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RE: Farruca Challenge???   You are logged in as Guest
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guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to El Kiko

OOPS I thought you hadn't read my posts.

I thought it might be a good idea to use a song, any song, sang Farruca as a basis of a guitar arrangement.

That way anyone can participate as they will only come up with stuff that they can play. And it might make listening to all the other entrants more interesting. We will get new ideas from other intrants about what can be done what works what sounds flamenco and what doesn't. The good ideas as well as maybe hearing the bad ideas we ourselves make objectively when we hear someone else do something similar.

And the fact that everyone will need to come up with new stuff makes the playing field pretty level too.

Maybe the winner will just play the tune straight with minimal added bass notes and play some nice compas inbetween.

It needn't be that Farruca.

But it's just a thought. Although if it flies I guess I will be duty bound to join in and brush up my dusty rasgs.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2014 21:59:01
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2014 23:21:05
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

At the time I entered my only challenge yet (Solea), I was and still am a begginer.

It helped me to clear some things out, mainly because I thought that the falsetas between the compas ("adventure part" as I called it) had to be original compositions and that the compas sections should be very recognizable so there shouldn't be much screwing around with it.


Now I know that what most people do is gather falsetas from many places and throw them together.


My point is that these challenges should be more focused in order for everyone to learn new things. Begginers should be taught the guidelines to what they can do or maybe we could write guidelines for the whole challenge, something like this:

Compas
2 borrowed falsetas
Compas
2 composed falsetas


Some examples of what can be done would also be nice (I mean GOOD tutorials, not random youtube stuff).


I think the main problem with the challenges (and the low number of participants at the end) is that it is assumed that everyone knows the basics for a given palo. Time limit restriction is too vague IMO so I think it's a good thing to steer into a more defined rulebook in order to make the most out of the challenges.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2014 23:40:14
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

I really like the idea of having to turn a sung song into a solo piece, creating falsetas out of cante melody is a great idea. Then seeing different people embellishments/interpretations of that would be really cool.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2014 23:40:33
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins




My point is that these challenges should be more focused in order for everyone to learn new things. Begginers should be taught the guidelines to what they can do or maybe we could write guidelines for the whole challenge, something like this:

Compas
2 borrowed falsetas
Compas
2 composed falsetas





OK, if we were using this track there is

Compas intro V.simple and perfect,
Simple trad falseta.
Compas
Vocal.


A big part of the point would be that participants who want to and need to study the form will do so by ear from the track. That includes the sung melody the accompanying chords and the vocal.

For real beginners this will be a fun learning experience. There is nothing on that recording that can't be easily sung by anyone (including the people who believe they can't sing). And if you can sing it you can play it on the guitar if you have a will and even a rudimentary technique.

And people are always talking about how the root is the cante. I think a lot of styles of music are like that. We can try and be smart and learn a 'form' but if we don't learn some tunes then we can miss a lot.

And a tune is a tune is a tune, you know it is a tune because there is a tune, and what makes it a tune is the tune.

As a guitarist when people say that

'it is necessary to study cante' I hear this ,
'you need to know some tunes'.

The beginner who learns the tune diligently by ear will get the answer to almost all of their questions. And the questions will be answered in the order that they are actually ready to understand them. They will have earned them and they will know the tune for life.

I think I remember someone (maybe Norman maybe not) commenting that this was how either the Rhumba or Columbianas in Pena's Toque Flamenco was put together, from classic vocal lines.



D.

Here is the track again. If someone prefers another and it is as simple and lovely then we can all do that one instead.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 0:41:15
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

Looks like we're getting somewhere.

I have to say that for a long time I thought there were many bulerias, many tangos, many etc...like in rock music, each song is a different song, only the style is the same.

It surely helped once I started thinking of each palo as a "neverending song".

This is the kind of info that would have helped me when I had to do the Solea challenge... all I knew was 12 beats / accents here and there / compas "cliches" that should be used... and now what do I do with this to turn it into a Solea song?



It's like talking about prog rock/metal song structures (or classical music) to anyone who has only been playing flamenco and traditional music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 1:15:29
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Here is a nice one, and I think we've all see it.



And I am not joking I REALLY like that vocal.


I've heard this particular cante many times, and it's the best version I have ever heard. It really shows just how beautiful a cante Farruca is. The cantaor is Jacinto Almaden, and the guitarist is Antonio Arenas.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 2:55:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

Maybe it's a question of semantics.


No. Sierra played in compas, not even libre from the first note, and yes it was flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 4:01:53
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

I'm likin this, people's interpretation of this exact song cante and all, except a guitar playing the cante lines and maybe have a lil fun with the straight compas playing and the falseta.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 5:42:56
 
Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

I'll be in this challenge and looking forward to it!

Farruca sounds nice to me, but i'll be fine with most things else as long as it's suitable for beginners as well

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 12:30:37
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

Oh come on...
No Farruca.
Bulería, Soleá or Tangos
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 13:05:00
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to athrane77

Hey Jof could you pick one song (with singer) very traditional and simple like the Farruca and post a link to one specific performance ?

Then the guys can then decide between the two.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 13:52:02
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha



well, it isn't traditional, but it has a song form, which makes it a bit easier.

or we take this buleria sung by el torta
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 13:55:43
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

I gotta be honest, those are great videos and I enjoyed the listen but a little intimidating in terms of making a falseta to match the melody of the cante. I could be wrong but I don't see a lot of beginners joining to do this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 14:42:50
 
Ramon Amira

 

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From: New York City

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

quote:

Maybe it's a question of semantics.

No. Sierra played in compas, not even libre from the first note, and yes it was flamenco.


As I said, he is in compas most of the time. However, in places he is stretching the compas. There are palos where you can stretch the compas, but in my opinion Farruca isn't one of them.

To reiterate what I said earlier, Farruca has a very strong, marked compas, and I feel it should be played in strict rhythm. If it's not, then I consider that to be out of compas. If someone thinks it's okay to stretch the compas in Farruca, then they're entitled to their opinion. I just don't agree.

On another note, Farruca most certainly IS flamenco.

Ramon

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 15:03:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

To reiterate what I said earlier, Farruca has a very strong, marked compas, and I feel it should be played in strict rhythm. If it's not, then I consider that to be out of compas. If someone thinks it's okay to stretch the compas in Farruca, then they're entitled to their opinion. I just don't agree.


Well, it's simply not true, tempo fluctuations (stretching compas?) are absolutely permitted in any palo and often a requirement when accompanying. This video example he pretty much holds around 85 bpm for the entire piece until the end and one spot in the middle where it builds and stops. "out of compas" is simply not an appropriate description regardless of opinions of interpretation.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 16:26:12
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
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From: The South Ireland

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Leñador

maybe your getting somewhere with the cante to guitar idea ... but then youve limited it by everyone using the same song .
problem with that one is , not thats its bad , its very good , but lots of people have already learned it . or at least in part ....
i think it would be nice , especially for the listener to have some variation to have a surprise or not hear the the same thing over and over ...first good then bad ... etc ... variety is the spice of flamemco

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 18:27:35
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to El Kiko

I don't think the intention was to play that song and add falsetas, that would surely be boring to listen to.

I guess the idea is to use it as guideline to derive melodies/falsetas from... not?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 18:43:07
 
pink

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Flamencito

Good to see you back and posting again Flamencito!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 20:44:03
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
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From: The South Ireland

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Sr. Martins

OK talvez...o maybe i didnt uderstand, or maybe i should just wait until everything is a bit more sorted out before i blurt out ....or maybe i will get a knock on the door ...
again....



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 21:10:54
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

I'm not sure anymore. There's seems to be only a about 5 of us interested and since we can't agree we'll probably lose half of the 5 if we don't pick what they want to do. Yes, 2.5 people will not participate if we do Buleria and the other 2.5 will leave if we do bulerias........
Cante challenge!!! No guitars, knuckles on the table and belt it out!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 21:42:58
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Leñador

Why not 50/50?

Let's play some bulerucas!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 22:11:16
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to Leñador

no you cant stop now ... there are never enough people at the beginning ... they join in later ... you just have to believe .. 2.5 is a good number ..

remember you cant please 3.8 of the people 70.2 percent of the time but you can change 18 % of the other without upsetting 22.5 percent of the apple cart ..

hears something to stink about ...
1. its a challenge ....so there has to be some difficulty involved ..
2. it should be useful .. so after the learning and challenging . you have something usable and useful..
3. it has to appeal to most of the population of the foro..
4. it should be fairly simple to understand
5. there should be a certain ammount of freedom in it as people like self expression
6. I'll get back to you on number 6
7. still thinking about 6
8. ermmm.....damn it 6

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 22:26:57
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

bulerucas

I love it! My word of the day! lolol

I hear you Kiko..........I gotta finish work and reexamine this........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 22:27:28
 
Flamencito

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Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to pink

Thanks Pink

I would try to join a bulerías challenge as well.... It will be very usefull and a nice journey anyway.

But i can't really think about a suiteable challenge for beginners.

Maybe some of the more intermediate/advanced players could come up with some interesting suggestions that will attrackt a lot of beginners to a bulerías challenge as well?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 12 2014 22:48:06
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

Bulerucas??
Okay. transpose Farruca falsetas into bulería compás..
yeah, that would be nice

Just kidding, I know you guys want farruca..
what about a Sabicas Farruca Challenge?
He composed two wonderful pieces; Con garbo y salero and Punta y Tacon.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2014 9:25:21
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to athrane77

Bulerucas, sure take any falseta in triplets por farruca and play it over a buleria click (1/8=1/16) with buleria compas. 12/16 over 3/4 is very very Jerez.

Or you could do it the other way. Play the sung melody of the farruca por arriba making Cs (relative to third fret capo) C# and Bs Bbs. Adjusty any other notes that sound bad and work out a chord progression to suit. Then objectively and honestly start again with this as a first draft.

But I've probably missed the point as I have neither interest in nor understanding of what is supposed to be cool.

Good luck guys finding a challenge worthy of you, I must admit I am relieved that with my suggestion dispatched I won't need to put any work in.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2014 10:23:10
 
cristina

 

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RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

guitarbuddha, my english is really bad, but I think, this was a joke, - but stimulating the appetite of advanced or professional players, picking up the scent.


ok.Farruca. As for me, I'll play the guitar-part from:



;-)

How far as I understand, a "challange" is like a concurso, isn't it? with a winner,
2dplace, 3d place ... - - I see the future yet: place 99 for me :-(

may be another form is more enjoyable and easier to participate, but challenging as well? What's about something like a summit, virtual meeting, festival ...

no need for a jury
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2014 11:56:01
 
guitarbuddha

 

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to cristina

Hey Cristina thanks for that link I really enjoyed it, and such a different take on the tune and form.

At least these two singers didn't feel constrained by sticking to a single tune. The actually seem perfectly able to express both themselves and the tune without contradiction. Perhaps they would have benefited from the education of the flamenco police ?

Before the current wave of singing contest shows we used to have TV talent shows here. Every week someone would be criticised for playing either a jazz standard or classical piece would be criticised for not expressing themselves. By a non musician. It has become a lazy dogma. Easy to say but conveying no understanding.

I wonder that it doesn't discredit the whole field of acting. 'I was dissapointed by your performance of Hamlet because you did't express yourself. You see you didn't write it yourself from scratch'. 'Your perfromance in waiting for Godot was not creative because I note you used the same words as Sir Ian McKellan'. Or poetry 'Your poem was not creative because I have read all of these words before'.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2014 12:16:06
 
cristina

 

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Joined: Mar. 7 2014
 

RE: Farruca Challenge??? (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

OK, if we were using this track there is

Compas intro V.simple and perfect,
Simple trad falseta.
Compas
Vocal.


you meant this, right?

I think, a structure would be fine, but more as a guideline, proposal than a strict requirement. p.e. In my ears Some falsetas only make sense following another falseta .... and so on

Maybe a timelimit also would be good.?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2014 12:23:15
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