String spacing and neck width

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f.j.w.

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 20 2016

String spacing and neck width

Hi All

My first guitar build is still in the thinking stage. Hopefully I will soon be able to do some actual work! I still have a few decisions to make before I begin.

I will base my guitar in David Merrin's 1934 plan. It seems prudent to start off with something traditional (I can go crazy later!). The scale length is 655. The plan contains no information about the doming, so I think I will use a 3mm doming. This seems fairly standard.

So the last thing I need to determine before I begin is the string spacing and the neck width. The original instrument has a 51mm wide neck at the nut and 61mm wide at the 12th fret. The string spacing at the bridge is 56.5mm. This is much narrower than my teachers guitar, which is 53.7mm at the nut, 63.0mm at the 12th fret and a string spacing at the bridge of 59.0mm. My own guitar is 52.0mm nut, 62.0mm at the 12th fret and 56.0mm bridge string spacing. This feels too wide for me, but I used to play electric guitar and maybe I just have to get used to it.

This also makes me think of the thickness of the neck. Does this correspond to the width? I could imagine that wide neck should be thinner to compensate.

My teachers guitar neck is 22.1mm thick at the first fret, and 24.4mm at the 9th fret.
My guitar is 19.5mm at the 1st fret and 22.5 at the 9th fret.
Again my guitar feels better to me, but again I may just not be ready to judge this for myself. Things become normal for a reason.

It seem that older guitars (pre 1920) often had narrower necks and closer strings. What is the reason why necks and string spacing became wider. Would it have something to do with development of playing technique or transition from gut strings to nylon. Nylon is much more flexible than gut. Perhaps you need more space to activate the string with nylon?

So my question is what is normal nowadays?
Width of nut?
Width of neck at 12th fret?
String spacing of the bridge?
Thickness of the neck at the 1st fret?
Thickness of the neck at the 9th fret?

Also I wish to say that I appreciate everyones openness and generosity! With sharing of knowledge everyone wins. I only wish that I an offer something in return. If any of you have any questions about violins please do not hesitate to contact me privately and I will be happy to help. Violin talk may be a bit too off topic for the forum.

Saludos to all and thank you so much in advance.

Frank JW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2016 12:47:30

Njål Bendixen

Posts: 65
Joined: Aug. 25 2016

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

quote:

It seem that older guitars (pre 1920) often had narrower necks and closer strings. What is the reason why necks and string spacing became wider. Would it have something to do with development of playing technique or transition from gut strings to nylon. Nylon is much more flexible than gut. Perhaps you need more space to activate the string with nylon?

Interesting. I too have been thinking the same thing. I know form lutes that gut strings feel much tighter than nylon for the same tension.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2016 15:41:03

ChrisRL

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 8 2016

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to Njål Bendixen)

fjw, good morning!
Chris here, classical player and builder.

Your 52mm dimensions on your guitar are the standard ones for classical Spanish guitar.

The scale length of Torres's most successful guitars is 650mm, so your 655mm will be more sonorous at the lower end but less brilliant in the higher end. BTW the Torres necks were narrower in their time at 49mm at the nut with 8.5mm string spacing, and 60.5mm at the 12th fret, mainly because the music at the time was simpler and the proponents preferred narrower necks (at that time).

Contrast if you will a late model Jose Romanillos guitar (Romanillos has a construction book and plans of his own, was a self-taught British luthier born in Spain (and who has now retired in Spain, leaving his son in London to continue the business), who analyzed, repaired and has written the definitive book on the life and work of Torres.
Romanillos's neck is 52.5mm wide, scale length 650mm, 62.5 width at 12th fret. Bridge is 59mm total string width, 11.8mm separation. That's after examining more than 50 of Torres's original guitars and building many successful ones of his own.

Variations on the Torres standard are for playability but also for type of music played.

Start with your design goals, though. What style of piece will the guitar be used for?

Remember that saying "all types" is like saying you want an electric guitar to be able to play "all types" of electric guitar music, including bass guitar. Even in electric, you'll need at least a double neck guitar with multiple pickups and a boatload of electronics to get anywhere near, and it will be "near" only, not "spot on.

If you're going to go with a totally Flamenco guitar, with chords, and lots of strumming/rasgueado, then maybe a narrower neck might be okay.

If you're going to play classical guitar pieces, with mainly chords, arpeggios, lead lines and finger style (written) music, then the 52mm and flat fingerboard is more advisable since you can get your left hand fingers in easier.

The narrower fingerboards and radiusing and cutaways with neck at fret 14 (and fret markings) and guitar strap buttons and pickups are mainly for electric guitar players who want the nylon string sound and play more jazz, country, blues and other finger picked styles, not classical music.

The Torres style was arrived at because of its playability and projection (un-amplified volume). Yes, you'll have to get used to the fingerboard if you're playing classical pieces.
If you're using a classical guitar to strum on, then probably adding a pick guard, radiusing the fingerboard, and a thinner neck would be warranted, as would adding at least a carbon fiber reinforcement rod or two, a double-action truss rod and a dovetail joint, which would make your setups easier after a few years have passed by.

Roy Courtnall's "Making Master Guitars" has all the dimensions of all the famous guitar designs, within the classical guitar realm anyway. Tom Bills's "The Art of Lutherie" is my go-to place to research, as is his wonderful website and luthier's course. Tom is a jazz player and a high end builder as well.

Tom Bills has a complete course in exactly what you're looking for, not just the 'how' of guitar design, but the 'why'. His "Art of Lutherie" contains most, if not all of the base material of his course.

Why were the older necks narrower?

The sizes of the orchestras and concert halls probably influenced the design.
Also the actual sizes of the guitarists (don't forget, most master guitars are bespoke instruments, made to order). So especially when artists like Pepe Romero request a fingerboard more conducive to his style and speed, he will ask for (and receive) many differing dimensions of guitars to try out. When Romanillos was building his first guitars in the back of Julian Bream's garden workshop, Bream commissioned the first four guitars to be built for him, and then he chose the one he liked the best. This is important because he probably wasn't interested in "the best of the four guitars" - how can the first four of anything be the maker's best? - but the one he liked the best.

So my own "normal" is the following:

Width of nut: 54mm
Width of neck at 12th: 64mm
String Spacing @ bridge: 11.8mm
Thickness at 1st: 24mm
Thickness at 12th: 27mm

Which is a little wider than the Romanillos design.

Mostly these dimensions come from building a few guitars, then playing them.
One reason why animal hide glue is important to assemble the guitar - it is easily steamed off again!

Another beginner's trick is to laminate a piece of paper between the top and the sides when initially assembling. This will allow you to separate the joint easily after tuning the main sound box and neck, and examine from the inside the results of your decisions.

Any more questions, please ask. I'm by no means a master builder yet, but I have some experience, and there are many others on this and other boards who can help.

Best
Chris

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2016 18:49:23

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to ChrisRL)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisRL

The scale length of Torres's most successful guitars is 650mm, so your 655mm will be more sonorous at the lower end but less brilliant in the higher end.

You actually think a 5mm increase in scale length will have this effect? Nothing in my experience has shown this to be the case.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2016 20:03:34

ChrisRL

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 8 2016

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

Agreed, there probably isn't much to it, especially to a beginner's ear, but before I started my first CG build I spent over a year listening to classical guitars and performances and tonewoods in as many different live environments as I could, and learning all I could about the theory involved. I was quoting Courtnall about 650 being the most successful scale length of the Torres design, but since the OP was asking, that's what I came up with.

I build slightly fanned frets so I personally think they're better longer at the bass side.
Even though I'm a relative rookie at CG building, I have built many electric basses, piccolo basses and electric guitars and since the steel strings have a lot more tension in them, I have noticed a tremendous difference due to scale length. The nylon strings not so much, but then again I don't think many beginners would be able to tell between normal and high tension nylon strings, or the difference between different types and makes of strings either. To get into the finer points of this also requires that the player of the guitars be of sufficient quality to be able to discern that the variations are in the guitar, rather than in the playing.

And I don't think I have to mention that the difference between a Fender guitar and a Gibson one is 3/4" or so, which is around 19mm, and that's a huge tonal difference that the world can hear, no matter who's playing them.

So a 5mm difference on a CG might be a lot slighter but it all adds up, in my opinion and (limited) experience. The actual combination of the tonewoods, the soundbox dimensions, and the rest of the complex system that comprises a guitar, not to mention what a "guitar should sound like", which is in itself subjective, has probably dictated this area of variance in design between all of the major luthiers of our time, and before. Otherwise there would be only one optimum set of CG dimensions, and the OP wouldn't have had his original question.

YMMV, I should have added, and JM2c.

Best
C

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2016 20:22:35

f.j.w.

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug. 20 2016

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

OK. thank you all for our contribution. Just to be clear, I know what kind of guitar I need to build. I just do not know what that is yet. I am building a flamenca blanca, for playing flamenco music. I need to determine what the string spacing should be and the width of the neck. I can not trust my own experience since I am not yet used to playing on Spanish guitars (I used to play electric). I need to know what I would want to have five years in the future. If only I could come back and tell myself.

So far I have been told between 52.5mm and 54mm neck at the nut, and a 56.5mm to 59mm string spacing at the bridge. This is a huge difference! What is considered market standard today?

Frank JW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2016 22:29:53

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

quote:

So far I have been told between 52.5mm and 54mm neck at the nut, and a 56.5mm to 59mm string spacing at the bridge. This is a huge difference! What is considered market standard today?

Unfortunately your in a world of custom and handmade instruments, there is no standard. More common would be the smaller side of those numbers but none of them is "wrong" it's all a matter of preference. Me personally, as a player only, 52mm nut and around 56-57mm string spacing but I came from the electric world. Someone who came from the classical world will probably prefer much wider but both are blancas and both muy flamenco.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2016 22:58:32

ChrisRL

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 8 2016

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

Frank, hello!

Chris here. Thanks for your input, it makes things a lot easier.

If you go by what's popular nowadays, and start with, let's say the Cordoba GK Negra, you'll find that's a 50mm/650mm/59mm machine (nut/scale/string spacing at bridge).

The Cordoba Reyes Flamenco is also 50/650/59mm, as is the Cordoba Esteso. Actually, all of the Cordoba master series (cordobaguitars.com) are the same.

That alone should tell you something about what works for most people these days, custom instruments aside.

There are plans available on LMI for the Manuel Reyes Sr. Flamenco by Tom Blackshear that's 54/655mm scale length, if you prefer that. I've played an original Reyes and I loved it. That one was 54/655.
However, the Cordoba Master series Reyes design specs out like the rest of the Cordoba range at 50/650/59mm

I think you'll see that the spec of a factory like Cordoba means that mass production is made easier, and that most people don't really care about the variation in nut width or string scale or string spacing. With a master luthier like Kenny Hill behind the Cordoba wheel, I think you can at least start there.

HTH, YMMV etc

Best
Chris

BTW/ isn't Tom Blackshear building a Reyes design SN Flamenco right here on this site?
Why don't you drop him a line and ask him?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2016 0:49:43

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3031
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

I think the "standard" is generally considered to be 650/52. But there really is no standard, especially if you're making your own guitar. You get to do whatever you want!

The width of the fingerboard at the 12th fret is generally 10 mm wider than the nut.

My own personal standard?
655 scale, 53 nut
neck thickness 22-24
String spacing at bridge 58

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2016 0:59:14

ChrisRL

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 8 2016

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

This from the website of Ethan Deutsch, Luthier:

The scale length I typically use is 656 mm. Like the great 20th-Century luthiers Santos Hernández, Marcelo Barbero, and Domingo Esteso, I have found this scale length to be optimal for flamenco guitars...
My standard neck has a nut width of 52 mm and is 60 mm wide at the 12th fret, with the combined thickness of the cedar and ebony being about 20 mm at the first fret and 21 mm at the 9th fret. Typically they are set up so that with the action at the 12th fret about 2.7 mm, the string height at the bridge is about 8 mm.

If you subscribe to the Santos Hernández sound, then there you go!

Best
Chris

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2016 1:01:25

timoteo

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to ChrisRL)

@f.j.w.: You can't go wrong with 52/650 - that's dead typical. Generalizing, smaller is rare, larger is rare for classicals and less rare for flamencos, but start with the typical until you know better what works for you. Read the forum archives, you will see hundreds of posts on scale length and string spacing - don't expect all of that to be repeated here in response to your post. Bottom line, the scale and string spacing aren't a significant factor in determining the sound of the guitar, and play only a little role in the playability (and is very subjective at that), so don't get hung up on a few millimeters here or there. Just build it, learn from that build, then build another one.

@ChrisRL: Take some time and peruse the huge archive of posts on this forum. You will find that all of this has been discussed hundreds of times before. Doing this, you will familiarize yourself with the wealth of expertise participating here, including the luthiers you quote, Ethan Deutsch and Tom Blackshear. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the advice/opinion of people like John Shelton, who have easily built at least 10 times the number of guitars that you have. Maybe listen to them and re-examine what you believe to be true, because they have been building guitars for decades and have a depth of experience that can't be gained through book learning or gedankenexperiments.

I don't want to derail this thread, but saying the tonal differences between Fenders and Gibsons are because of the scale length is just crazy. Pickups (type, construction, placement) and body mass, among other things, are so much more important.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2016 1:49:43

ChrisRL

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 8 2016

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

Timoteo
Not dismissing anybody's opinion at all, sorry if I gave that impression.
Having built more than a few electric guitars from scratch myself for over 40 years now, I think that book learning and gedankenexperiments is a little uncalled for.
Regardless, and back on topic, 650/52 seems to be the normal for a commercial flamenco style guitar, and it doesn't take a pro luthier to discuss that.
Thanks
Chris

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2016 2:13:04

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

My standard 52 nut 660 scale length. 22 to 24 neck thickness. 8.8mm string spacing at the nut and 11.5mm at he saddle.

Make it and get used to it that's just the way it is.

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2016 9:53:02

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: String spacing and neck width (in reply to f.j.w.)

As a player, the thing that gets me is not the literal width of the fingerboard but the actual way the nut slots are cut. The variation in that is very surprising to me. I guess it comes down to a fear of pulling the string off the edge??? But honestly the wider you cut the slots apart RELATIVE to what ever measurements you are using (i.e. The closer to SAME the width of the strings at bridge and nut are) the BETTER it always feels. It's the tapering down thing that is just plain annoying.

Scale length means absolutely nothing at all about anything except to the left hand at the first fret. It's absolutely ridiculous the used guitar salesmen have learned to fool customers into thinking "650" is ideal or standard or anything else. I have 650 (and shorter) and 670 and everything in between. Only action matters.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 9 2016 12:14:32