RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!!

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DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

i'm listening to Paseo De Gracia and i'm thoroughly enjoying it

maybe i'll listen to Willie Nelson next

i never claimed to be a snob, i just like good music

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:54:47

BarkellWH

Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Pimientito)

Thanks for posting the vid "Zambra Granaina," Pimientito. Good to know that zambra is still performed in some quarters. I haven't seen it performed in the States, though, by Paco de Lucia, Paco Pena, or others who have run the circuit. For the most part, it has long since gone out of fashion. Too bad, in my opinion.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 0:04:41

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

i never claimed to be a snob, i just like good music

I am

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. lol

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 0:07:07

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador
At what point is it no longer a taco??

All depends if it was made before or after....

... wait for it....

... Taco de Lucia!!!

I personally prefer taco's made after the 1970s.

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tú ahora no me conoces.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 3:55:09

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to BarkellWH)

Grisha does a version of the Danza mora (which is also a zambra) by Sabicas.
Hats off to you Grisha...you really nail it in this video.
My version is a mixture of falsetas that I got from Juan Marote and a couple of other players from Granada. I dont know how many Zambras were recorded by Sabicas but there were several under the names Zambra mora, Danza mora, Danza Arabe, Zambra Granaina etc. At least half a dozen versions or variations were recorded.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 9:37:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavRom

quote:

... the unfair lable of "jazzy" is used to describe modern flamenco guitar to distinguish it form older traditional styles.

that's the sense I get, that just because "modern" flamenco guitarists have been stretching the harmonic palette their music is not pure flamenco or even flamenco at all

that's why i started the thread "what is flamenco today?"

There is this guy, now an old man, Manolo Sanlucar, he manages to deliver extremely "modern" sounding flamenco music that has exactly 0.0 to do with jazz harmony or theory, in some cases he just uses a basic two chord structure, no improvisation, but his melodic lines are very sophisticated and can be totally lost on aficionados of the old school. After all how to describe his playing other than "jazzy"? Next I point to a guy like Paco playing some jazz fusion standard with Mclaughlin like "Spain", and there he is using FLMENCO guitar specific chord voicings...so how is he even learning about jazz harmony?

In the end we can point to specifics falseta by falseta and notice that as we look toward modern flamenco we see how so much has changed, and as we look to the old guitarist by comparison, we notice how much is still the same.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 11:41:49

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 12:43:55

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Fascinating video sr. Martins,

Liked it very very much wow what a beautiful music. So this is modern? I consider(ed) myself as a traditional guy......now I am a Modern guy? I am confused......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 19:57:28

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

Wow yeah, pretty impressive performance!

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 20:19:00

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

There is this guy, now an old man, Manolo Sanlucar...

yeah, i added him to my Spotify list after hearing the duet with Paco. just haven't gotten around to him yet

quote:

Next I point to a guy like Paco playing some jazz fusion standard with Mclaughlin like "Spain", and there he is using FLMENCO guitar specific chord voicings...so how is he even learning about jazz harmony?

Paco did say he learned a lot about improvising from Larry Coryell

thx!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 22:54:59

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

For a different approach, try Jose Manuel Leon and Mujer Klorica, both on spotify I think.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 23:00:12

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

...try Jose Manuel Leon

listening to Sirimusa. a bit angular and abstract like Geraldo so i like it already

thx!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 23:15:07

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

"a la reja"...jajaja. ole! (ref to an old program we heard on hispanic radio)

great tune "Rejas de bronce"

Tonga! okay i'm really enjoying this album

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 23:23:36

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

If you want something like that but less "proggy", try Manuel de la Luz. I think he is on spotify too.

If you want more proggy, try Myrddin.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 23:28:07

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Sr. Martins)

"Río de la Plata" **** me...i need the partitura, crave it! have to hear that one again

quote:

If you want something like that but less "proggy", try Manuel de la Luz. I think he is on spotify too.

If you want more proggy, try Myrddin.

will do

many thx!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 23:34:13

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

"Río de la Plata" **** me...i need the partitura, crave it!

Good luck with that.. hay que ser positivo.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 23:51:53

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Sr. Martins)

lol

Sirimusa...great album!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2015 23:52:53

Stu

Posts: 2547
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I'm not feeling that Jeronimo video at all. And I don't know why. pretty abstract stuff going on. Maybe it would grow on me but maybe not. Is that modern flamenco?!?!?

I'd say that's more future flamenco if flamenco at all. I mean what is it? a rumba?? it seemed to be more like a rock performance with repetative licks and weird slide riffs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2015 10:23:29

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Stu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu
I'd say that's more future flamenco if flamenco at all. I mean what is it? a rumba?? it seemed to be more like a rock performance with repetative licks and weird slide riffs.

Its a Zambra, see Marks posts above for his take and Grisha's peformance of one from Sabicas. Sabicas was doing similar stuff with sliding riffs, repetitive arabic riffs etc back in the day.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2015 11:13:08

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

I would not call that modern, blues players use that tuning with a finger slide and have for ......well a long time.

It's interesting. Interesting is what you say when something is not bad, but you just kind of go "Huh?"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2015 14:15:33

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Stu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

I'm not feeling that Jeronimo video at all. And I don't know why. pretty abstract stuff going on

The rave made me take the hazzle of overcoming the internet censoring, just to watch this.

Agreed, it´s been a pulling out of a hat. Fiddling along in flamenco style.
Not serving musically.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2015 15:23:18

BarkellWH

Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

Its a Zambra, see Marks posts above for his take and Grisha's peformance of one from Sabicas. Sabicas was doing similar stuff with sliding riffs, repetitive arabic riffs etc back in the day.

Sorry, I must disagree. Jeronimo did not come close to Sabicas's performance of zambra in that video. He wasn't even comparable to Grisha, who really did capture the essence of both Zambra and Sabicas in his beautiful rendition of "Danza Mora."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2015 23:37:08

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Stu)

quote:

abstract stuff

Sorry but what exactly are you guys talking about when you say abstract?

Maybe I have the best ears ever, but most of Maya's video was pretty melodic. Definitely very rhythmic, and pretty basic harmonically.

There's nothing progressive (or what you're referring to as 'modern') about it - no modulations, no odd time signatures. Everything is straightforward.

The intro is a bit 'ethereal' and 'meditative' but it's meant for you (or him) to get into a certain mood and pretty standard.

Nothing groundbreaking, but definitely enjoyable...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2015 3:46:56

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Its a Zambra, see Marks posts above for his take and Grisha's peformance of one from Sabicas. Sabicas was doing similar stuff with sliding riffs, repetitive arabic riffs etc back in the day.

Sorry, I must disagree. Jeronimo did not come close to Sabicas's performance of zambra in that video.

I think you may has misinterpreted my post BIll, I didn't make any judgment of Jeronimo's performance and did not say I thought it was superior in any way to that of Sabicas, in fact I would prefer some of Sabicas' Zambras also.

Stu thought Jeronimo's piece was some new modern style and made reference to the repetitive riffs and sliding slicks - I was pointing out that many of the techniques employed by Jeronimo were not especially new and Sabicas was doing similar things.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2015 6:48:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!!ue (in reply to DavRom)

Yup, didn't seem ground breaking composition wise but it was pretty impressive technique wise and was super groovy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2015 7:05:47

BarkellWH

Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

I think you may has misinterpreted my post BIll, I didn't make any judgment of Jeronimo's performance and did not say I thought it was superior in any way to that of Sabicas, in fact I would prefer some of Sabicas' Zambras also.

My apologies, Blondie#2. I mistakenly read too much into your post. Thanks for giving me an azimuth check.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2015 9:05:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to chester)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

abstract stuff

Sorry but what exactly are you guys talking about when you say abstract?

Maybe I have the best ears ever, but most of Maya's video was pretty melodic. Definitely very rhythmic, and pretty basic harmonically.

There's nothing progressive (or what you're referring to as 'modern') about it - no modulations, no odd time signatures. Everything is straightforward.

The intro is a bit 'ethereal' and 'meditative' but it's meant for you (or him) to get into a certain mood and pretty standard.

Nothing groundbreaking, but definitely enjoyable...

This type of "form" in flamenco guitar rep is the very gypsy nod toward the arabic influence (to relate to another thread). The difference, again here, is indeed traditional vs modern, and once again it is RHYTHMIC...Sabicas uses a monotonous two beat bass drone with very on the beat type phrasing, and Jeronimo is clearly using lots of synchopation to update the otherwise aniquated style. Otherwise I agree that it is not "abstract" necessarily.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2015 15:44:42

JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Stu)

Jeronimo has some insane skills, but I've never enjoyed his composition. His ideas might start out good but just fizzle out and then he's on to an unconnected idea and lost my excitement. Doesn't mean it's he's wrong, I just think he's not with the guys in his class of skill.

I think you can be really modern and still have amazing composition skills. Like Diego Morao, his stuff (not his fathers and uncles)sounds like the latest style today which probably sounds like PDL did to my grandpaw "just a bunch of random notes" , but somehow he makes it work and it's brain candy. While other guys, just can't develop an idea and keep it going even though they have everything else. So is it ultra modern, or just a scattered paint on a canvas? Depends on the state of the art.

And to my wife, Diego del Morao sounds like a bunch of confusion, but A Bulerias like Impetu she can hear. If she doesn't shape up soon she's out

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2015 17:05:17