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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)
Dont confuse Antonio with Manolo. Antonio was saved from jail by Alberto San Miguel, who offered him a place in his flat, booked actuaciones, acaompanied him, managed to make a record.
But Antonio has a regular voice and is just an ordinary cantaor. Manolo, who sang in the Peña, is a fenómeno. A great cantaor gitano, wiht a great voice.
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
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ORIGINAL: Jsncdlng
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ORIGINAL: Grisha
I think "further digging into eastern music" would be a dead end because guitar does not do microtones well and flamenco already has its own rhythmic patterns. Eastern music is not rich on harmony and rather is melodically oriented.
Microtonal music is only a small part of the eastern music scene. And a guitar accesses microtones as good as any instrument - is playing with a slide flamenco, no, but nor is plugging in to my ears, nor is a bass guitar or a cajon - though I like the cajon. I can't enjoy the guitar with all this poppycock in the background? What's with all the metronomes playing behind the falsetas lately? I don't think strict compas should be measured with electronics ... A metronome is absolutely essential for practice but please don't put one on you tube .... Sound like that crazy Rubén dude always hammering along to an electric beep.
Typical attitude...to shun the metronome. The old players understood it perfectly well. Palmas are the metronome. As music gets more syncopated the solid tempo beat is required to have a concept of soniquete. It's not about any struggle artistically with restraints of rhythm. The music has evolved to a point that to hear the reference against the sophisticated melody is a beautiful way to express soniquete (swing and groove) that a meandering, wavering pulse destroys. The whole point is to take music higher and higher on that level.
"Jazz chords" or extensions of 9 11 13 are already present in the old toques for the most part. Treatment or use of the traditional structures is what has changed. If you want to not like or understand what is going on at the higher level, then your opinion, tastes and preferences will stay with what you can wrap your ear around. That is fine, but all the rest of guitar students that wish to advance will need to understand what is happening and confront the issue of compas directly whether they like it or not. If you want to have an open minded discussion about what is going on it has to go there. If you just want to vent that the good ol days of flamenco guitar are gone (as far too many have already done), then that is a different topic.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)
That was Gerardo at his peak. Ricardo recorded the video and I recorded the sound digitally. I will never forget that year. Its a bulerias but interpreted in Gerardos super human style. BTW he also showed us Impetu "on steroids" too.....totally mind blowing the speed he could perform it.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to gerundino63)
That is the good version...Gerardo is playing that piece in a huge building like an old church. The original video sound track was pretty poor. By luck I had a digital recorder switched on near one of the speakers so Ricardo was able to put the two together.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Ricardo)
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If you want to have an open minded discussion about what is going on it has to go there.
So, in the case of Trafalgar (first time I asked my teacher to walk me through that piece, I asked for Gibraltar by Gerardo Nunez. He wasn't happy. at all. ), what is going on that makes it "modern"? If it's syncopation, the main melody doesn't seem any more syncopated than more traditional pieces (except maybe a few passages). The arpeggios that accompany the melody are more complex and more syncopated though than more traditional stuff IMO so maybe that's part of it? Or is it the drop-D tuning (and different key) that isn't common with bulerias that makes people think of it as a modern piece? Or all/none of the above?
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
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As far as I'm aware the Bulerias is very open to growth as its compas seems to be fluid and open to much counter rhythm.
I think it's more that bulerias is a good palo to 'jam' on. The fast Bb-A becomes a drone, and the compas makes it more interesting than let's say, a tangos (not that a long tangos HAS to be boring). Contrast to a palo like Fandangos that's more structured in terms of chord changes.
Or it just may be more popular right now so people are messing with it more.
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perhaps more than anything I hate a plugged in guitar sound.
Most of this thread you've been talking about things you don't like. Can you give some examples of stuff you DO like?
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)
What I've personally experienced and have seen on this forum many many times is the better you get at flamenco as a whole the more you appreciate modern playing. I used to hate modern playing, I later figured out it was because I couldn't understand what was happening properly and therefore lacked the skills and understanding needed to fully appreciate it. I don't think I've ever met a working flamenco that didn't appreciate modern toque.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)
My only real gripe with modern flamenco is how much of it gets very soft and easy listenningish - but singers seem every bit as (if not more) guilty as guitarists in that respect.
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)
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My only real gripe with modern flamenco is that a lot of it gets very soft and easy listenningish.
I'd agree with that, there's certainly artists and songs I can't even listen to. I know it's insanely difficult, it's just not my bag. Deep down I'm still a metal head lol
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From: Washington, DC
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
What I've personally experienced and have seen on this forum many many times is the better you get at flamenco as a whole the more you appreciate modern playing. I used to hate modern playing, I later figured out it was because I couldn't understand what was happening properly and therefore lacked the skills and understanding needed to fully appreciate it. I don't think I've ever met a working flamenco that didn't appreciate modern toque.
We may have to make a distinction here between "modern" toque, i.e., the way the guitar is played, and the way some flamencos include other instruments, i.e., additional guitars, bass guitars, harmonicas, etc. Speaking strictly for myself, I have no problem with so-called "modern" toque vs. the old-timers, as far as the guitar is concerned. What I find objectionable is the addition of a "band," or other instruments that muddle and detract from the principal flamenco guitarist.
Bill
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RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jsncdlng
Thanks. I needed that, I read somewhere in the forum how much more sophisticated modern flamenco has become and I jus had a little tanty - I will keep my whining to myself now. Well, I like long walks in the moonlight ... The beach with waves and I LOVE tequila. Heh
Ok. Ok. I have been quite interested in flamenco guitar for just on 20 years now. I saw some fellow playing a Ras in 1998 outside a train station and thought what the **** was that! I'd been in a deep conversation with folk music for about 3 years prior and the rasgueado mesmerised me. I soon began trying to figure it out. By the time I met my wife a year later I was getting quite fluid with imae dddd and she showed me a book she had bought in France with a guitar what told me I was doing it wrong. I like my music unsophisticated. I like the sound of a ragged rasgueado and music that has an occasional bum note. I like the tension between strict compas and the need to be free. I like the ebb and flow of granainas and the suspended nature of tarantos/as whatever. I like to hear old folk in the back ground mumbling Spanish accolades and a perfectly produced golpe (my own are always too loud) I like a tempo somewhere within the stratosphere and the look in the eyes of passers by who misconstrue my rapid fire eami ras upon one string on the banjo as finger picking ... I like the mirth of the Alegrias in A and the story I can hear inside a soleares. But mostly I like the way we count Seguiriyas and wring such feeling from the juxtaposition of time. I read poetry at poetry nights whilst playing simple Seguiriyas or granainas and I love that. I love the sound of a Blanc guitar with little sustain and how it calls out for constant finger whacking attention. I just like it simple :)
I was hoping for some concrete examples of "unsophisticated" players you like...
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Leñador)
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What this thread is lacking is a Bulerias de Tom Araya!
\m/!!
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We may have to make a distinction here between "modern" toque
Yeah I just mean playing, even in a singer dancer guitar only scenario you can still play things modern. Even Paco Peña plays more modern when he's playing for singers and dancers. High syncopated llamadas and what not. I too can't handle most instruments in my flamenco, I'm just not there yet. Especially flute or sax....
RE: The Sophistication of Flamenco G... (in reply to Guest)
I didn't mean unsophisticated as a derogatory thing, but I can see why you wouldn't want to name names. :-)
How's this guy for you (ironically playing at a Jazz festival) -
He's got some stuff that's more Indian influenced as well (Habichuela en Rama).
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Although it's obviously not a popular choice I really love the way JM leans toward Mecca melodically, and those countries where one might find an oud. Whether or not his guitarist is up to scratch is not for me to say
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), what is going on that makes it "modern"? 
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