Question for Estela "La Firecracker"

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Question for Estela "La Firecra...

Estela,
Another Bulerias question I'm afraid! LOL!
Every now and then I hear a (modern sounding) Bulerias that sounds like it's been heavily salted with Tangos.
The beats 3 , 10, and 12 are heavily accented, and although the rhythm is fairly brisk it is deceptive, in fact it sounds like a slow/medium Tangos mixed with Bulerias.
I hope you know what I'm talking about!
I think it's a fairly recent thing.
Any ideas as to where it came from etc?

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2003 17:41:03

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

in fact it sounds like a slow/medium Tangos mixed with Bulerias.

Ron, it's so astonishing you should mention this precisely today that I can't help thinking you've been lurking at the forum where this is the subject of an ongoing string. A couple of days ago I wrote about how the division between bulerias and tangos becomes blurred, and when everyone said that was ridiculous I went on to write several long analytical messages with my observations laid out in a way that I thought was crystal-clear. Today in that group I have officially been declared insane and no one protested, which is why it's surprising you bring this up now.

Only Phil here knew what I was talking about and even posted a couple of very interesting files that left no room for doubt. I'm not sure what it is you hear on the recordings you mention, but bulerias/tango crossover exists, and in cante at least is commonplace. I wouldn't call it a recent thing by any means...nearly all pop songs put to bulerias start out as 4/4 time. In guitar it's more difficult to pin down...Phil's example was priceless and I hope he comments about it. But it was from old recordings of Marote. I'd be interested to know what guitarist and/or recordings you noticed this on.

If you're interested in some of the text I wrote to the other group and which led to the petition that I be committed, I could trim it down and either post here or send privately. There are a couple of pages at least.

As to where it "came from", I'd say it's the intrinsic nature of those rhythms rather than any sort of contrivance. In certain kinds of fiestas there are moments when no one knows or cares whether it's bulería or tangos, you can tell by the cantes and by the steps.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2003 20:13:00

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to zata)

Hi Estela,
Which one was that? I don't know any other forums apart from FT and here!
Actually I heard it again today on Ondajerez on a program that came from the "Peña de La Buena Gente".
It was actually performed by a bunch of 14 to 18 year olds!
(Which made me think it was a new development)
But I have heard it before, but only a very few times.
Sounds almost like a "new" rhythm until you catch on to the fact that's it a Bulerias.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2003 20:35:05

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Which one was that? I don't know any other forums apart from FT and here!
Actually I heard it again today on Ondajerez on a program that came from the "Peña de La Buena Gente".
It was actually performed by a bunch of 14 to 18 year olds!
(Which made me think it was a new development)
But I have heard it before, but only a very few times.
Sounds almost like a "new" rhythm until you catch on to the fact that's it a Bulerias.

Ron, it was on the yahoogroup 'flamencodisc', I call it the "bad guys' group" and they know it. 145 members: 140 lurkers and 5 posting misfits. Don't join unless you've got a very strong stomach. I only write there because there are some great people among the lurkers and we often carry on conversations privately.

I've seen guitarist Miguel Salado and singer Juan Illoro at La Buena Gente several times, but they're closer to 20 years old. I wonder who it was and what they did...maybe it's a new twist after all.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2003 22:35:53

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Ron.M)

Funny, I was listening to Nino de Pura's album--yeah, yeah, I know--and I found myself tapping tangos rhythm only to realize a minute or two later that it was a bulerias. Funny, eh? Must be the same phenomenon.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2003 22:58:02

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to zata)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 2:10:39

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I don't know what you mean about tangos & bulerias, but people have done that for a very long time.

As Yogi Berra said, "it's like deja vu all over again"...but in reverse. Over at the bad guy's forum the word is "of course you can't do that, it's impossible!".

I think this is another issue where we have to completely separate cante from guitar. Like you say Andy, it's long been commonplace for songs to have a double life in 4/4 and bulería (is it okay to use accents here?), but for purely logistical reasons that correspond to the nature of voice as opposed to the nature of intrumentals, it's less common in guitar. The Marote falseta you mention is probably the same one Phil posted both versions of, and this is most likely not a coincidence, but rather a rare example of that kind of crossover taking place in a falseta, something made possible by the repetitive short phrasing. I have a feeling this is not quite the same thing Ron noticed as he seemed to imply it was in the way the guitar carried the rhythm in the rasgueados (?).

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 2:56:52

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to zata)

Estela;

I have not had much time for the Internet and have not visited the Moron group for some time. So my comments will be my own.

The term I was taught about using any melody in Bulerias that exists outside that form is "Culpe". I play a large number of falsetas from other forms within Bulerias, be it 4/4, 3/8 or whatever fits. I have been doing this for about 45 years and the people I learned from were from Spain. I thought it was natural? If I am not mistaken Sabicas and Mario Escudero made a few recordings of this type, as well as Juan Serrano.

One thing I learned about flamenco is what happens in one neighborhood may not happen in another.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 3:12:50

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

I also see it's perfectly natural, but far more common in cante than toque. What I can't fathom is how the "Moron group" as you call it

is thoroughly baffled by the concept, particularly when it's more common in Moron guitar playing than any other.

I still don't think this is what Ron is talking about...you there Ron? Did the crossover take place in falsetas or rhythm, I think this is a fundamental point.

Regarding the use of the word "cuplé", I personally am not happy calling *everything* sung to bulerías other than traditional letras "cuplé". Is Bernarda's debla por bulería "cuplé"? Or "Strangers in the night" which has been done to bulerías?...what about when Miguel Funi's wife Cristobalina sings the children's ditty "Hola Don Pepito" to bulería? I'm not sure what to call those things, but "cuplé" doesn't do it for me.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 3:38:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to zata)

Hi Estela,
They weren't the "regulars" but introduced as the "Jovenes of La Buena Gente", and featured at the end of the program as a sort of novelty thing.
My Spanish is extremely rusty (not that it was ever that good anyway) but I can catch some fragments here and there. The interviewer was asking them things like "Hey..what are you kids doing singing and playing Flamenco, rather than having a good time outside with your friends?" All in good humour, I must add!
As for the Bulerias/Tangos?
If you isolated the guitar, then you'd say the guitarist was playing straight Bulerias.
However, they were using a cajon and very heavy palmas, which seemed to imply Tangos in places.
The singing was "group" singing rather than an individual singer.
I don't know anything about the technicalities of the Cante, but I just felt the song had a flavour and atmosphere that kept jumping between Tangos and Bulerias.
Not that the song or rhythm was actually jumping, but my perception kept jumping back and forth rather like that optical illusion you get looking at a wire frame box...You know, which way is the box facing.
By the way, they were extremely good (sickeningly good LOL!).
It's when you see and hear stuff like that from teenagers it makes you see how being born and brought up in Jerez has slight advantages over London or Washington when it comes to learning Flamenco!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 8:51:27

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Not that the song or rhythm was actually jumping, but my perception kept jumping back and forth rather like that optical illusion you get looking at a wire frame box...You know, which way is the box facing.

THIS is extraordinary Ron. Look at how I described the bulería/tango crossover to these guys at flamencodisc who are so sure they're experts on all things flamenco:

QUOTE
Think of all those optical illusions you see
in books. "Which stick is longer?" You choose the longer stick but then
the book says "they are the same length". You look again and you think
"my...it's true". UNQUOTE

They couldn't understand a single word and piled on the ridicule.

I'd love to be able to hear that bit from La Buena Gente.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 9:38:12

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to zata)

Clearly the same star sign

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 9:57:00

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Ron.M)

zata,
if people aren't ready to hear something, nothing you say will change that!
people collect evidence to back up what they already think, they don't collect evidence to find out what's really true.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 17:07:30

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 17:22:24

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

people collect evidence to back up what they already think, they don't collect evidence to find out what's really true.

True enough Michael, but when you look at the other guy's evidence, especially if it's clearly presented, the only logical reaction can be accept it, or challenge it. Or am I missing something?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 18:04:09

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Question for Estela "La Fir... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

You cannot say anything in flamenco that is always true or true for all artists.

Including the above

Compás is the great leveler, the one thing everyone who has it can agree upon despite minor differences. It's because of compás people who never met each other can make flamenco that looks like it took years of rehearsals.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2003 18:08:22