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rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

reminder of how difficult flamenco is 

I see this and I am reminded (although I reminded it of it every day), how flamenco is difficult, and how the professional players are so good.
Sorry for the eyesore at the end.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2014 21:23:11
 
tele

Posts: 1455
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

I see this and I am reminded (although I reminded it of it every day), how flamenco is difficult, and how the professional players are so good.
Sorry for the eyesore at the end.




Yes indeed, even when all of these players are good, it's so easy to hear the mistakes. That's why it really seems like a job for decades, not years, to learn proper flamenco guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2014 21:42:30
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
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From: Canada

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to tele

quote:

Yes indeed, even when all of these players are good, it's so easy to hear the mistakes.


Bingo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2014 23:24:53
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

I played flamenco for 11 years. I practiced a lot, I went to local peñas to play with singers for some years and I was far from where I wanted to be.
But that was not my biggest problem. Besides having problems with a finger, I got tired of the way it was funcioning here where I live (Andalucía). Its a strange mixture of very strict rules and chaos at the same time. And its a lot about practicing a LOT alone and get one chance when you play with singers. They are not going to repeat anything so that you can learn. You are supposed to know already.. They can fart around like they feel like but you have to be able to follow their farting.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 7:53:17
 
Ruphus

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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

They can fart around like they feel like but you have to be able to follow their farting.


Sounds to me like summed up perfectly.
Just like with that point about flamenco being uberly strict on the one hand and to be improvised on the other hand.

And while being familiar with the genre might be meaning to be in a more certain position about which move being appropriate under which circumstances, up from a point things being open / arbitrary again.

To a degree that it could be your reputation that would determine whether there had just been created a new kind of flamenco music, or whether the same thing might have been off the genre.


From there to me personally there appear like three categories.
Traditional flamenco for one.
New flamenco and fakemenco secondly, whilst these maybe can´t always be reliably separated, and maybe actually must not inevitably.

Could even be that the one and only indispensable element in flamenco, namely compas, in the end is not depending on the theoretical interpretation of its correct condition, but simply on it being organic.

Something eventually possible through feeling alone.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 8:43:24
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 438
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Ruphus

I'm reminded how difficult flamenco is every time I pick up a guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 9:29:41
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to tijeretamiel

quote:

I'm reminded how difficult flamenco is every time I pick up a guitar



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 10:06:34
 
tele

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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

When I did accompanying for seguiriyas, bulerias and solea at a local peña nobody was frowning if I did mistakes so in that sense I would say at least that it's relaxed, but I'm sure it depends on what kind of people are around you. But it's really a great feeling doing accompanying for good singers, sort of takes the guitar to another level. Even when there's some mistakes in my accompanying. The point for me in flamenco and guitar is to have fun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I played flamenco for 11 years. I practiced a lot, I went to local peñas to play with singers for some years and I was far from where I wanted to be.
But that was not my biggest problem. Besides having problems with a finger, I got tired of the way it was funcioning here where I live (Andalucía). Its a strange mixture of very strict rules and chaos at the same time. And its a lot about practicing a LOT alone and get one chance when you play with singers. They are not going to repeat anything so that you can learn. You are supposed to know already.. They can fart around like they feel like but you have to be able to follow their farting.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 10:31:06
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:

When I did accompanying for seguiriyas, bulerias and solea at a local peña nobody was frowning if I did mistakes so in that sense I would say at least that it's relaxed, but I'm sure it depends on what kind of people are around you. But it's really a great feeling doing accompanying for good singers, sort of takes the guitar to another level. Even when there's some mistakes in my accompanying. The point for me in flamenco and guitar is to have fun


They didn´t frown at me either. On the contrary, they alway told me how good I was and when I stopped, they kept calling me asking if I would come and play.
But I personally felt that it was frustrating. I sometimes go there, but without a guitar. They are very sweet people.
Besides that, I dont think flamenco is so interesting when it comes to jamming, groups etc. Its, again, stiff and chaotic at the same time. Unless you are into playing rumba solos, which I find to be very boring.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 10:59:44
 
Morante

 

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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

I think that proves that it is not so difficult The cante is hard of course, even for an Andaluz, but for a guiri, or even for an aficionado Andaluz,the guitar is relatively easy: you only need to know a few simple chord progressions and a couple of falsetas. Then, if you have listened to enough cante, you can do a basic accompaniment, without being a great guitarist.

I have accompanied Juan Silva, Nani de Cádiz, Angel Pastor, Rancapino and many others and I can barely play guitar

Problem here is an obsession with guitar instead of an obsession with flamenco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 15:35:49
 
tele

Posts: 1455
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

I think that proves that it is not so difficult The cante is hard of course, even for an Andaluz, but for a guiri, or even for an aficionado Andaluz,the guitar is relatively easy: you only need to know a few simple chord progressions and a couple of falsetas. Then, if you have listened to enough cante, you can do a basic accompaniment, without being a great guitarist.

I have accompanied Juan Silva, Nani de Cádiz, Angel Pastor, Rancapino and many others and I can barely play guitar

Problem here is an obsession with guitar instead of an obsession with flamenco


I don't know I think it's a point of view but not completely true as to play flamenco well and with soul, even a simple falseta can take years to master. Personally I play all types of guitar starting from heavy metal and the flamenco guitar is at least three times harder to play than any other type of guitar music. In theory it might be simple. I like the social aspect of flamenco alot as can be seen even the pro singers can play with non pro guitarists like you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 15:43:22
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3262
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:

I see this and I am reminded (although I reminded it of it every day), how flamenco is difficult, and how the professional players are so good.


Yes, the flamenco guitar is incredibly difficult to master. There are members of the Foro (Ricardo and Grisha come to mind) who have mastered it. My flamenco guitar maetro and good friend, Paco de Malaga, who has spent a lifetime playing flamenco, has nothing but praise for Ricardo's playing. Others on the Foro are no doubt very accomplished as well.

For my part, I have loved flamenco since I was 17 (transpose those digits and you have my current age: 71), at a time when I didn't even understand it. I just knew I loved the sound of flamenco guitar. After university, a stint in the U.S. Air Force, and a career in the U.S. Foreign Service, I decided to learn flamenco, not only to play the guitar, but to learn the history of flamenco, the key figures in that history, and most of all the key element of cante, something I had no knowledge of at the age of 17 and for many years thereafter. It was only after I met and became a student of Paco that I really began learning how to play and so much more.

Regardless of the difficulty, I have very much enjoyed learning flamenco sufficiently to reach my current level of play. To me, the difficulty is not frustrating because I play not as a vocation but as an avocation. I have many interests, and flamenco is just one of them. It is enough for me to incrementally play a little better each time I learn something new. but I know I will never be an accomplished flamenco guitarist. To me, it is enough to at least understand the art form and be able to play it at a certain amateurish level. I entertain myself and occasionally some friends over a glass of jerez.

Just now, I am on a U.S. State Department consulting gig at the American Embassy in Majuro, capital of the Marshall Islands in the West-Central Pacific. The Embassy has put me up in a house on pilings, with a deck that is over the edge of the coral atoll lagoon. The most pleasant part of the day is when I return from the Embassy about 5:30 PM each day, sit out on the deck over the lagoon as the sun sinks on the far side of the coral atoll, drink a couple glasses of jerez, and play a little flamenco on the guitar. It likely is not a perfect rendition of a solea', but it is satisfying and makes me think how blessedly good life can be.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2014 22:02:52
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

My flamenco guitar maetro and good friend, Paco de Malaga, who has spent a lifetime playing flamenco, has nothing but praise for Ricardo's playing.


Even though I had listened to a little flamenco since I was about 15 or so, Paco was the first flamenco player I had ever seen perform live (when I was just 18) ...it left a lasting impression. I quickly learned that flamenco is more than guitar playing, and as I got deeper and more serious couldn't help but feel like an intruder to a very deep culture. I think the most difficult aspect of flamenco playing is to be able to simply show that respect and do things authentically and sincerely while still being yourself.

After that, the details of playing physically (techniques), musicality (structure), performing (juergas or stage), politics (guasa and attitudes), etc, are not so hard to deal with. If you find yourself getting caught up with any one of those and it's preventing you from continuing or doing your best or having true enjoyment, simply go back and show respect to the culture and the art form. It's important because the rewards for just doing that are huge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2014 4:41:34
 
val

 

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

when you play with singers. They are not going to repeat anything so that you can learn.

I have a video showing a different approach - a rumba singer wanting to learn flamenco, paying a guitarist to practice with and help her!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2014 21:02:15
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:

HOW do I upload videos directly to the forum?

You have to upload to youtube then just post the youtube link, literally copy and paste the address up in the bar in your post.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2014 21:14:01
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to val

quote:

getting one chance with singers and their not repeating anything so you can learn


In the early '90s I visited an accompaniment class in Cordoba given by Phillipe Donnier with El Chaparro; at the time that was considered revolutionary.

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El aficionado solitario
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 6:23:42
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to val

quote:

Reply to Anders - I can't paste a quote from your post (something to do my setup I suppose), but referring to getting one chance with singers and their not repeating anything so you can learn. I have a video showing a different approach - a rumba singer wanting to learn flamenco, paying a guitarist to practise with and help her!


I actually had a better one. A very good local singer started giving song classes and he asked me to be the accompany on the guitar, which I happily did. I really learned a lot.
BUT... there was a problem, his wife was so jelous that there were female singers in the class. She called on the telephone and cried and after a few times he had to stop giving classes.
Thats very spanish.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 7:31:03
 
tele

Posts: 1455
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

BUT... there was a problem, his wife was so jelous that there were female singers in the class. She called on the telephone and cried and after a few times he had to stop giving classes.
Thats very spanish.


Haha, do you think that's more andalucian or just spanish in general, women being hysterical as hell?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 10:58:03
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Thats very spanish


As in following Spanish joke:

A guy calls home from football-training:
"Darling, I had this horrible accident, and Martha drove me to the hospital ...
the medics says they can probably save my leg ... "
"WHO the hell is Martha??"

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 11:20:10
 
tele

Posts: 1455
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to edguerin

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

quote:

Thats very spanish


As in following Spanish joke:

A guy calls home from football-training:
"Darling, I had this horrible accident, and Martha drove me to the hospital ...
the medics says they can probably save my leg ... "
"WHO the hell is Martha??"


Must be based on a true story

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 11:48:23
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to tele

quote:

Haha, do you think that's more andalucian or just spanish in general, women being hysterical as hell?


Andalucia is Spain x 2. Thats why they love being part of Spain and dont want to be independant.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 15:19:25
 
jg7238

 

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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I think the most difficult aspect of flamenco playing is to be able to simply show that respect and do things authentically and sincerely while still being yourself.




  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 16:02:52
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1734
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

But I personally felt that it was frustrating


That’s not what I’ve found most frustrating.

There are of course many women who are interested in Flamenco, and naturally the following does not refer to them.

But a syndrome I’ve come across repeatedly is that men want to go to the peña, but their wives and girlfriends don’t want the men going without them (for whatever reason), so they come along.

But they really have no interest in Flamenco, so they form a clique that spends the whole evening yakking, while the men (and the flamencas) are struggling to listen.

Can I be the only one who’s had this experience?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2014 16:23:19
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:


That’s not what I’ve found most frustrating.

There are of course many women who are interested in Flamenco, and naturally the following does not refer to them.

But a syndrome I’ve come across repeatedly is that men want to go to the peña, but their wives and girlfriends don’t want the men going without them (for whatever reason), so they come along.

But they really have no interest in Flamenco, so they form a clique that spends the whole evening yakking, while the men (and the flamencas) are struggling to listen.

Can I be the only one who’s had this experience?


haha, ye, I´ve had that experience to but mostly when it was shows. Our saturday afternoons in one of the peñas in Huelva was without the wives. It was because the doors were closed and you had to be member of the peña in order to get in. (Spanish laws), And since there were no woman, the wives could stay home in peace.
The whole spanish family tradition has stong sides, but it also has some very dark sides. Lots of control.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2014 7:29:52
 
tele

Posts: 1455
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

But I personally felt that it was frustrating


That’s not what I’ve found most frustrating.

There are of course many women who are interested in Flamenco, and naturally the following does not refer to them.

But a syndrome I’ve come across repeatedly is that men want to go to the peña, but their wives and girlfriends don’t want the men going without them (for whatever reason), so they come along.

But they really have no interest in Flamenco, so they form a clique that spends the whole evening yakking, while the men (and the flamencas) are struggling to listen.

Can I be the only one who’s had this experience?


I think the occasional visitors bring their wives and those who visit often come alone, at least based on my experience. And there's of course the occasional aficionado ladies

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2014 10:40:31
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1734
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

It was because the doors were closed and you had to be member of the peña in order to get in. (Spanish laws),


Really? At Paco Peña’s first few Guitar Festivals in Córdoba, he took the whole class into his local peña as guests (after asking permission first, of course).

There seemed to be no problem.

And I’ve been a guest in peñas many times (including one Paco Serrano took me to that was supposed to be for teens — I would have been in my thirties by then. No one seemed to mind.)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2014 15:02:56
 
Morante

 

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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to tele

In the Peña de Juan Villar, only men are allowed to be socios . We are only 28 socios, the majority gitanos.

Anybody is made welcome in the Peña, but there is a table reserved for socios. This table is almost always occupied by the wives of socios, whose husbands bring bocadillos y cerveza to the table and then retire to the bar!

If I go with my wife, we sit at the table of socios.

However I have been surprised by the small proportion of socios who understand the cante: the wives like cachondeo: Fin de fiesta, rumbas, tangos etc. I played for their villancicos group one year: never again!

But there are are a few who know a lot and it is a pleasure to talk with them, even if outside afterwards
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2014 15:07:17

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
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RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

I don't understand what this thread is about.

What did i miss?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2014 20:29:06
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

In the peñas where I have been a member, the shows were open to everyone but everything else socios only. It has to do with serving and/or consuming of alcohol.

A peña is not a bar. Its a members club. And you may serve alcohol to non members when you have permission for it. Not at other times.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2014 21:18:55
 
rojarosguitar

Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: reminder of how difficult flamen... (in reply to rogeliocan

Coming back to OT I see what you mean.

Quite likely I will never rich a level that is any close to a professional or even a young advanced amateur.

But for me playing music is about joy and not about confirming the expectations of others, so I play what I play how I play and enjoy and admire others for what they do. How could one want to do the same as somebody who dedicated his or her whole life to flamenco!

Of course I will always continue to learn, too ...


best wishes
Robert

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 23 2014 11:01:18
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