RE: Todd-the-Terrible strikes again

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Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Todd-the-Terrible strikes again (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Michael,
"What's everyone talking about?"
Read my earlier post up the line a bit.
Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 8:35:16

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todd-the-Terrible strikes again (in reply to Josh)

quote:

Tom+Jim: I definitely agree.
Simon: I think that if this convo is to go on it should be in the public area. Is that possible?

I would prefer to delete it rather than move it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 8:59:20

El Craic

Posts: 164
Joined: Jul. 28 2003
From: Atlantic battered NW Ireland

RE: Todd-the-Terrible strikes again (in reply to Ron.M)

Hello Zata and Ron. I can be a bit fiery too, it's the celtic half.

Now, I only have a pc at work and I only get time for a good browse when the mangaement team have gone to the pub for an all day meeting, such as they have today. But I try to pop on in between word documents and have a browse when I can. I have been reading the posts on solea por bulerias etc with interest/confusion.

Zata I have been learning for 2 1/2 years just and I am too old for any virtuosity but too young not to believe that I can become confident/competant. I am learning accompaniment with a dancer in Belfast but obviously learning the cante is difficult. I take lessons whenever I can. Eg this weekend in Dublin, a friend from Cordoba and I managed to bribe Maria Pages' guitarist to give us a lesson in his hotel room. Not many guitarists have me digging my nails in my palm in case I get overly emotional, but an intimate environment helps. It is teachers of this calibre I need all the time. I have a hell of a lot to learn about everything and I am still doing an hour a day with a metronome for my technique.

I will be in Jerez next March for the festival and I'd love to pick your brain (I did meet you briefly last year) and I promise I am learning Spanish but until I figure out how to make a living over there, progress is slow. I think I will probably be meeting up with Robin Totton and Melchor Diaz, hopefully I can meet up with you too?

four months to go.........and counting..........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 9:47:10

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 13:55:22

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

not leading the singer (in reply to Florian)

I have been learning a little accompanying in my lessons, and my teacher tells me no to lead him. He says I have to follow him. Here I am playing the changes on compas for alegrias, 3 and 10 for example, and he says I have to wait for his tone. How does this work, in Western music terms? Does this mean that instead of changing on the 3 and 10, that I really have to change on the 3.5 and 10.5?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 14:55:04

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 15:42:43

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Guest)

quote:

One trick of "following" the singer that I've learned is this - Instead of playing the chord on 1, play only a soft bass note.

Andy, I love your description, it's so down-to-earth, and reflects what the process feels like. You devil, putting quotation marks around "following"

. Subtle backing-up without getting in the way is what good cante accompaniment is about.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 16:08:43

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

First of all, it's your singer's responsibility to change in compas, which in alegrias is 3 and 10. But Michael, if he gets up to his E7 (or equivalent) and waits, *you must also wait*...you can't doggedly go back to A on the next change. Likewise, the singer has the option of elongating lines, so you have to listen carefully for when the real change takes place and not assume non-stop 3-10-3-10-3-10...

The way you say "3.5" and "10.5" suggests the singer might be changing late...generally speaking the voice arrives at destination shortly before the guitarist, after having made very clear where it's headed.

Another possibility is your singer might be singing cantin~as which s/he might, for the sake of expediency, be calling alegrias which are nowheres near as ordered as alegrias, and might even contain additional chords.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 16:12:15

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 16:44:14

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Another thing Michael is that in alegrias the singer has the option of starting with one extra, unpaired tercio

Finetuning: I can't think of any instance when a singer has not followed the 2-1-2-3-4 (optional repeat of 3-4) for alegrias, so I wouldn't call it an option, but rather an obligation. Cantin~as are much more disorganized. Sean is the alegrias expert...maybe he'll comment.

Do you remember the verse of that Fosforito reference Andy?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 17:06:45

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 17:15:36

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Fosforito sings it that way for the very first letra, then in the second letra section he sings 2 letras back to back (8 compas) without repeats.

Andy, that sounds like a letra with coletilla (?)...letras back-to-back is not an alegrias 'thing'. The strict form of alegrias is 5 or 7 compases with 2- or 4-compas coletilla. Fosforito doesn't mess around with tradition, so I'm hoping I can recognize any piece of the verse you might post. He popularized the "Titirimundi" coletilla...could it have been that?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 17:32:37

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 17:46:15

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Guest)

quote:

The secton "letra section" is 8 compas/lines long with no repeats.

Andy, I remember one thing I'd classify as 'buleria de Cadiz' that Fosforito used to sing for alegrias:

Dicen que van a poner
un puente por la bahia
cerca ya voy a tener
a tu persona de la mia.
Si me quisieras seria
el mas dichoso del mundo
y en cambio yo te daria
mi carin~o mas profundo.

Does that sound familiar?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 17:55:33

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 18:16:11

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Guest)

So, for accompany the alegrias, if the changes _are_on 3 and 10, you should change chords on those beats, but just do it unobtrusively? Or is there a little delay? If the singer hits the note on 3, are you supposed to anticipate his change and arrive at the same time, or do you kind of hit after him so not to step on his toes?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2003 20:36:41

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2003 14:32:24

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Guest)

I don't have it. Thanks Andy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2003 15:30:40

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Clavel mañanero (alegrías)

Andy, this rings a bell, but I can't remember any part of the melody. You can see it's some kind of song. The verses are poetically related and there are too many 5-syllable ones for them all to be coletillas (which often use 5-syllable verses while regular alegrias letras use 8-syllables). I wish Sean would comment, but I don't think any alegrias letras deviate from the form.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2003 0:35:07

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: not leading the singer (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

The singer's melody should point in the direction of the target chord and the voice should fall in time for the guitarist to be able to get there in compas, never before the signer. If that doesn't happen, you could start blaming the singer for not knowing compas. "Unobtrusively" no...nothing like the right chord being flourished after the singer gets there.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2003 0:42:48