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RE: What do people think flamenco is ?   You are logged in as Guest
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El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner

Runner .....
: ''"yes..easing them in..that is why at my recent performance I played a happy happy sevillanas and a rumba...anything else would have been too much..I think..." ''

you should have just copied the very next sentence after that ....


'''and yet lots of people liked it and would listen to more .'''

the all important ''and yet '' it means i was wrong basically ... I chose what i thought they would like ... as it happens . i also like the 2 tunes i chose ..

and yet ,, if I had played any other 2 tunes , the result would have been similar ..as long as i liked them and that fact was reflected in my playing and interpretation ...


as Morante just said .."People" should not be underestimated... and quite rightly so

This has kinda came full circle now for me as i am back at my recent performance ,, I overthought it a bit and underestimated people ..
all i really had to do was play what I liked .. after all ...I am 'people' too ...
sure it has to be played well and with conviction and as much 'flamenqueria as you can muster ...

But I see no reason now why it couldnt have a been a Bulerias and a Tarantos ...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2015 23:44:09
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

Sr. martins ... the phrase'' music of the people '' means music of the ordinary common man ..the masses .., the worker .. the people not born into a higher class perhaps ..


That was understood, that's why I answered the way I did as I believe that the distinction you're making serves no purpose. Music that once was only heard by wealthy people can nowadays be heard by anyone and that doesn't make any difference to the music itself or the subjectivity regarding musical enjoyment... which lead to my comment about what good music is.


Maybe you should show us how to measure "musical goodness".


If you think flamenco needs to be "saved" or explained to people, maybe you should start by being yourself open to the thousands of genres that you're not aware of. I assure you there will be fans willing to explain to you what each genre is all about, who are the real artists, the fakers, etc.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 11 2015 23:48:25
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

Morante compressed the presentation into a single night, but still started light and progressed through to heavy. What if they had started with Moneo and Agujetas, audio only, and said, when asked, "Yes, that's flamenco".? I will be the first to affirm that Agujetas especially has a serious coolness vibe going due to his fierce demeanor, which will commend him to many who first see him. He always reminds me of a smaller but even more intimidating version of Jack Palance--"Who am I? I Am Attila!!". Also, are the people at the University The People? Or are they University people?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 0:43:18
 
timoteo

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

Please, don't make the mistake of thinking that Flamenco is special in this regard.

Rhetorical question: Who really knows the difference between Techno, House, and Trance music? Let alone can differentiate between the many sub-genres of each?

Is an aficionado of "Psychedelic trance" really justified in treating you as an idiot because you thought an "Acid trace" tune or even a "Deep house" tune was part of his/her genre?

Well, that's what you're doing when you disparage people who can't distinguish a liviana from a serrana, or a solea por medio from a solea por bulerias, or even a Jesse Cook tune from flamenco.

Seriously, just because flamenco isn't the end-all and be-all for everyone doesn't mean that most people are idiots or incapable of learning the differences. It simply means that in life there is endless variety and we each have to pick and choose what we devote our time and being to learning. Not everyone will rate flamenco to be as important is it is to you or me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 5:49:22
 
timoteo

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to timoteo

Oh, and Kiko, to answer your original question (and yes, there are people here who do read and understand your original question):

I have only received one authentic response to this question. While driving the logging roads in the wilderness around Mt Rainier, I was talking to a good friend about what flamenco meant to me. He mentioned that he liked Jesse Cook a lot. After a pause, my response was that Jesse Cook is talented and popular, but he's not what flamencos consider flamenco. We were about 6 hours away from returning to civilization (defined as that region within cell phone reception), so I played one of my traditional flamenco (cante) CDs for him on the drive back. He was polite enough to complement my taste in music, but I know he still likes Jesse Cook and I respect his opinions even though they don't agree with my own.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 6:02:11
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner

quote:

Also, are the people at the University The People? Or are they University people?


Extramural classes are offered to any member of the gereral public who wants to come along. Usually held in the evening, for people who work during the day. There is quite a tradition for people with little formal training to attend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 11:05:41
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Morante

Morante, you must have been very pleased with how the introductory course was received. Granted that the people who came were predisposed to learn something about flamenco, it seems that you were able to accomplish something that all could be happy with, as teachers and learners. It could set a pattern for others to follow. Are there plans to again offer the course? I should think that word of mouth alone would guarantee repeat and increasing attendance. More Power To You!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 12:22:24
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner

quote:

Are there plans to again offer the course?


Sadly, no. I abandoned ship and went to live in Andalucía. John continues to run the Peña, which is extraordinaly successful (even the great John Walsh visits) and they have regular shows which attract new people. We always had a good dancer and sometimes a singer. Because the Spanish Professor liked theatre, we always worked with him in the annual Festival and the flamenco always was a sell out.

But life changes
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 15:20:04
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Morante

yes Sr Martins as i said .. ''it was the music of the people '' was meaning .. in the past .. meaning the history of the music ....it was ..

Nowadays , obviously , it doesn't apply ..
A lot of folk music was like that ...hence folk , meaning people .. music
the point was that it is not by design , meant to be unaccessable /..

Why should I , or anyone show ..how to measure "musical goodness".? it would never happen ...
I dont even know what musical goodness means.. or is .. as was mentioned lots of times by others and me ,, if you like it ...it good ,.
I am at a loss for what your getting at ...never mind ...

And I dont think flamenco needs to be "saved" or explained to people, i dont know where that came from , so cannot offer any explanation at all ...Perhaps you have misinterpreted some earlier post


Having gone around full circle now I feel the thread drawing to a close ..
I was re-reading a bit of this and find that Morante earlier kind of summed the whole thing up in his phrase..
'''"People" should not be underestimated.'''
I think this is very true .. if only I had said that instead ....

In short .. people like music .. some bits more than others .. some songs more than others .. and to be honest It's a mystery as to why ..
Most of us will like bits of all kinds of music ,, and also unlike bits of all types of music .. personal choice rules ...
Its value seems to be psychological .. it can make you feel better ..happier ..

I dont think we will ever know when music started ..or the first instruments ..the voice i guess ..
But since that time we have been messing about with it and its so good, in all its forms , that it stays with us .
i'm not sure what its main function is , but we cant stay away from it .. its all over ..
it defines cultures , tells histories , forms part of cultural gatherings and identities ..

Wether we study it or just listen to some CDs we like .. people like music .. in its many forms .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 19:38:31
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

I thought (and probably many others) that this was about "what people think flamenco is", which inevitably always touches the subject of "what they're missing out by not knowing what it really is".

In the end I get the feeling that this was a masturbatory thread. Might be wrong though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 19:58:10
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins

if you feel very strongly about 'what people might be missing '
I suggest you start a thread for yourself whereupon you can discuss it , or any other related subject, among any like minded members who may care to enter into it .

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 21:38:12
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

if you feel very strongly about 'what people might be missing '


There's no need for that, the thread already went through that, then out, in again... the only thing Iam not understanding is "your point". It looks like you're shooting from every front on a topic that supposedly was about what others think.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 21:50:01
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

In the end I get the feeling that this was a masturbatory thread.
Might be wrong though.


As usual you are wrong. There were no issues in this thread until you created them.

Why participate in this forum--let alone this thread--if that's what you think?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 22:11:37
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

PG you should get out and see come Chekov.

And stop trying to jump on other peoples bandwagons, it is becoming undignified.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 22:16:32
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

In the end I get the feeling that this was a masturbatory thread.



So ,with a well needed restpite in place from such a pained subject, requiring intensely sustained public interrogation...real ''in the field'', journalistic valour, I again found myself facing the high street hoard....what would this new day bring?

Subject four......Troy Milanzo from Cheddar Gorge, Mendip Hills ,Somerset.......maker of cheese and designer of rolling pins??....
Answer given.......Well son your talking to the right man. When I'm not day jobbing,or naked cage fighting at Franks Bar and Salon, I'm playing Cajon.....there's nothing I like more than to beat one out of an evening.....keeps me wrists flexed and my palms receptive if ya get my drift......?

Subject five......Frank Pinata from Rodney 'Stroke' near Cheddar,Mendip Hills, Somerset ........bar and salon owner also known for award winning home grown champion marrows.
Answer given......don't tell me, you've been talking to that old t osser Troy haven't ya.....well its not true .....I kept it covered at all times and it was only three thrapps and I was done. I kept in time with the cajon though and the officer said the judge may be lenient .......????

Subject six......Terrance Bishop from Wookey Hole Somerset.....artisan dildo maker and polisher of bells.
Answer given.......get off my land ,I've just given my twelve bore a good sand blasting and by god I'm not afraid to let you have it!!! ...... At this point I decided to beat a hasty retreat back to my hotel.

Good luck with deciphering these findings....but they may too,sit well with the rest!

Best

pink

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 22:16:38
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

"What we've got here is...failure to communicate!" Strother Martin, Cool Hand Luke
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 22:21:21
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner

quote:

ORIGINAL: runner

Cool Hand Luke



no man can eat 50 eggs: https://youtu.be/sAkzEusQLBw

Best


pink

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 22:25:24
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

Please, don't make the mistake of thinking that Flamenco is special in this regard.

Rhetorical question: Who really knows the difference between Techno, House, and Trance music? Let alone can differentiate between the many sub-genres of each?

Is an aficionado of "Psychedelic trance" really justified in treating you as an idiot because you thought an "Acid trace" tune or even a "Deep house" tune was part of his/her genre?

Well, that's what you're doing when you disparage people who can't distinguish a liviana from a serrana, or a solea por medio from a solea por bulerias, or even a Jesse Cook tune from flamenco.

Seriously, just because flamenco isn't the end-all and be-all for everyone doesn't mean that most people are idiots or incapable of learning the differences. It simply means that in life there is endless variety and we each have to pick and choose what we devote our time and being to learning. Not everyone will rate flamenco to be as important is it is to you or me.


This is exactly what I was trying to say two posts before this one by Timoteo.. but the subject matter on this topic seems to be a shape shifter.


The topic had potential but then it choked itself to death

Now it looks like "Me live pt.2: What do you think I should be thinking regarding people's thoughts"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 12 2015 22:35:09
 
qzack

 

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

Oh, common folk in my place (Indonesia) were like don't even know what it is hahaha i roughly believe it's about 90% of the people and the rest 10% are either guitarist or hardcore music enthusiaist who know what the word means and usually originated in big cities that has acceptable access quality to internet and home to a vast growing number of musician. But from the rest 10% think most of them believes that Flamenco is a spanishy mexican style where you can just simply play E minor harmonic scales along with an accompaniment of rythm guitar playing E, F, G kind of progression.

Seriously, if you play at least rumba, the most common thing I heard is... "oh cool, mexican guitar right? Sounds like what antonio banderas was playing in the movie..."
When you start playing stuff like solea, seguiriya, and bulerias they will think your playing sounds like an arabic tunes.

About the dance, people still know flamenco is one of the style but.... often mistakenly consider Every. Single. Dance that looks spanishy to be flamenco. Most often is the Argentinian Tango that is considered too as flamenco to them

One thing also, is that I often heard that they think flamenco is kinda sophisticated and hard to understand even some say it is boring. Especially the singing. They told me like why do they have to scream like that? Nice power, but still its not enjoyable, and you know what? Some of them think that the singing sounds like athan (muslim call for prayers) or quran reciting.

Even just today, I played gitano de lucia in a park and there's a guy who listened to then after I finished, he approached me started to ask me to play common pop songs, reggae or alike instead. Telling me that i play better than the rest folk who just can play simple chords but spending my time playing boring music. Not to mention there's one guy too who was the head of indonesian rythm foundation (musician NGO but not really that famous) told me that flamenco will be considered as a rubbish in Indonesia and he also asked me to just go promote flamenco abroad where people is more tolerant to the genre
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 10:46:15
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to qzack

Hello, Qzack. Good to hear from someone in Indonesia. I lived and worked for four years in Indonesia, and for four years in Malaysia as well. I agree that flamenco is almost a totally foreign and largely unknown genre, particularly in Indonesia, but in Malaysia as well, although it appears to be a bit better known among a small group in Kuala Lumpur. There was, and presumably still is, a relatively active (though not large) community of flamenco aficionados in Singapore.

I can see where cante flamenco sounds vaguely like the Azan to the unsophisticated ear. Of course, it does not follow the melodic pattern of the Azan at all, but it bears a slight resemblance due to the Moorish influence.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 11:35:06
 
qzack

 

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to BarkellWH

Hi BarkellWH
I agree it is totally foreign! They even wonder how did i know and how come i can love a genre that most people in my place know nothing about it.

Oh wow no wonder you can still find Francisco Navarro guitars and Manuel Rodriguez Flamenco guitars in Singapore. I searched through some of Singaporean music store websites

But still, Rumba plays an introductory role to the genre where it could actually draw people to interest. Everytime, whenever they asked me to play it's always have to be rumba.. Most often it has to be Vicente's Tres Notas Para Decir Te Quiero
or gypsy kings.

In 2013, (cmiiw) there's this one talent show in Indonesia that got one guy who declares himself as a flamenco player. Altough during that time the show is not that hyped as the first and the second season but it generates discussion and topic in the social media alone at least a few about flamenco. The only drawback and the sad thing is that at the show he play something like rumba-kind-of-thing he composed and announced it as Bulerias because the rythmic characteristic is happy etc and nobody seems to care but small communities in Surabaya and Jakarta. After he got eliminated, the discussion about flamenco is barely could find anywhere really

The only well-known skillful flamenco guitarist among flamenco aficionados who play the actual genre is this guy who studied it in Jerez for 3 months named Dhimas Ramadhan. He seldom making any videos up until now but soon he will launch his flamenco album. Other than him are the guys who taught by him which i don't know who they are hahaha but we're pretty much unorganized, doesn't have any community gathering and don't really know if anybody likes the same genre out there in the whole country

I watched him play live in a spanish restaurant somewhere in Jakarta. When he played Bulerias and Taranta, barely anybody pay any attention but when he unleashed tangos and rumba aaaaaaannnnddddd everybody start paying attention and dancing hahaha that's how my people see... flamenco?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2015 13:31:17
 
bicharraco

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 19 2015
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

No entiendo porque pensáis que la gente de otros países debe tener nociones de lo que es el flamenco. Aquí en España, la mayoría de la gente lo confunde con la techno rumba o la canción andaluza. Por no mencionar que, por ejemplo, aquí el personal no tiene ni idea de como es la música pongamos de Irlanda.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2015 10:41:37
 
flamencoLVR

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 27 2015
 

RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko

I have liked flamenco guitar music since the 60's but have learned more about it and the dance and singing in the last few years perusing You Tube and internet information. Why should we care what "people" think about flamenco or any other form of music?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2015 18:07:19
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