Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face!   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
wicohere

 

Posts: 3
Joined: Feb. 12 2014
 

Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! 

I've been learning Flamenco guitar for a few months now on a Jose Ramirez FL2 flamenco guitar and I noticed few weeks ago that there is a crack in the face of the guitar.. I don't think it affected the sound (at least nothing that I could notice maybe because I'm still a beginner).

My question is why do you think that happened? is there something I may have done wrong that caused this? It wasn't hit or dropped or anything, and nothing unusual about practicing.

Your advice is appreciated in case I can do something to avoid this from happening to my future guitars.

PS. The guitar was purchased new and had no damage to it at all.

Cheers



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 4:24:32
 
Piwin

Posts: 3541
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

The luthier I usually go to told me that if ever I noticed a crack on the top of the guitar I should immediately release string tension (so as to ease any pressure on the wood) and bring it in for repairs.
Of course in my case, I knew the cause: I would sometimes do golpes outside of the golpeador. I had a larger golpeador set it and problem solved. Though here it's too high for that to be the cause. Perhaps humidity related? Anyways, I'm sure the actual guitar makers on here will have better advice. Just thought I'd mention what mine had recommended, for what it's worth.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 4:50:02
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

I've got a large crack on the back of my guitar, it's been there for about two years now. Seems fine, sounds the same. Ideally I fix it but I haven't. I know it's humidity related, I kept it hanging near a window. When wood absorbs humidity and then dries out it cracks.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 5:48:37
 
wicohere

 

Posts: 3
Joined: Feb. 12 2014
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to Leñador

Thank you! perfect observation.. You just made me notice that I have actually left this particular guitar right next to the window while I kept the Oud on the other side of the room and only the guitar had this issue.

Do you think I should take it for repair though? so far I don't feel any difference in the sound quality.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 6:51:45
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1878
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

Definitely take it to have it repaired, and be more conscious about where you're keeping the guitar. These babies are very sensitive to humidity issues. I also have an FL2, it has survived all kinds of things by now, but fortunately it's still in perfect shape. But it's kept in a humicase at all times.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 7:51:03
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

I´m 99% sure this is a typical humidity related crack.
Good things are that these cracks normally dont affect sound and the upper harmonic bar has made sure it didnt crack all the way to the soundhole. .

If you should get it repaired. Depends on how much you like the guitar. Its a lot easyer and cheaper to fix it well now before dirt enters the crack and before the wood gets used to its new shape. It should be humidyfied first.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 9:00:04
 
Piwin

Posts: 3541
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Depends on how much you like the guitar


I honestly didn't understand the question at first. If I may, one related question:
If the guitar has a humidity-related crack, if it is again exposed to similar humidity conditions, is it more likely that the original crack gets bigger or that new cracks appear at other places? In other words, does the guitar become particularly vulnerable to humidity where there is already a crack or is it just the same risk all over the guitar? Just curious...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 11:01:06
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

Actually, it might end up going the other way. After having a crack, the guitar relaxes and stop cracking and it might even sound better. I had a very old violin full of cracks. It was repaiered professionally and sounded worse afterwards. :)

On a guitar it all depends on where the crack is. Cracks in the lower bout are much more critical because thats where sound is produced and where string tension is.
Cracks like this one wont open up more unless the guitar is really being treated badly. Its stopped from cracking more by the side in one end and the upper harmonic bar + rosette + rosette reinforcement in the other end.

The wood will of course be more vulnerable right where its cracked and thats why I recommended repairing while its easy (cheap)

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 12:58:48
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to Leñador

quote:

I've got a large crack on the back


Thanks. Gonna have awesome and hairy dreams tonight.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 16:01:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14640
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

Check the frets along the side of the neck. If they are poking out a bit more than when you first got it, it was due to the fingerboard shrinking. Ramirez III thought to be clever and not glue down the edges of the fingerboard so when the inevitable shrinkage happens, this type of crack would not appear right next to the finger board over the top (from sound hole to edge normally this happens). There has to be give somewhere though as the ebony is so strong. Either the wood gives under the finger board (invisible hairline cracks) or like where yours happened, somewhere else on the top parrallel to the fingerboard.

Even PDL's guitar had this type of crack so I would not freak out about it. It is good to have it fixed but no rush. Meanwhile, I would keep the guitar in the case at all times when not playing. I know it is pretty and you want to look at it but it is not safe. You can put humidity in the case every day check it and after a week or so the fingerboard will swell up and the frets will go back to normal and the crack will close up. AS the guitar is dynamic about drinking and expelling water this is not a permanent repair of course. I would try to let the guitar dry out very very slowly after rehumidfying it by gradually using less water until you just check it every week then finally every month etc, but always keep it in the case.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 16:13:04
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

This works to reintroduce humidity!



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 16:42:27
 
Piwin

Posts: 3541
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Actually, it might end up going the other way. After having a crack, the guitar relaxes and stop cracking and it might even sound better. I had a very old violin full of cracks. It was repaiered professionally and sounded worse afterwards. :) On a guitar it all depends on where the crack is. Cracks in the lower bout are much more critical because thats where sound is produced and where string tension is. Cracks like this one wont open up more unless the guitar is really being treated badly. Its stopped from cracking more by the side in one end and the upper harmonic bar + rosette + rosette reinforcement in the other end. The wood will of course be more vulnerable right where its cracked and thats why I recommended repairing while its easy (cheap)


Interesting. Thanks!

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 16:44:59
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to Leñador

quote:

This works to reintroduce humidity!


Pics of Vicente pouting make you wet?




_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 17:29:21
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

Way to classy up the thread Rui lol
No one can deny Vicente is a pretty man lol

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 19:03:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

I wish I could unsee that.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 21:56:43
 
wicohere

 

Posts: 3
Joined: Feb. 12 2014
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Check the frets along the side of the neck. If they are poking out a bit more than when you first got it, it was due to the fingerboard shrinking. Ramirez III thought to be clever and not glue down the edges of the fingerboard so when the inevitable shrinkage happens, this type of crack would not appear right next to the finger board over the top (from sound hole to edge normally this happens). There has to be give somewhere though as the ebony is so strong. Either the wood gives under the finger board (invisible hairline cracks) or like where yours happened, somewhere else on the top parrallel to the fingerboard.

Even PDL's guitar had this type of crack so I would not freak out about it. It is good to have it fixed but no rush. Meanwhile, I would keep the guitar in the case at all times when not playing. I know it is pretty and you want to look at it but it is not safe. You can put humidity in the case every day check it and after a week or so the fingerboard will swell up and the frets will go back to normal and the crack will close up. AS the guitar is dynamic about drinking and expelling water this is not a permanent repair of course. I would try to let the guitar dry out very very slowly after rehumidfying it by gradually using less water until you just check it every week then finally every month etc, but always keep it in the case.


Thank you Ricardo, yes I noticed the frets poking out a bit more around the same time I noticed the crack but I didn't think these two issues were related, so thank you for pointing that out.. I'm going to follow your advice about rehumidifying the guitar inside the case... I have a Humicase but I'm not sure if that's sufficient so I will try and add humidity to the case and see how that goes.

It's true that one of the main reasons I didn't always put it in the case was because it looks beautiful on the stand but also because of the nature of my work in the medical field that I can't have a fixed practice time or schedule so to have it sitting there on the stand next to my bed whenever I get a chance to practice is quite handy -not anymore though-.

On the bright side of the story, at least I know now that I have something in common with PDL!


this was my very first post on this forum so thank you guys for all your replies, it shows how willing you are to help other members with your great knowledge!

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2016 22:30:44
 
Piwin

Posts: 3541
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

quote:

On the bright side of the story, at least I know now that I have something in common with PDL!


My something in common with PDL is the receding hairline. No comment.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2016 6:01:03
 
Filip

 

Posts: 394
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

Any photo of the PdL's crack on guitar out there?

I had the same problem with my guitar, some 5 years ago a crack just appeared on a very tricky place.
I took it to the workshop straight away and they said it is no danger since it did not break the wood entirely. There were no changes in the sound.
After a while I went back to check and they put some enforcement from the inside just to make me feel more calm.

Here you can see the photos.
https://goo.gl/photos/myceXDQ6CfZDA2Hw6
https://goo.gl/photos/29ozkjZdLRc7Ub1g9

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2016 15:09:25
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Jose Ramirez FL2 Cracked face! (in reply to wicohere

Both are typical cracks and they often happen when the workshop where they were built is not humidity controlled.

Its been said many times and here we go again. Humidity control is very important in building wooden instruments. It avoids cracking of the wood and it makes for a better sounding instrument because every part is glued together with the same humidity. This avoids stress in the instrument. I know a guitarmaker that braced and assembled a guitar in around 45% humidity and glued the bridge on in around 75% humidity. Then he asked me why the guitar sounded poor and why the soundboard dome was very high and uneven.....

In the "good old" days before dehumidifiers, the Luthier had parts of the year where he/she would assembly and parts where they would do something else. Nowadays everything has to go faster an so many good old tricks are being ignored.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2016 7:49:11
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.