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Picado journey to >160bpm
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Ricardo
Posts: 14414
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turnermoran
Thanks Aretium.
Though that's kinda my point:
that part I got. Or at least that's the quest: to do it perfectly every time.
but doing it on one string is say, 1 vector. Now repeating it across strings is a second. And in a passage, some string get plucked 2x, some 3, some 4.. that's another.
But I digress.
It's mainly the switching of strings, since it can affect wrist position, location of RH thumb, shoulder stuff (if one uses Paco's technique), etc etc
so are there specific things you (or anyone) worked on to address the second vector?
Just "going" slow doesn't cover it I think. Since when you're playing 4 notes per beat at 150 and up, you're not going slow! :)
It may have more to do with the specific passage you are hitting a roadblock with. For example, if it is just a simple scale up or down, one thing I like to do is experiment with left hand fingering variations. The goal being the Right hand to function like a mindless machine at high speed, coordinating with a clever left hand. I used to work on fast alternate picking things and translate similar principals to I-m picado (simply put, i= down pick, m=up pick). Take a 3 note per string scale pattern fairly high up on the neck (no open strings) and see how you manage it up and down. What happens is the right hand has to become ambidextrous with crossing, as 3 on each string when alternating means you deal with crossing with either finger. If you can achieve this at the speeds you want, then you know the right hand is in good shape and your hiccups are possibly do to coordination between left hand fingering and right hand mechanics.
If you find the same hiccups occur with 3 note per string patterns, then you need to get your right hand working. Start with crossing one string, then two, then 3 etc, until you hit that problem spot. Make the problem note somehow rhythmically superior, i.e. The downbeat of the phrase, and push your self to really nail the problem spot.
You can do this with any passage that gives you problem, simply make a loop of the phrase, or short piece of the phrase, such that the problem spot becomes your main focus musically.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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Date Oct. 18 2016 16:43:29
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Aretium
Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
It may have more to do with the specific passage you are hitting a roadblock with. For example, if it is just a simple scale up or down, one thing I like to do is experiment with left hand fingering variations. The goal being the Right hand to function like a mindless machine at high speed, coordinating with a clever left hand. I used to work on fast alternate picking things and translate similar principals to I-m picado (simply put, i= down pick, m=up pick). Take a 3 note per string scale pattern fairly high up on the neck (no open strings) and see how you manage it up and down. What happens is the right hand has to become ambidextrous with crossing, as 3 on each string when alternating means you deal with crossing with either finger. If you can achieve this at the speeds you want, then you know the right hand is in good shape and your hiccups are possibly do to coordination between left hand fingering and right hand mechanics.
If you find the same hiccups occur with 3 note per string patterns, then you need to get your right hand working. Start with crossing one string, then two, then 3 etc, until you hit that problem spot. Make the problem note somehow rhythmically superior, i.e. The downbeat of the phrase, and push your self to really nail the problem spot.
You can do this with any passage that gives you problem, simply make a loop of the phrase, or short piece of the phrase, such that the problem spot becomes your main focus musically
In general, does the m finger always play the down beat. Should I practice I as the downbeat as much as m?
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Date Oct. 18 2016 17:31:02
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turnermoran
Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo)
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Thanks guys
While Ricardo's response is the most detailed and the most practical in terms of problem-solving, I'm looking for a discussion regarding the middle and upper arm mechanics on string crossing.
I find most of the time we talk about picado technic in the same manner as if we were playing a one string instrument. Well, two strings technically, since you need a second string to come to rest upon when playing apoyando.
I think the physical mechanics involved when dealing with six strings are insufficiently addressed in general compared to all the attention given to alternating two fingers and plucking a given string. For example, speed bursts.
Wherher holding your hand flat like Paco or doing something else, we have many exercises and ways to explain how to make the movement more efficient with the fingers and plucking movement.
But I think that whether your wrist is flat and hand is like Paco, or wrist is bent and fingers are of a different position, the goal is generally the same: the finger lands on the string where the flesh and nail meet and we shoot for an efficient movement regardless of hand position. However, it is totally possible to raise the upper arm using shoulder and scapula muscles when traversing from high E string to low E string as in Paco, or keep the upper arm relatively in place and arch the wrist, which of course changes the hand position. Or like Chicuelo, whose is hand is flat like Paco but does not raise his arm the same way. Anyway, this aspect is what I am looking to discuss.
For myself, I have the additional consideration that my index finger is much shorter than my middle finger. So string switching feels very different depending on which finger plays the new string.
I realize I'm being super nitpicky, but acquiring virtuoso technique is a nitpicky affair, right ;)
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Date Oct. 18 2016 19:15:29
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Cervantes
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
quote:
I'm looking for a discussion regarding the middle and upper arm mechanics on string crossing
I think the reason you don't get that kind of discussion very often is that many people (including myself) consider that if you get the fingers right, the rest automatically falls into place. I think working it the other way around, focusing on the arm, is counterproductive, but that's just me. And it's fair to notice that people use their arms and shoulders differently, like the examples you mentioned. But I'm not sure how much that's going to help you in improving with string changes. Anyways, I'm not much help, am I? 
I agree with this, I think you are overthinking it.
Its fine to consider your overall position including fingers, wrist, arm and shoulders and watch how really good players do it. But in the end the sound comes from your fingertip and nail, so get them doing what they are supposed to do. If I play picado across strings without thinking or concentrating I will for sure double up i or m going across strings. So it helps me to think in brain as my fingers always alternating and watching them as I play SLOWLY helps.
Eventually I won't need to look or think. Focus on quality and not speed.
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very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
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Date Oct. 18 2016 19:49:59
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turnermoran
Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
if you get the fingers right, the rest automatically falls into place.
I hear what you guys are saying.. But I think it's foolish to think all we need to do is focus on fingertips and we'll be shredding in no time.
For one, the premise of Feldenkrais and Alexander technique is total body. Second, there are tons of players whose fingers a fine but are doing something else that is obviously a hinderance.
While focusing on upper arm seems counter productive, ignoring it completely seems absurd to me. Enough time has already been spent on Paco's techinque on this forum, a good deal of which observes his upper arm in relationship to his hands. And for him, they are obviously related, and completely consistent. So I'd say for anyone following his technique, this is what the technique involves.
And for anyone who says, 'fine; works for him. But not for everyone', that to me reinforces what I think is the necessary discussion of "technique" - that it incorporates everything. I mean, there's a whole wave of classical players using props under the guitar just to have 2 feet squarely planted on the floor. (And there we'd be discussing feet as they relate to operating one's hands!)
That's why I think all the mechanics of the body are just as important as the fingers.
And yet I hardly hear this discussed.
I dunno.. maybe there are 2 many variables person to person to make a discussion useful.
But, for example, has anyone taken lessons where a teacher has made highly specific adjustments to one's technique that include super small adjustments to posture?
That is supposedly what Feldenkrais/Alexander incorporates..
Julian Lage (jazz wiz kid) took Alexander as a teen for years. Obviously he felt it was worth it
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Date Oct. 18 2016 21:05:38
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Mark2
Posts: 1837
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran)
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Some good points. I've never taken alexander classes, but have read a bit about the technique. It does make sense. Lately, I've been trying to really focus on total posture and finding the most comfortable playing position before trying to execute a picado passage and find it does help. 160 bpm strong and clear though is very far away for me so I'll bow out of this thread........
quote:
ORIGINAL: turnermoran
quote:
if you get the fingers right, the rest automatically falls into place.
I hear what you guys are saying.. But I think it's foolish to think all we need to do is focus on fingertips and we'll be shredding in no time.
For one, the premise of Feldenkrais and Alexander technique is total body. Second, there are tons of players whose fingers a fine but are doing something else that is obviously a hinderance.
While focusing on upper arm seems counter productive, ignoring it completely seems absurd to me. Enough time has already been spent on Paco's techinque on this forum, a good deal of which observes his upper arm in relationship to his hands. And for him, they are obviously related, and completely consistent. So I'd say for anyone following his technique, this is what the technique involves.
And for anyone who says, 'fine; works for him. But not for everyone', that to me reinforces what I think is the necessary discussion of "technique" - that it incorporates everything. I mean, there's a whole wave of classical players using props under the guitar just to have 2 feet squarely planted on the floor. (And there we'd be discussing feet as they relate to operating one's hands!)
That's why I think all the mechanics of the body are just as important as the fingers.
And yet I hardly hear this discussed.
I dunno.. maybe there are 2 many variables person to person to make a discussion useful.
But, for example, has anyone taken lessons where a teacher has made highly specific adjustments to one's technique that include super small adjustments to posture?
That is supposedly what Feldenkrais/Alexander incorporates..
Julian Lage (jazz wiz kid) took Alexander as a teen for years. Obviously he felt it was worth it
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Date Oct. 18 2016 22:24:22
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Piwin
Posts: 3521
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran)
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It's not necessarily inconsistent with a whole body approach. What I meant is that your fingers are always the starting point. I've worked a few times with a physical therapist who specializes in musical practice. Her office is filled with various instruments and she works through all your posture issues, within the limits that you give her. So if I tell her, my fingers need to strike the strings here, at this angle, she'll work out what I can do to improve posture elsewhere while maintaing the same angle with my fingers and whatnot. And indeed, some things can be solved by changing posture, like lessening shoulder discomfort by better spine alignment, etc. But if you adopt a posture that is optimal for your shoulders but makes it impossible for you to attack the strings at the right angle, then you have a problem. And if you force your hand to learn how to get the sound you want in this new position, then it's sort of defeating the whole purpose of changing posture, i.e. being as relaxed as possible. Anyways, I'm not saying that you should ignore the rest of your body, only that I think your hand (fingers) should be the starting point.
edit: was it PdL who said he focused on relaxing his tongue when he felt he was tensing up? Can't remember.
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Date Oct. 18 2016 23:05:45
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turnermoran
Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo)
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Sorry ya'll: admittedly, I let the focus of my question wander a bit on this one.
What I'm trying to get at is the sense that I have that while one thing improved (finger placement/efficiency), the side effect is that the distance from one string to another seems larger than it did before, and whether this perception is something other's have felt. It's a good problem to have, because before, the fingers had a range of motion less precise, and the area a finger moved when plucking a string was roughly the same range of motion whether plucking on string, or switching strings. Now, with the range of motion tightened up for plucking one string, it makes the switching seems like the a jumping a big gap.
Whether or not the arms, shoulders, mind..etc etc are the tools to navigate this, .. it sounds like it varies. And sure, finger placement is key, but has anyone noticed this sensation? Is this a normal part of the process?
It's probably just me   
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Date Oct. 24 2016 16:53:43
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Ricardo
Posts: 14414
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to turnermoran)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turnermoran
Sorry ya'll: admittedly, I let the focus of my question wander a bit on this one.
What I'm trying to get at is the sense that I have that while one thing improved (finger placement/efficiency), the side effect is that the distance from one string to another seems larger than it did before, and whether this perception is something other's have felt. It's a good problem to have, because before, the fingers had a range of motion less precise, and the area a finger moved when plucking a string was roughly the same range of motion whether plucking on string, or switching strings. Now, with the range of motion tightened up for plucking one string, it makes the switching seems like the a jumping a big gap.
Whether or not the arms, shoulders, mind..etc etc are the tools to navigate this, .. it sounds like it varies. And sure, finger placement is key, but has anyone noticed this sensation? Is this a normal part of the process?
It's probably just me
Work on these two licks building speed to your 160 bpm and beyond:
-7-----------------7--------------------7---etc-
------10-8-7-------------10-8-7----------------
---------------9--------------------9-------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Use m-m-i-m-i- repeat, the B note is an 8th note and the rest are 16ths. Next try this:
-7-----------------------------7---------------------------7--etc
-----10-8-7-------7-8-10--------10-8-7-------7-8-10---------
---------------9-----------------------------9--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Straight 16th, but learn it both starting with m, and starting with i. There will always be the awkward cross, but the arm doesn't move. But if you move these patterns to other string sets you will have to reposition your arm a bit to orient your fingers comfortably. Yes you have to jump between strings with these exercises but it is just part of the deal you need to get used to at high speed.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 24 2016 18:17:10
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mark indigo
Posts: 3623
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Picado journey to >160bpm (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Work on these two licks building speed to your 160 bpm and beyond:
-7-----------------7--------------------7---etc-
------10-8-7-------------10-8-7----------------
---------------9--------------------9-------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Use m-m-i-m-i- repeat, the B note is an 8th note and the rest are 16ths. Next try this:
-7-----------------------------7---------------------------7--etc
-----10-8-7-------7-8-10--------10-8-7-------7-8-10---------
---------------9-----------------------------9--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Straight 16th, but learn it both starting with m, and starting with i. There will always be the awkward cross, but the arm doesn't move. But if you move these patterns to other string sets you will have to reposition your arm a bit to orient your fingers comfortably. Yes you have to jump between strings with these exercises but it is just part of the deal you need to get used to at high speed.
quote:
I use that as an exercise too, but I do it as bursts, with the the b string notes. Taken from Paco.
quote:
the B note is an 8th note just the first note? or all B notes? so does it go 8th, 16th,16th,16th,16th, 8th, 16th,16th,16th,16th, etc.? and how does that timing work in the second lick? is that one just the first note an 8th and then all the others 16ths?
where is it taken from Paco? if I could hear it it would probably make sense....
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Date Nov. 3 2016 17:50:54
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