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RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Leñador)
The "words" argument is the worst... I remember being a kid, not caring about music and already having difficulty to understand why people would say "I don't understand foreign languages so I can't say if I like the music".
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Kiko
dont ask people who you already think .. may have an opinion .. ask a random person ..someone unexpected
Subject one: Mrs T from Gorleston........unemployed dog handler and mother of 15. Answer given....''its a fekkin pink bird innit, naw t wat off yer ar#hole''
Subject two: Gerald from Twickenham.......holidaying in Gorleston.......''i must say what makes me rumble in the loins is the way those little minxes use those castanets,oh its sooo.....'' subject started to dribble uncontrollably at this point and I chose to terminate the interview fearing a seizure (not mine)
Subject three: Rodrigo,Miguel Angel Amigo(also known as Bob) from Acocks Green, Birmingham .......delivering to "Spar" in Gorleston......."Are ya alright chuckie egg"......? ( waste of fekkin time !!)
My conclusion at this point is to perhaps start again tomorrow........
Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
A theater full of people in Austin probably think Tomatito's latest beeg chó is flamenco. Three guitars, amplified to rock 'n roll level, an amplified cajon, three singers singing completely rehearsed ironed-out cante into the P.A. system, super "modern" harmony from the star.
No doubt it is flamenco, of the show biz modern day type.
The part that moved me was Paloma Fantova's dancing. She reminded me of Carmen Amaya, whose last performances in New York I saw in 1962. But they only let Fantova do two numbers. Tomatito's management cautioned the local promoters not to overshadow him with praise for the dancer.
RNJ
Well, I'll go out on a limb, but I thought the dancer in Tomatito's group this past year was pretty special.
Ah, after reading more of the thread... I like Tomatito's very sparce and open and jazz-inflected take on the basic idiom, and I thought the dancer was really, really good.
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to pink)
There's nothing wrong with people having little knowledge about something you're passionate about but it makes me want to chop off their heads when I try to show them there's more to it and they act like "generic know it alls". This can happen with any subject but it's pretty annoying when you've been interested in music and studying/playing for a few decades and then some "specialist" who listens to radio twice a week tries to argue with you.
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Just get a few stooges to convince them that you are the one and only expert and then flamenco will be, for them, whatever you say it is.
People can be 'educated' pretty easily when you do their thinking for them but you are going to need a few shills. Not that you need to lie necessarily, but a few shills will definitely be a big help whether it be a chat show host reading off a press release or a twitter campaign or some other internet shenanigans.
So in brief Kiko I agree, we here have neither the right to be conceited nor condescending. When we bemoan the lack of independent thinking and independent listening and research amongst the general public we should be careful to include ourselves. Otherwise we might seem foolish to outsiders.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to pink)
pink well there you go ... at last we seem to have Gorleston sorted out .... so thats a step in the right direction ... not sure where it is though or if it is pronounced 'GaullStone '...?? However, this place shall now be known as the town that can be compared to all others in relation to all things flamenco ....
like the side by side discussion on Tomatitos dancer .. good or bad ..? lets just ask GaulStone to settle the dispute .. works for me ......
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
I just don't think we need to be too concerned about what the public thinks flamenco is or is about. And I certainly don't think it is our job to "educate" the public. If someone were to approach me and request information on flamenco and its history, I would be glad to oblige. But the average person who might find flamenco "exotic" and different probably does not want to delve too deeply into it. And I don't view it as my job to force it on him.
I cannot emphasize enough the effect some professional musicians have on public perceptions. I mentioned in my original post in this thread that the Gipsy Kings performed at Wolf Trap Park about three years ago, and their playbill stated: "See them perform fiery flamenco songs like Bamboleo!" And there is Ottmar Liebert calling his stuff "flamenco." And there are others as well. With that kind of nonsense, is it any wonder that the audience who views their performances is misled and comes out thinking they understand something that has been fraudulently fed to them?
If they are interested enough, they will begin researching flamenco on their own. If they are not interested, nothing we say or do will convert them. And I still think that the constant eye-rolling every time we hear "flamingo" gets old, especially after the fifteenth time. Let's put it to bed.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to pink)
quote:
Subject one: Mrs T from Gorleston........unemployed dog handler and mother of 15. Answer given....''its a fekkin pink bird innit, naw t wat off yer ar#hole''
Subject two: Gerald from Twickenham.......holidaying in Gorleston.......''i must say what makes me rumble in the loins is the way those little minxes use those castanets,oh its sooo.....'' subject started to dribble uncontrollably at this point and I chose to terminate the interview fearing a seizure (not mine)
Subject three: Rodrigo,Miguel Angel Amigo(also known as Bob) from Acocks Green, Birmingham .......delivering to "Spar" in Gorleston......."Are ya alright chuckie egg"......? ( waste of fekkin time !!)
My conclusion at this point is to perhaps start again tomorrow........
Best
pink
Spot on Pink Flamingo. Nothing I could add to your fine definition and man on the street interviews.
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Let's put it to bed.
Flamingo as an inside joke, that's fine. Flamingo as a way to imply superior knowledge about something that maybe only you care about... here's a pic of that one
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
Flamingo as an inside joke, that's fine. Flamingo as a way to imply superior knowledge about something that maybe only you care about.
I agree with your observation cited above. It's just that, in my opinion, as an "inside joke" it gets old. And it's easy to flatter one's self by feeling superior in knowing it's flamenco, and not "flamingo," like the poor shmucks are calling it who are sitting in the next row. To feel superior to them and to make light of their ignorance is like shooting fish in a barrel. But that's just my opinion.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
It's just that, in my opinion, as an "inside joke" it gets old.
I meant inside joke as in "fakemenco".
Sometimes if you say that someone plays nuevo/modern flamenco it can mean good non-traditional-old school flamenco but it can also mean elevator music played with a pick over a backing track. With words like flamingo/fakemenco/flamengo (it's a kind of cheese but people think it's the same word for the music ), the distinction is easier and you won't waste your time looking for the album on amazon
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to BarkellWH)
i think the point is missed here ... ah well ..
quote:
I just don't think we need to be too concerned about what the public thinks flamenco is or is about. And I certainly don't think it is our job to "educate" the public.
the public ....you dont have to be concerned ....who do you think listens to you when you play ? The public is us ,,,me ... everyone ....with the possible exception of you , who seems to have detached yourself from 'the public ' to be ....non public .. ..
of course its not your job to educate them ( the public again?) no one asked for that ...its more that what do the people ,,i hate to use the word public again ...the people who are not affiliated with flamenco . think it might be , is or should be .. this information may be of use when you play for 'the public' . as was mentioned earlier Jimi , said you have ease them in ...
how does that work? ...unless you have already decided for them what is best and easier to listen to first and then what could be next .. The problem with that supposition is ...you might be wrong ....
I am increasingly under the impression that it is wrong ,, and the public ,, dont need easing in .. they are ok to just just have it ..bang
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
Kiko, your response to the idea of easing people into a new music seems to be that it "might be wrong". But that is exactly what instruction/education does--it eases people in by starting at the beginning (usually fairly simple/accessible) and then exposes the newcomer to increasing complexity. I can't think of any subject I've become involved with that I picked up by exposure to the cutting edge of ongoing refinement. Fourier Series, anyone? How about the Riemann Hypothesis? No, best to start out with the basics--I can't speak for everyone; there are sure to be exceptions. But easing people in seems the common-sense way, rather than throwing people into the water and hoping that they'll swim.
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner)
quote:
But easing people in seems the common-sense way, rather than throwing people into the water and hoping that they'll swim.
I agree, Runner, but only to the extent that there is a genuine desire to learn about it. I stated in my comment above (with which Kiko took issue): "If someone were to approach me and request information on flamenco and its history, I would be glad to oblige. But the average person who might find flamenco "exotic" and different probably does not want to delve too deeply into it. And I don't view it as my job to force it on him."
I continue to think that flamenco is very much a niche genre, and the vast majority of the public who might enjoy it as background in a restaurant, or even enjoy it as a 30-minute floor show punctuating an evening's convivial atmosphere in a club or pub, probably has no desire to go any further with it. And (with apologies to Kiko) I am not particularly concerned that that is the case. I must emphasize that I am more than willing to discuss flamenco with those who express an interest, but it does not bother me if no interest is expressed.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to BarkellWH)
Bill, we are of one mind on this issue: if people wish to learn more, and I or we are available to help, fine. If not, that's fine too. Were I asked to give a brief series of talks on flamenco, I would definitely avail myself of a graded series of YouTube videos and work my way along until I finally got to Agujetas por siguiriyas, or even a martinete or two. And after the martinetes, some martinis!
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Flamenco as an international musical language is still in its infancy. Nobody thinks it odd to play the Blues if you’re not a native the Mississippi delta but that’s not yet the case with Flamenco. So perhaps some players outside Spain may be more self-conscious about their devotion to flamenco and more concerned about other peoples’ opinions of them and their chosen musical genre. Might we be victims of flamencophobia, ignorance and ridicule? Should we adopt a Spanish stage name and try to be as Andaluz as the ‘real’ flamencos? I doubt if lovers of Bach or the Blues care about what other people think of their taste. If the music's good, most people will enjoy it.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
BarkellWH .. I seem to have alienated you .. not intentionally .. just that we were talking about different things .. or maybe the same thing from a different point of view .. no matter ...
runner ... people have to be eased in ?/ i think that is very wring .. it means someone else decides what you can,, and cant listen to ... crazy ... and the example you gave was really not applicable ..sorry However ,, payaso .. touched on it in his post ..people dont get 'eased' into blues or rock or anything like it ...its just you hear it ... you like it ... or not ...
I cant see a flamenco concert having bouncers on the door '' Sorry mate , theres a lot of seguirillas on tonight .. come back tomorrow for the sevillanas concert ..''
easing people in .. is not only impractical .. its virtually impossible , and would infuriate the vast majority .. I think people would say ..I decide what i listen to , i decide if i like it , i decide if i will listen to more ... and that s how it should be ... was it not with you ? or were you systematically eased in by instruction/education from the beginning with fairly simple/accessible bits and then exposed with increasing complexity.,... good grief man ... I could not put myself so high up or regard others as so low down ...
What my point is ,, is that people do like flamenco .. more than is said here...sure they get bits wrong and have no terminology .. but thats ok .. Flamenco was designed that way .. or rather evolved that way ...
This music wasnt meant to be unacessable ..quite the contrary . it was the music of the people . the lower bit .. for them to have as their own .. and pass on as it went ..
I asked someone the what is flamenco question ...one answer more or less as i remember ....
''Its spanish music isnt it? .. a lot of shouting .. they get together,, sing , clap there hands ,,dance and have a good time ...its ok but i couldnt do it every night ...'''
Thats is it .. a brilliant answer .. from someone who has no idea of flamenco other then bits that turn up on the telly from time to time ... Yet , that is pretty much the essence of it and how it goes ...
Of course you are much deeper into it than that ...which is all well and good .. and thats good too,,, but,,,, no matter how much you study or how long you live in Spain or play or whatever ...if you dont get the bit about having a good time .. the feel good , sharing group thing of flamenco ... then you have missed the point ..
in short .. lots of people like flamenco a lot .. they just dont know it .. but if they hear it they will like it ... mostly .. but of course not all the time just in small doses .. and i think that is just fine ...
Yes Sr Martins ... payaso said '' If the music's good, most people will enjoy it.'' and his sentiments were right ..spot on .....they will .. How long do you spend listening to music you dont like ??
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
This music wasnt meant to be unacessable ..quite the contrary . it was the music of the people .
Is there any music that isn't for people?
quote:
Yes Sr Martins ... payaso said '' If the music's good, most people will enjoy it.'' and his sentiments were right ..spot on .....they will .. How long do you spend listening to music you dont like ??
What is good music? The music you like?
Who is "most people"? Classical music and jazz only take 2% of the market, does that mean it sucks because "most people" don't care for it?
Posts: 3470
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
BarkellWH .. I seem to have alienated you .. not intentionally .. just that we were talking about different things .. or maybe the same thing from a different point of view .. no matter ...
Kiko, You most definitely have not alienated me. I appreciate your ideas, and although we may have different points of view, I never let that get in the way of enjoying discussions with colleagues. After all, it would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on everything.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Sr. martins ... the phrase'' music of the people '' means music of the ordinary common man ..the masses .., the worker .. the people not born into a higher class perhaps .. it does not mean just ''people '
yes, correct ,, good music is just that , music that is good .. its self explanatory .. you like it ...ipsofacto its good ...for you .. easy
most people , i assume is referring to more then half of the people in any particular place where they may be listening to flamenco .. i.e a bar a pub .. whatever ... I cannot comment on where you get the 2% statistics quoted from and do not know if you are referring to a certain country , continent or worldwide .. I also cannot equate that the opposite must apply .. i.e. it sucks , this would be an erroneous conclusion ... I like plenty of classical music .. and in fact was listening to Claude Debussy a few nights ago .. and yet I do not buy it , so i would not show up in your statistics .. along with others i suspect ... I dont think i would like the statistics of record companies to enter into this , it may lead it in the wrong area completely..
guitarbuddha ... I really am not trying to have the high ground or be a humble introvert .. I was putting over the point that many here seem not to give other .. lets call them ..non-afficionados ., for want of a phrase .. a chance to say what they like ..in flamenco of course ... In short .. misrepresentation .. I do hear , on here,, a lot of flamingo this and flamingo that .. and yet in my experience ...the real world isnt like that .. I find a lot of people do like it , given a chance ,, . people are not as ignorant as some make out, I find many are curious and and make a point of asking something or just saying.. they liked it .. The only way I am perhaps being humble is by identifying with these people .. I am after all pretty much one of them .. i can understand what they mean when they talk about . ' spanish music '' in the terms that they use ... ..
I, inversely, from being humble ,often get the impression from some , that there is some type of elitism about learning flamenco . or having all this knowledge and studies that others do not care to have ..
I often in these cases just go back to ,, enjoyment , it sound good .. i like it... and so do others , with or without studies ....
If only i could rise up to the level of being humble ...
(edit .....BarkellWH ....nice post ..just spotted it ...)
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to El Kiko)
El Kiko (I quote): "yes..easing them in..that is why at my recent performance I played a happy happy sevillanas and a rumba...anything else would have been too much..I think..."
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to runner)
quote:
Were I asked to give a brief series of talks on flamenco, I would definitely avail myself of a graded series of YouTube videos and work my way along until I finally got to Agujetas por siguiriyas, or even a martinete or two.
A few years ago, my friend John and I prepared a course for the extramural department of the University, exactly along these lines. 15 people turned up and told us that the University was going to suspend the course as the minimum number was 18.
So we decided to telescope the course and present it all in one night. Beginning with children dancing and clapping in the street, through private family juergas and ending with the martinete from Saura´s Flamenco; Agujetas and Manuel Moneo mano a mano.
When they stopped singing there was silence. Then someone said "wouldn´t like to meet them in a dark alleyway!" Then "is that really flamenco?" I said "yes that is the real thing".
The students then decided as a body to demand that the University allow the course to go ahead and even offered to pay the extra money.
We were allowed to run the course and nobody dropped out, in spite of the initial shock. "People" should not be underestimated.
RE: What do people think flamenco is ? (in reply to Morante)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
quote:
Were I asked to give a brief series of talks on flamenco, I would definitely avail myself of a graded series of YouTube videos and work my way along until I finally got to Agujetas por siguiriyas, or even a martinete or two.
A few years ago, my friend John and I prepared a course for the extramural department of the University, exactly along these lines. 15 people turned up and told us that the University was going to suspend the course as the minimum number was 18.
So we decided to telescope the course and present it all in one night. Beginning with children dancing and clapping in the street, through private family juergas and ending with the martinete from Saura´s Flamenco; Agujetas and Manuel Moneo mano a mano.
When they stopped singing there was silence. Then someone said "wouldn´t like to meet them in a dark alleyway!" Then "is that really flamenco?" I said "yes that is the real thing".
The students then decided as a body to demand that the University allow the course to go ahead and even offered to pay the extra money.
We were allowed to run the course and nobody dropped out, in spite of the initial shock. "People" should not be underestimated.
Just to double check, these were fifteen people who arrived voluntarily at a flamenco appreciation course ?
Several alternative client groups present themselves to my mind.