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Morante

 

Posts: 2222
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

Cultura 

Un extracto de “Escrito con tiza, Memorias de Pepe Manteca”

Mi gran amigo Pepe es matador de toros y regente de la mejor taberna de embutidos y ambiente de La Viña.

“El gallo estaba muy ligado con el cante y con el toro desde antiguamente.Miguez Báez El Litri, sin ir más lejos, era un gran sficionado. En casa delos Ortega Domínguez, no te quiero decir, los han criado, los han vendido y los han regalado. El gallero de Luis Miguel Dominguín era era José Montero de Córdoba. Manolo Caracol iba siempre a un reñidero que había en Sevilla, en la Calle María Coronel, que un0 de los más cálebres del mundo. De allí salió Rafael Ortega Domínguez de ver una pelea de un gallo suyo y por poco llega tarde a torear. Yo he estado muy unido a eso.”

El que no entiende la cultura compleja de Andalucía (no hace falta aguantarla) no puede ser aficionado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 16:46:40
 
changue

 

Posts: 187
Joined: Aug. 31 2010
From: London

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

Hombre, estoy de acuerdo pero hablar de toritos ya esta prohibido aqui. Parece que formamos una minoria. Yo, por ejemplo, pienso que sin hablar por lo memos un poquitin de castellano no se puede llamarse aficionado. Desgraciadamente la mayoria no vean la lengua como algo importante. No lo entiendo. No saben lo que estan perdiendo.

Ay en Madrid murio Granero
y en Sevilla Valerito
y en Talavera la Reina
mato un toro a Joselito
el menor de la Gabriela

Muy interesante lo de Caracol y los gallos.

Changue
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 19:24:42
 
Escribano

Posts: 6424
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Cultura (in reply to changue

To understand Andalucía would take a lifetime. Speaking a little Spanish is nice. Bullfighting is controversial. However none are prerequisites to appreciating flamenco, ser un aficionado, to be a fan. If they were, this would be a very, very quiet forum and it would a dead art.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 20:53:28
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Cultura (in reply to changue

quote:

Hombre, estoy de acuerdo pero hablar de toritos ya esta prohibido aqui. Parece que formamos una minoria. Yo, por ejemplo, pienso que sin hablar por lo memos un poquitin de castellano no se puede llamarse aficionado.


In the first place, speaking about the corrida is not prohibited here. There are different opinions on the subject, but the topic is not prohibited. In the second place, although I speak Spanish, it is not necessary to do so in order to be a flamenco aficionado, any more than it is necessary to speak Italian in order to appreciate opera, or to speak German in order to appreciate Beethoven and Mozart.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 22:27:25
 
changue

 

Posts: 187
Joined: Aug. 31 2010
From: London

RE: Cultura (in reply to BarkellWH

In August 2014 a "Toros and Flamenco" thread was locked by Escribano with something like, "how often do we have to go around this loop... this thread is now locked." This gave me the impression that further comment on toros was unwelcome.

As to language, I agree that you can get a great deal from flamenco without knowledge of the language but the rewards are, in my opinion, very much greater wih at least some familiarity with it.

Changue
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 7:17:36
 
Thomas

Posts: 225
Joined: Oct. 5 2005
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to changue

quote:

As to language, I agree that you can get a great deal from flamenco without knowledge of the language but the rewards are, in my opinion, very much greater wih at least some familiarity with it.


in my opinion it gets ridiculous when english native speakers post in spanish just to demonstrate their "deep and pure" knowledge of flamenco...not to speak about the obstrusive and constant posting of that corrida thing

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Cuadro Sur Guitar Trio
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 8:19:52
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1750
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Cultura (in reply to changue

As a little boy, I got tears in my eyes when I heared opera. Especially Beniamino Gigli.
His voice moves me directly.
I am from Holland and do not understand one word of italian.

The same happens with some flamenco singers. I understand a bit of spanish, and it is nice to know where they sing about, but do not underrest the power of the non "verbal" communication from a good singer.
It goes without words straight in your heart......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 8:26:26
 
Escribano

Posts: 6424
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Cultura (in reply to changue

quote:

In August 2014 a "Toros and Flamenco" thread was locked by Escribano with something like, "how often do we have to go around this loop... this thread is now locked." This gave me the impression that further comment on toros was unwelcome.


It is a controversial and emotionally divisive topic, albeit with an acknowledged cultural relationship to flamenco. I have always kept my opinions pretty quiet on the matter but I do not welcome the subject going around and around with no resolution from either side.

I also do not care much for posts in Spanish from native English speakers. It reeks of a coterie.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 11:36:50
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
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RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

Oh boy, this is one of "those" threads
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 11:53:12
 
changue

 

Posts: 187
Joined: Aug. 31 2010
From: London

RE: Cultura (in reply to Escribano

I am happy to take Escribano's "coterie" point.
Bernd may be surprised to learn that I also have some sympathy with his point of view. What was uppermost in my mind was the excellent link to an interview, posted last week, I think, with Paco interiewed by Maria Zabay. Paco came out with some amazing stuff, for example, saying to the journalist, "you have no idea how difficutlt it is to play the guitar!" I made the assumption, I'm afraid to say, that this post gained little attention because of the language barrier and I thought that was a pity.

Changue
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 11:58:32
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Cultura (in reply to Thomas

quote:

in my opinion it gets ridiculous when english native speakers post in spanish just to demonstrate their "deep and pure" knowledge of flamenco...not to speak about the obstrusive and constant posting of that corrida thing.


I could not agree with you more, Thomas. I was born and grew up in Arizona; my mother lived in Mexico the first 16 years of her life; I speak Spanish; I have attended bullfights ("corridas"); and one of the books I read at a young age was Ernest Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon," about the art, practice, and culture of bull-fighting, and it introduced me to the greats: Manolete, Belmonte, and others.

I can honestly state that my love for, and appreciation of, flamenco in all its forms (cante, guitar, and dance) was neither a product of nor influenced by any of my above-cited experiences. Without any of those experiences I would have come to understand and appreciate flamenco every bit as much as I do now. And lest anyone suggest that such experiences have had a subliminal effect on my appreciation of flamenco, I guarantee he would be wrong.

That there are some in Spain who link flamenco with the bull-fight is fine, but that one must understand the link in order to appreciate flamenco is an opinion only. That there are native English speakers who post in Spanish and suggest that one must speak Spanish and understand the bullfight in order to, as you suggest, have a "deep and pure knowledge of flamenco" is, again as you suggest, "ridiculous." Moreover, it reveals an attempt to establish one's self as superior in knowledge to those lesser beings who don't possess the required attributes. It is a form of self-flattery.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 12:03:05
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Morante

[Deleted by Admins]

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 12:15:22
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

In my opinion, to appreciate flamenco all you need is to appreciate flamenco.


Many fans of the bullfighting tradition here in Portugal, do they have to know anything about flamenco in order to appreciate bullfighting?

I would say that 95% of them don't give a poop about flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 13:34:04
 
Escribano

Posts: 6424
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Cultura (in reply to Guest

If we turn the proposition around a little - the French (amongst many others) love the blues and sing it in their own language. They are not all black, certainly not from the Delta or Chicago and don't speak much English. I assume the Spanish sing the blues in Spanish too. I know the Mexicans do - as well as rock, jazz etc.

In fact, there are localised versions of many genres. Folk, rap, opera, soul, hip hop....

So this begs the question, do we know of anyone singing flamenco in English or any other language except Spanish? Is this impossible, is it sacrilege or could it help the genre become better known in the mainstream?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 15:03:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15035
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultura (in reply to changue

quote:

ORIGINAL: changue

I am happy to take Escribano's "coterie" point.
Bernd may be surprised to learn that I also have some sympathy with his point of view. What was uppermost in my mind was the excellent link to an interview, posted last week, I think, with Paco interiewed by Maria Zabay. Paco came out with some amazing stuff, for example, saying to the journalist, "you have no idea how difficutlt it is to play the guitar!" I made the assumption, I'm afraid to say, that this post gained little attention because of the language barrier and I thought that was a pity.

Changue



Or perhaps juan didn't notice that it had been posted and discussed in detail long ago?

This business of spanish speakers having one over on english speakers is true to a degree. But only in the sense it is extremely disrespectful to the culture of flamenco to deny the importance of the language, the food, the bull stuff (in all senses of that term), sure the macho gallo cock fighting thing. But overall this place is for people to share and learn, not strut the big gallo that you have the bigger vocabulary in spanish. Instead of being the cock crowing that folks might not have understood an interview...how about helping people with a translation?

IN the end it is also con mucho razon, those claiming it is MORE important to understand the meaning behind the music of "ay ay ay...." and compas, than the translation of the letra... which in specfic cases might not even have true meaning or relevance to any present generation cantaores, anyway.

It is not an excuse to NOT TRY to learn the language and go deeper, but some positivity and education vs condescension would better suite the foro in this regard.

It would behoove the administration to actually set up a section for learning spanish, specifically andalu and flamenco terminology where the smarty pant phd's with "spanish 14" under the belt, can go nuts with their vocab whilst helping all the english speakers.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 15:48:21
 
changue

 

Posts: 187
Joined: Aug. 31 2010
From: London

RE: Cultura (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Instead of being the cock crowing that folks might not have understood an interview...how about helping people with a translation?


I think that's a bit harsh. I was making an observation on the relevance of the language rather than, as you put it, crowing in the manner of a cock. Nonetheless you make a good point that "this place is to share and to learn." For the avoidance of doubt I have no need to "strut the big gallo."

CH
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 16:13:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15035
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultura (in reply to changue

quote:

ORIGINAL: changue

quote:

Instead of being the cock crowing that folks might not have understood an interview...how about helping people with a translation?


I think that's a bit harsh. I was making an observation on the relevance of the language rather than, as you put it, crowing in the manner of a cock. Nonetheless you make a good point that "this place is to share and to learn." For the avoidance of doubt I have no need to "strut the big gallo."

CH


I know it was harsh..but was trying to be cute relating to Morante's post.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 16:19:45
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ricardo

[Deleted by Admins]

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 19:33:08
 
Thomas

Posts: 225
Joined: Oct. 5 2005
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:




Many fans of the bullfighting tradition here in Portugal, do they have to know anything about flamenco in order to appreciate bullfighting?

.


funny and true reverse argument !

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TeFau Studio Thomas Vogt
Cuadro Sur Guitar Trio
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2015 19:49:12
 
aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Cultura (in reply to Escribano

I read somewhere about flamenco singing in Japanese but I can't find the source to back that up.

Spanish is one of the few languages that has all it's syllables of equal length - I don't think many other languages would work even from a purely rhythmic perspective. On top of that a language is tied to a specific culture, and is ultimately untranslatable, so a letra in another language will be a big jump away from the 'lineage' of a particular palo ...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2015 9:19:58
Guest

RE: Cultura (in reply to aloysius

quote:

I read somewhere about flamenco singing in Japanese but I can't find the source to back that up.

One of the Gendai transcription books i have has a Fandangos with words/melody in Japanese...its out there in print at least

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2015 10:53:36
 
bicharraco

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 19 2015
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

Amen Morante!!!!

Yo soy español (de la Baja Andalucía, cuna del flamenco) y te aplaudo con las orejas.

Leo este foro como medio de mejorar mi inglés leyendo cosas que me interesen (aunque os entiendo perfectamente no me siento capacitado para escribir en un inglés culto, lo siento), y he de decir que tu y Ricardo sois los dos únicos extranjeros que habeis capturado la esencia de la cultura flamenca y andaluza.

Un saludo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 11:03:40
 
bicharraco

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 19 2015
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

Dos apuntes que quiero hacer:

"Se puede entender el Flamenco sin conocer la cultura de la cual procede, del mismo modo que se puede entender a Mozart sin necesidad de ser centro-europeo".

No es lo mismo. La música clásica es un estilo culto y cosmopolíta generado en torno a músicos patrocinados por las casas reales. Ya en el siglo XVIII, los músicos italianos iban a Alemania, los alemanes a Inglaterra e incluso había músicos españoles en Rusia al servicio de los zares.

El flamenco en cambio nace de la endogamia y el aislamiento cultural en una región muy concreta y con fuertes peculiaridades. La música clásica es un lenguajes musical universal, el flamenco es muy local.

Un forero portugués dice que no es necesario entender la cultura taurina para ser flamenco, que en su país hay toros y no flamenco.

Tiene razón, pero no es la cultura taurina en si, sino la forma de vivirla, que es diferente.

Ejemplo: Portugal y Andalucía son católicas, pero la forma de vivir la religiosidad popular es muy diferente en ambos territorios.

El Rocio o La Madrugá a los portugueses les parecen alienígenas, y mira si estamos cerca y tenemos un sustrato cultural común!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 11:12:16
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

I think the most important think is to understand that people who fake "smaller interests" (bullfighting for instance) in order to appear "truer" regarding the main interest (flamenco) are called Snobs.


I eat pizza without cheese, drink tea after it's dead cold and short espresso coffee with no sugar. Just because most people eat pizza with cheese, hot tea with sugar and coffee with sugar.. does that mean I should force myself to do it like the majority in order to "experience the full thing"?



I bet some people in this forum would be willing to go live in a cave and work in the mines with the idea that it would give them a "truer" thumb sound.


Whatever belief floats your boat is fine by me but please, keep the snobbery out of here.


(This is post isn't aimed at anyone in particular)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 12:55:47
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2222
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to bicharraco

Hola bicharraco

LLevo 15 años en Cádiz, pero llevo muchos más años visitando España. Soy aficionado de los toros desde los años 70, antes de ser aficionado de flamenco. He recorrido España y me encuentro en mi casa en Cádiz. Mi mujer es de la sierra y no habla inglés. Su familia es mi familia.

En este foro de guitarra, estoy criticado y insultado por mis opiniones. Tu puede sufrir tambien. Pero recuerdo muy bien la primera vez que acompañé a un cantaor, Paco Reyes de Cádiz, por Alegrías. Paco se llama Paco Loco por su forma de vivir y tiene un compás (como dice Jesulín), en dos palabras, im-presionante! Después, Paco me dijó "Seán, tienes compás y sabes tocar, pero lo que ha tocado no es alegrías".

Paco es intimo amigo mío y hablaba de soniquete. Tenía toda la razón. Ahora si, lo tengo!

Donde vives? Pasas alguna vez por La Tacita de Plata?

Morante (de la Puebla)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 15:20:44
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

The guy says he comes here to read english and you write in spanish that people here criticize and insult you for your opinions?

That was funny
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 16:01:35
 
bicharraco

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 19 2015
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

Sr. Martins, desde mi punto de vista, snob es quien dice "Soy vegano y flamenco" y cosas similares. Ser taurino y flamenco es la norma.

Morante: yo soy de Chiclana de la Frontera.

Un saludo a los dos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 16:13:38
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to bicharraco

This reminds of the "you have to be born a gitano..like Paco and Vicente" thing.

To me the ability to enjoy flamenco has very little to do with "being flamenco" (whatever that really means).

Might as well add that one has to be heterossexual to be a ladiesman like Ricky Martin.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 16:43:29
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

Having enjoyed flamenco for some 60 years, and believing that I appreciated it as it deserved, I hold with Sr. Martins that one can do so without necessarily being fluent in Spanish, let alone Andalu. Or being interested in the alleged mystique of the bullfight--in fact I just finished reading Gerald Howson's views on Spanish bullfighting, as expressed in The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay, yet Howson is widely held to have been somewhat knowledgeable about flamenco. And it seems to me that the Andalusia of 2015, and the flamenco of 2015, are a far cry from the era of Manuel Torres, Pastora Pavón, and Aurelio, so exactly what is being claimed, pro or contra?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 17:30:18
 
Thomas

Posts: 225
Joined: Oct. 5 2005
 

RE: Cultura (in reply to Morante

quote:

.

En este foro de guitarra, estoy criticado y insultado por mis opiniones.


tu no estas criticado ni mucho menos insultado por tus opiniones.....estas criticado por tu actitud esnob que para mi en efecto es ridicula

_____________________________

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Cuadro Sur Guitar Trio
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2015 19:12:29
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