down. What happens is the right hand has to become ambidextrous with crossing, as 3 on each string when alternating means you deal with crossing with either finger. If you can achieve this at the speeds you want, then you know the right hand is in good shape and your hiccups are possibly do to coordination between left hand fingering and right hand mechanics.

If you find the same hiccups occur with 3 note per string patterns, then you need to get your right hand working. Start with crossing one string, then two, then 3 etc, until you hit that problem spot. Make the problem note somehow rhythmically superior, i.e. The downbeat of the phrase, and push your self to really nail the problem spot.

You can do this with any passage that gives you problem, simply make a loop of the phrase, or short piece of the phrase, such that the problem spot becomes your main focus musically.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 16:43:29
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

It may have more to do with the specific passage you are hitting a roadblock with. For example, if it is just a simple scale up or down, one thing I like to do is experiment with left hand fingering variations. The goal being the Right hand to function like a mindless machine at high speed, coordinating with a clever left hand. I used to work on fast alternate picking things and translate similar principals to I-m picado (simply put, i= down pick, m=up pick). Take a 3 note per string scale pattern fairly high up on the neck (no open strings) and see how you manage it up and down. What happens is the right hand has to become ambidextrous with crossing, as 3 on each string when alternating means you deal with crossing with either finger. If you can achieve this at the speeds you want, then you know the right hand is in good shape and your hiccups are possibly do to coordination between left hand fingering and right hand mechanics.

If you find the same hiccups occur with 3 note per string patterns, then you need to get your right hand working. Start with crossing one string, then two, then 3 etc, until you hit that problem spot. Make the problem note somehow rhythmically superior, i.e. The downbeat of the phrase, and push your self to really nail the problem spot.

You can do this with any passage that gives you problem, simply make a loop of the phrase, or short piece of the phrase, such that the problem spot becomes your main focus musically


In general, does the m finger always play the down beat. Should I practice I as the downbeat as much as m?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 17:31:02
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks guys

While Ricardo's response is the most detailed and the most practical in terms of problem-solving, I'm looking for a discussion regarding the middle and upper arm mechanics on string crossing.

I find most of the time we talk about picado technic in the same manner as if we were playing a one string instrument. Well, two strings technically, since you need a second string to come to rest upon when playing apoyando.

I think the physical mechanics involved when dealing with six strings are insufficiently addressed in general compared to all the attention given to alternating two fingers and plucking a given string. For example, speed bursts.

Wherher holding your hand flat like Paco or doing something else, we have many exercises and ways to explain how to make the movement more efficient with the fingers and plucking movement.
But I think that whether your wrist is flat and hand is like Paco, or wrist is bent and fingers are of a different position, the goal is generally the same: the finger lands on the string where the flesh and nail meet and we shoot for an efficient movement regardless of hand position. However, it is totally possible to raise the upper arm using shoulder and scapula muscles when traversing from high E string to low E string as in Paco, or keep the upper arm relatively in place and arch the wrist, which of course changes the hand position. Or like Chicuelo, whose is hand is flat like Paco but does not raise his arm the same way. Anyway, this aspect is what I am looking to discuss.

For myself, I have the additional consideration that my index finger is much shorter than my middle finger. So string switching feels very different depending on which finger plays the new string.

I realize I'm being super nitpicky, but acquiring virtuoso technique is a nitpicky affair, right ;)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 19:15:29
 
Piwin

Posts: 3404
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

I'm looking for a discussion regarding the middle and upper arm mechanics on string crossing


I think the reason you don't get that kind of discussion very often is that many people (including myself) consider that if you get the fingers right, the rest automatically falls into place. I think working it the other way around, focusing on the arm, is counterproductive, but that's just me. And it's fair to notice that people use their arms and shoulders differently, like the examples you mentioned. But I'm not sure how much that's going to help you in improving with string changes. Anyways, I'm not much help, am I?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 19:21:44
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 491
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

I'm looking for a discussion regarding the middle and upper arm mechanics on string crossing


I think the reason you don't get that kind of discussion very often is that many people (including myself) consider that if you get the fingers right, the rest automatically falls into place. I think working it the other way around, focusing on the arm, is counterproductive, but that's just me. And it's fair to notice that people use their arms and shoulders differently, like the examples you mentioned. But I'm not sure how much that's going to help you in improving with string changes. Anyways, I'm not much help, am I?


I agree with this, I think you are overthinking it.
Its fine to consider your overall position including fingers, wrist, arm and shoulders and watch how really good players do it. But in the end the sound comes from your fingertip and nail, so get them doing what they are supposed to do. If I play picado across strings without thinking or concentrating I will for sure double up i or m going across strings. So it helps me to think in brain as my fingers always alternating and watching them as I play SLOWLY helps.
Eventually I won't need to look or think. Focus on quality and not speed.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 19:49:59
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Piwin

quote:

if you get the fingers right, the rest automatically falls into place.


I hear what you guys are saying.. But I think it's foolish to think all we need to do is focus on fingertips and we'll be shredding in no time.
For one, the premise of Feldenkrais and Alexander technique is total body. Second, there are tons of players whose fingers a fine but are doing something else that is obviously a hinderance.

While focusing on upper arm seems counter productive, ignoring it completely seems absurd to me. Enough time has already been spent on Paco's techinque on this forum, a good deal of which observes his upper arm in relationship to his hands. And for him, they are obviously related, and completely consistent. So I'd say for anyone following his technique, this is what the technique involves.
And for anyone who says, 'fine; works for him. But not for everyone', that to me reinforces what I think is the necessary discussion of "technique" - that it incorporates everything. I mean, there's a whole wave of classical players using props under the guitar just to have 2 feet squarely planted on the floor. (And there we'd be discussing feet as they relate to operating one's hands!)

That's why I think all the mechanics of the body are just as important as the fingers.
And yet I hardly hear this discussed.

I dunno.. maybe there are 2 many variables person to person to make a discussion useful.
But, for example, has anyone taken lessons where a teacher has made highly specific adjustments to one's technique that include super small adjustments to posture?
That is supposedly what Feldenkrais/Alexander incorporates..

Julian Lage (jazz wiz kid) took Alexander as a teen for years. Obviously he felt it was worth it
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 21:05:38
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 491
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

My teacher is constantly watching my technique and making adjustments but mostly to my fingers and hands. He has mentioned my shoulder briefly. The key things as I understand it are reducing stress and tension because those things hinder good technique and speed. They also hinder finger independence which a requirement to play well. You can go study all that whole body stuff but I think the answer is within yourself.
There are some videos on youtube of Pepe Romero giving private lessons, I found those very helpful to watch.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 21:42:04
 
Mark2

Posts: 1706
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

Some good points. I've never taken alexander classes, but have read a bit about the technique. It does make sense. Lately, I've been trying to really focus on total posture and finding the most comfortable playing position before trying to execute a picado passage and find it does help. 160 bpm strong and clear though is very far away for me so I'll bow out of this thread........
quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

quote:

if you get the fingers right, the rest automatically falls into place.


I hear what you guys are saying.. But I think it's foolish to think all we need to do is focus on fingertips and we'll be shredding in no time.
For one, the premise of Feldenkrais and Alexander technique is total body. Second, there are tons of players whose fingers a fine but are doing something else that is obviously a hinderance.

While focusing on upper arm seems counter productive, ignoring it completely seems absurd to me. Enough time has already been spent on Paco's techinque on this forum, a good deal of which observes his upper arm in relationship to his hands. And for him, they are obviously related, and completely consistent. So I'd say for anyone following his technique, this is what the technique involves.
And for anyone who says, 'fine; works for him. But not for everyone', that to me reinforces what I think is the necessary discussion of "technique" - that it incorporates everything. I mean, there's a whole wave of classical players using props under the guitar just to have 2 feet squarely planted on the floor. (And there we'd be discussing feet as they relate to operating one's hands!)

That's why I think all the mechanics of the body are just as important as the fingers.
And yet I hardly hear this discussed.

I dunno.. maybe there are 2 many variables person to person to make a discussion useful.
But, for example, has anyone taken lessons where a teacher has made highly specific adjustments to one's technique that include super small adjustments to posture?
That is supposedly what Feldenkrais/Alexander incorporates..

Julian Lage (jazz wiz kid) took Alexander as a teen for years. Obviously he felt it was worth it
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 22:24:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 3404
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

It's not necessarily inconsistent with a whole body approach. What I meant is that your fingers are always the starting point. I've worked a few times with a physical therapist who specializes in musical practice. Her office is filled with various instruments and she works through all your posture issues, within the limits that you give her. So if I tell her, my fingers need to strike the strings here, at this angle, she'll work out what I can do to improve posture elsewhere while maintaing the same angle with my fingers and whatnot. And indeed, some things can be solved by changing posture, like lessening shoulder discomfort by better spine alignment, etc. But if you adopt a posture that is optimal for your shoulders but makes it impossible for you to attack the strings at the right angle, then you have a problem. And if you force your hand to learn how to get the sound you want in this new position, then it's sort of defeating the whole purpose of changing posture, i.e. being as relaxed as possible. Anyways, I'm not saying that you should ignore the rest of your body, only that I think your hand (fingers) should be the starting point.

edit: was it PdL who said he focused on relaxing his tongue when he felt he was tensing up? Can't remember.

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 23:05:45
 
St33

 

Posts: 24
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

Very slow
Very staccato
Very power
Very relax
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2016 23:10:50
 
kitarist

Posts: 1491
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Thanks guys

While Ricardo's response is the most detailed and the most practical in terms of problem-solving, I'm looking for a discussion regarding the middle and upper arm mechanics on string crossing.


I can tell you my experience - I didn't make much progress until I started focusing on being very consistent, at the fingertip, with angle to string and finger placement. This to me meant that I had to move my whole arm up when crossing strings so that I keep the exact same placement and angle at the fingertip, the point where I produce the sound. Note this affects picado not just when string-crossing, but single string too - by allowing me have the exact same setup regardless of which string I am practicing picado on. To me that seemed logical, or at least seemed like a more efficient path to getting better, than varying the angle and position and keeping my arm in place when crossing. In my case, this worked very well; others have made great progress while keeping arm steady and varying angle/position to string (or else varying lower arm somehow to keep similar angle).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2016 3:01:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13409
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

While Ricardo's response is the most detailed and the most practical in terms of problem-solving, I'm looking for a discussion regarding the middle and upper arm mechanics on string crossing.


Middle and upper arm move according to the specific passage of music needed. PDL and others don't always do the same thing, but they very well maybe doing it consistently for a specific passage. With no concrete example I am not sure where you think a discussion about specific arm placement is going to go. Simply put, if you think the arm matters so much or is inhibiting your playing, most likely your fingers are not doing the right thing and need to be your focus, as discussed already.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2016 10:39:43
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo

Sorry ya'll: admittedly, I let the focus of my question wander a bit on this one.

What I'm trying to get at is the sense that I have that while one thing improved (finger placement/efficiency), the side effect is that the distance from one string to another seems larger than it did before, and whether this perception is something other's have felt. It's a good problem to have, because before, the fingers had a range of motion less precise, and the area a finger moved when plucking a string was roughly the same range of motion whether plucking on string, or switching strings. Now, with the range of motion tightened up for plucking one string, it makes the switching seems like the a jumping a big gap.

Whether or not the arms, shoulders, mind..etc etc are the tools to navigate this, .. it sounds like it varies. And sure, finger placement is key, but has anyone noticed this sensation? Is this a normal part of the process?
It's probably just me
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2016 16:53:43
 
Piwin

Posts: 3404
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

In my case I had a harder time with ascending scales. With descending scales the fingers kind of naturally "slide up" to the next string so I never had the impression that there was much of a gap. The way I approached it for ascending scales was basically by practicing finger planting, the same way you would with arpeggios. Not even playing staccato or anything, but just practicing getting the finger that is the first to switch strings in the most precise position on the string I can. It's very simple (and boring) but I do feel it's helped me a lot. With enough repetition that should correct whatever your problem you're having, whether your finger is going too far or not far enough.
That probably doesn't help because basically I'm going back to finger placement again but anyways, just saying what worked for me!

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2016 17:09:33
 
JasonM

Posts: 1827
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

Yes I do know what you mean about conservation of movement and feeling a gap switching strings. I experience this when I shift the movement away from the big knuckle joint to the middle knuckle too much.

I like an exercise where I play 3 notes per string of an open E major chord, up and down, and I count in 16th notes. A variation to Ricardo's 3 note per string scale, it just takes the left hand out of the picture so I focus on landing those acting changes.

EDIT: Also I use other chords such as full bars because I find an open note vs fretted changes dynamics a little. I let my fingers/ arm adjust while my focus is on sound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2016 17:33:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13409
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Sorry ya'll: admittedly, I let the focus of my question wander a bit on this one.

What I'm trying to get at is the sense that I have that while one thing improved (finger placement/efficiency), the side effect is that the distance from one string to another seems larger than it did before, and whether this perception is something other's have felt. It's a good problem to have, because before, the fingers had a range of motion less precise, and the area a finger moved when plucking a string was roughly the same range of motion whether plucking on string, or switching strings. Now, with the range of motion tightened up for plucking one string, it makes the switching seems like the a jumping a big gap.

Whether or not the arms, shoulders, mind..etc etc are the tools to navigate this, .. it sounds like it varies. And sure, finger placement is key, but has anyone noticed this sensation? Is this a normal part of the process?
It's probably just me


Work on these two licks building speed to your 160 bpm and beyond:

-7-----------------7--------------------7---etc-
------10-8-7-------------10-8-7----------------
---------------9--------------------9-------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------

Use m-m-i-m-i- repeat, the B note is an 8th note and the rest are 16ths. Next try this:

-7-----------------------------7---------------------------7--etc
-----10-8-7-------7-8-10--------10-8-7-------7-8-10---------
---------------9-----------------------------9--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Straight 16th, but learn it both starting with m, and starting with i. There will always be the awkward cross, but the arm doesn't move. But if you move these patterns to other string sets you will have to reposition your arm a bit to orient your fingers comfortably. Yes you have to jump between strings with these exercises but it is just part of the deal you need to get used to at high speed.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2016 18:17:10
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

Work on these two licks building speed to your 160 bpm and beyond:

-7-----------------7--------------------7---etc-
------10-8-7-------------10-8-7----------------
---------------9--------------------9-------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------

Use m-m-i-m-i- repeat, the B note is an 8th note and the rest are 16ths. Next try this:

-7-----------------------------7---------------------------7--etc
-----10-8-7-------7-8-10--------10-8-7-------7-8-10---------
---------------9-----------------------------9--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Straight 16th, but learn it both starting with m, and starting with i. There will always be the awkward cross, but the arm doesn't move. But if you move these patterns to other string sets you will have to reposition your arm a bit to orient your fingers comfortably. Yes you have to jump between strings with these exercises but it is just part of the deal you need to get used to at high speed.

_____________________________


I use that as an exercise too, but I do it as bursts, with the the b string notes. Taken from Paco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2016 18:41:11
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3388
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Work on these two licks building speed to your 160 bpm and beyond:

-7-----------------7--------------------7---etc-
------10-8-7-------------10-8-7----------------
---------------9--------------------9-------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------

Use m-m-i-m-i- repeat, the B note is an 8th note and the rest are 16ths. Next try this:

-7-----------------------------7---------------------------7--etc
-----10-8-7-------7-8-10--------10-8-7-------7-8-10---------
---------------9-----------------------------9--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Straight 16th, but learn it both starting with m, and starting with i. There will always be the awkward cross, but the arm doesn't move. But if you move these patterns to other string sets you will have to reposition your arm a bit to orient your fingers comfortably. Yes you have to jump between strings with these exercises but it is just part of the deal you need to get used to at high speed.

quote:

I use that as an exercise too, but I do it as bursts, with the the b string notes. Taken from Paco.

quote:

the B note is an 8th note
just the first note? or all B notes? so does it go 8th, 16th,16th,16th,16th, 8th, 16th,16th,16th,16th, etc.? and how does that timing work in the second lick? is that one just the first note an 8th and then all the others 16ths?

where is it taken from Paco? if I could hear it it would probably make sense....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2016 17:50:54
 
Mark2

Posts: 1706
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

What is the idea behind dragging the m finger from the first note to the second one on the b string? Is it just so this particular lick can be played faster or is that something you do all the time in this situation?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2016 18:00:27
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

where is it taken from Paco? if I could hear it it would probably make sense....




Just do what ricardo said. lol
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2016 18:03:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13409
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Mark2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

What is the idea behind dragging the m finger from the first note to the second one on the b string? Is it just so this particular lick can be played faster or is that something you do all the time in this situation?


It's not a drag across really, the reason is so you can jump from third string with i to first string with m easily rather than opposite. The repeat of m occurs on the 8th note....you could imagine the timing being 6 notes where one note is missing. If you wanted to change the patter to include a missing note you need to use the i finger instead of repeating m.

I didn't want to post the original of PDL doing these because he does them at 208bpm, not 160bpm and it could be discouraging.

He does both in the famous entre dos aguas from the 70's at 1:44 and 4:31


Here you can actually see it good at 34:46


To be 100% clear the first video shows the SECOND phrase I tabbed at 1:44, and it's actually slower than other times he had done it but the right hand is clear on it. Straight 16ths repeating. The FIRST exercise I tabbed where you have an 8th note B note on first string and 4 16ths, repeating, is what I marked on the second video and that might be faster than 208 actually!

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2016 19:15:47
 
Mark2

Posts: 1706
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran

Thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2016 16:15:13
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