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RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
Leonard Meyer and others have shown that, as we hear music, we are constantly assessing and attempting to predict what the next note or sequence of notes will be, based on what we are now hearing and have already heard.
Mentioned this example long time ago: I was playing very harmonic music on a superp stereo to youngsters in Near East who were exclusively accustomed to local fiddling of tight variety. They had already been listening to stuff like Simon & Garfunkel without a blink, and when Pink Floyd´s DSOTM was over, they turned to me and said something to the extend of: "To us it is as if there were all wrong notes being hit".
Go figure.
I agree with Bliblablub. There definitly exist such things like bad taste / cluelessness and pseudo creativity / art.
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Ruphus)
Ruphus' post points out that I need to clarify Meyers' timeframe in regard to listening to some specific piece of music: when he says we predict what notes we expect to hear next based on what we are hearing and have heard, Meyers refers to a short timeframe very close to the actual moving sequence of notes in the piece as we listen. Longer-term concerns are more associated with issues of mood and style of the composer, performer, or genre of the piece being listened to. The short-term emphasis is especially potent when we hear a piece for the first time; the longer-term concerns will also always be in play. We may not have heard a particular piece by Brahms, but his propio sello may be well-known to us, and that will also color our reaction.
A striking example of the importance of expectation and prediction in music is the total collapse of both serialism and indeterminacy (aleatoric music) worldwide. Both these musical schools destroyed utterly the ability of a listener to make any prediction at all, ever, about what the next note or note sequence might be. The result was that, except for the tiny handful of composers supported by sinecures in college music departments, people in droves failed to recognize the product as music. They certainly refused to pay to hear such sounds, with the result that Milton Babbitt of Princeton sourly proposed that serialists and their kin compose music only for each other--nobody else was "getting it".
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
Ruphus' post points out that I need to clarify Meyers' timeframe in regard to listening to some specific piece of music: when he says we predict what notes we expect to hear next based on what we are hearing and have heard, Meyers refers to a short timeframe very close to the actual moving sequence of notes in the piece as we listen. Longer-term concerns are more associated with issues of mood and style of the composer, performer, or genre of the piece being listened to. The short-term emphasis is especially potent when we hear a piece for the first time; the longer-term concerns will also always be in play. We may not have heard a particular piece by Brahms, but his propio sello may be well-known to us, and that will also color our reaction.
A striking example of the importance of expectation and prediction in music is the total collapse of both serialism and indeterminacy (aleatoric music) worldwide. Both these musical schools destroyed utterly the ability of a listener to make any prediction at all, ever, about what the next note or note sequence might be. The result was that, except for the tiny handful of composers supported by sinecures in college music departments, people in droves failed to recognize the product as music. They certainly refused to pay to hear such sounds, with the result that Milton Babbitt of Princeton sourly proposed that serialists and their kin compose music only for each other--nobody else was "getting it".
Hope this clarification helps.
Hey Runner. Did you read my post ?
There may be some fundamentally easier number crunching going on in major key music at a wetware level pre conditioning the preference for which can and has been measured in children.
As for inventing a language I think there may be more Klingon speakers than speakers of Esperanto. Perhaps if Babbitt et al had looked more cool like Klingons then more people would speak their language. It worked for System of a Down.
Steven Pinker is at his least irritating when he talks about the spontaneous nature of language generation in his book 'The Language Instinct' although he dismisses any genetic advantage to music making I think that his logic holds with regard to music also. Any language cooked up in a lab is limited by the charisma of its inventors and probably won't outlive them.
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Ruphus)
Oh God help me, the arm chair neurologists are having at music again!
I hope this is not too "jazzy" _ These two posers should be fined and punished for playing jazzy chords and mucking up real flamenco. Complete puffery and diluting of the art !
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner These outcomes can have also the reverse effects: disappointment that the prediction is so "predictable", and joy at the delightful surprise.
Thats me. I'm even sometimes afraid of hearing recordings which I like over and over again because I know I'd get bored pretty soon, so I deliberately resist to do that and change to something else and back again after a while.
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to guitarbuddha)
David, I am loving the Ramachandran lectures! Thanks for putting the reference into your post. Even the Locker Room Boys might find them interesting (in spite of themselves).
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
David, I am loving the Ramachandran lectures!
Thanks !
It's great that you can get them where you are. Lord Reith whose name the lecture series carries is famous for his strong views on the responsiblities implicit in public service broadcasting. So I hoped that they might be available everywhere but wasn't sure.
If you keep watching up to the IQ denial part, basically he is saying science can possibly prove that you guys that don't don't like what I like are in fact in denial about actually liking it, or in fact "stupid".
If you keep watching up to the IQ denial part, basically he is saying science can possibly prove that you guys that don't don't like what I like are in fact in denial about actually liking it, or in fact "stupid".
No he isn't.
I think it is worthwhile taking another listen. He develops his argument starting with animals and empirical experiments showing their susceptibility to prefer abstraction to the real thing. If you focus on how his ideas grow from the experimental data then it is less easy to willfully misinterpret his points.
He is opinionated but also self deprecating and ironic.
Also there is quite the Scottish brogue to his English so I like him.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to estebanana)
love those rasgueados starting 1.15
By the way, I agree with Buddha's Neurologist. Therefore .... everybody here must love Paco. And those who say they don't love his music, they actually love it, its just one of their 25 confused brain parts telling them "don't admit it..don't admit it".
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
He develops his argument starting with animals and empirical experiments showing their susceptibility to prefer abstraction to the real thing.
Right, and his response to the failed experiment on people is that they are LYING. And further, the "lie detector test", so he claims it to be, would in theory prove them to be liars...a testable hypothesis yet to be carried out as he admits.
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
He develops his argument starting with animals and empirical experiments showing their susceptibility to prefer abstraction to the real thing.
Right, and his response to the failed experiment on people is that they are LYING. And further, the "lie detector test", so he claims it to be, would in theory prove them to be liars...a testable hypothesis yet to be carried out as he admits.
I guess there is a fine and moveable line between objectivity and dogma.
For me Ramachandran acknowledges this line and the fact that he sometimes tiptoes and sometimes leaps across it. Often I think that such attempt at humility in the face of the impossibility of objectivity is the very soul of irony.
Some people choose to ignore the line because their dogma is to them objectively true. That is the soul of egotism. And so very often the people who make the line a chasm and stand proudly to one side ignoring it's existance can be convincing to those who find comfort in certainty. But of course these people are quite ridiculous to others.
In the end we all choose our audience as they in turn choose us.
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Ha ha, I know Manuel and the singer Jose Cortes , cool they got to do that with the Paco Cepero!
I know Jose too, but I did not notice him until after I posted this ! The camera pans to him after some time. In the beginning the dancer standing on the end gives the dancer on the floor a look like, Why is she doing the solo?
I know how much you love Cepero and even though you are lying you don't like this video the Neurologist Team knows you really like this.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco and Classical guitar duet (in reply to estebanana)
If I said I didn't like it I would be lying yes...but I didn't. I LIKE it! Ha ha! and the conde is sounding good too. And the baile of miguel is ok but he needs to lose the beer belly hugger...doitsujin knows it's gay.
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