Not flamenco but wow

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guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

Not flamenco but wow

Wow.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2014 20:21:55

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Wow indeed

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2014 20:31:19

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

C'est chaud!

(Methinks there's no need to use the quasi-apologetic "Not flamenco but..." - isn't that what "Off Topic" means?)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2014 20:52:16

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

C'est chaud!

(Methinks there's no need to use the quasi-apologetic "Not flamenco but..." - isn't that what "Off Topic" means?)

Charlie Parker was mentioned earlier tonight.

I have said this before but I think if Paco had met Jim Hall or Bireli Lagrene instead of Al Di or John M well,, I would be more likely to feel inclined to take the time to listen again to such collaborations.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2014 20:55:55

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

That's fun, what's the deal with these jazz manouche guitars?? Who makes them?? Are and were they made specifically for this music??

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2014 22:54:36

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selmer_guitar

quote:

That's fun, what's the deal with these jazz manouche guitars?? Who makes them?? Are and were they made specifically for this music??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selmer_guitar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 0:21:45

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Thanks!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 0:47:26

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

To be honest, I find it boring after 3 - 4 minuts. To many notes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 7:24:19

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to Leñador)

Yeah Len they are weird guitars and boy are they loud, especially if a gypsy has one as they pound out super solid rest strokes with picks as thick as a finger.

And the Selmer and copies cut the mustard accompanying a clarinet or a saxophone in a way that I really can't make my poor old nylon string manage. But there is nothing worse than a white guy with a cheap wet and boomy Chinese copy playing godawful rhythm over the soloist.

What I really like about this tradition is that the soloist are always always always aware of where they are in the harmony and often have the courage to try crazy things out against it.

But Anders has a point although the new guys are great when you go back and listen to Django there is more space and he does more with rhythm and unusual phrasing and motivic development. But if you get bored of too many notes then the 'proper' song structure of the repetoire limits you to three or four minutes anyway.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 8:37:17

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Fantastic players true - but Donna Lee is a guitar 'stunt' piece and often just an invitation to go 'wow'. Just had a look for Giant Steps Manouche style but luckily, can't see it. At least that would be funny as well.

The first guitarist has the nicer instrument or technique to my ear. I have a Gitane version. And it sounds like a Gitane packet...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 10:57:44

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

Fantastic players true - but Donna Lee is a guitar 'stunt' piece and often just an invitation to go 'wow'.

I thought the treatment was fun, the 'Back Home in Indian' quote Adrian plays is surprisingly seldom made. I found the transitions from lead to rhythm playing absolutely incredible. It has become a bit of a warhorse but probably just because all guitarists know that they cant really play jazz till they can really do a classic bebop head justice. Which reminds me I should be learning some.....dooh.

The stunt aspect I think comes from Jaco Pastorious and here it is pushed way past the point of bad taste by Victor Wooten.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 11:09:24

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Lulo Reinhardt

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 11:16:46

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to Morante)

Hey Thanks for that Morante.

I think I saw Moses Rosenberg doing something very similar recently, maybe the same promoter ?

There is quite a tradition of crossover from the Gypsy Kings to Raphael Fays.

And Stochelo's Gypsy summer is like a buleria/gypsy waltz crossover, I wonder if Stochelo was listening to Mario Escudero.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 11:26:31

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I think I saw Moses Rosenberg doing something very similar recently, maybe the same promoter ?

Lulo´s promoter is called Laura and is located in USA. He lives in Germany. We are trying to bring him to Cadiz but she is quoting exorbitant prices.

I met him in Germany (Aachen) 2 years ago, when we went to visit some friends who come here every summer. They invited us to a small restaurant where Lulo played with violin, bass and drums. They were sensational live. Afterwards we spoke with him and bought his CD.

If you ever have a chance to see him, take it. He is the sobrino nieto(grand nephew?) de Jango.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 15:12:00

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

They invited us to a small restaurant where Lulo played with violin, bass and drums. They were sensational live. Afterwards we spoke with him and bought his CD.

Sounds great. I'll keep an eye out for him.

But why the drums ? No good gypsy rhythm players around town ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 15:20:39

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I say Charleston is like the happy alegrias, add the baile and dance like crazy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 18:02:28

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

I say Charleston is like the happy alegrias, add the baile and dance like crazy.

OK, fair enough.

But I sure wish they had used a better rendering of that HotClub recording, I love Django's impro on that track and it sounds like sh1t on that video.

I think I'll dance a freeform Fandango to this........when I've finished my beer.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 18:20:48

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

To be honest, I find it boring after 3 - 4 minuts. To many notes.

I like it but I agree. I wonder how people can play only gypsy jazz all their lives.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 19:38:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

To be honest, I find it boring after 3 - 4 minuts. To many notes.

I like it but I agree. I wonder how people can play only gypsy jazz all their lives.

I don't think that there are many who do.

But even if they did, it's not such a low bar.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 19:45:42

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to tele)

quote:

I wonder how people can play only gypsy jazz all their lives.

That's an interesting question and relates to all musical disciplines, I think.
As a neophyte, once the passion and defensiveness for a genre lessens - generally the more you understand the perimeter and values of the genre - you allow yourself to be more open to other genres. I'm talking about players here, not listeners.
After many years as a musician, most musicians I work with play several sorts of music, though they all broadly follow one tributary or another.

For me, there is nothing in gypsy jazz now except flash. That's why none of them play grande bouche guitars, they're all the lead guitarist in the band...

.
But, Diego del Gastor? Stan Getz and Kenny Barron? They kill me. That's not their technique talking, it's their hearts and souls.

I have the Stan Getz book and don't recall much non-jazz stuff. Same with Art Pepper. I can't imagine there being much musical opportunity in Morón either. Did those guys exclusively plough the same furrow? Did that characteristic contribute to their profound expression of their respective styles?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 12:10:21

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

I have the Stan Getz book and don't recall much non-jazz stuff. Same with Art Pepper. I can't imagine there being much musical opportunity in Morón either. Did those guys exclusively plough the same furrow? Did that characteristic contribute to their profound expression of their respective styles?

If you are born into a culture which has a particular style of music as its expression, it is easier to stay in that style, except for the very talented (e.g. Paco de Lucía). That is what Pohren meant when he called flamenco "A way of life".

If you come from another culture, you can be fascinated by the new culture for many years, even become accepted, but you will always have other interests.

People can live in Andalucía for many years, metido en flamenco, but can always regress to their roots. For the flamencos, the roots are flamenco (or jazz or gypsy swing etc.)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 16:04:11

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to El Burdo)

I don't think there is any one size fits all philosophy of music.

Stan Getz was a pivotal figure in popularising Tom Jobim and Brasilian Bossa Nova to an American Jazz audience. He was desperate to work with Joao Gilberto and the album with Charlie Byrd was part of his pitch and preparation.

It may seem now that Bossa Nova is part of 'Jazz' but it certainly was not so then. Horace Silver and Dizzy Gillespie and Jim Hall have all discussed their fascination for this new music and their work reflects their adoption of it's harmony rhythm and melodic contours.

As does the work of Gerardo Nunez and Paco de Lucia the Tuto video posted earlier this year.

I am not saying that there is a right or a wrong way to play flamenco or any other style that I know better than anyone else. I think that there are a lot different ways and lots of them sound great to me.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 16:57:59

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I agree but we seem to have some topic drift

I was following tele's question about remaining solely in one genre. Morante is right, if music is an expression of a culture then I can see there will always be a draw back to it. Like Irish music etc.

And because I don't come from such a culture I am probably less tied to anything and freer to investigate other musical genres. I have settled on modern jazz and flamenco as a player etc. and have trouble dropping one to play the other!

So, I doubt this can be confined to Gypsy Jazz. The dominant spanish phrygian character of flamenco means for me I want to hear other harmonic/melodic behaviour. This may well be one of the several reasons I won't become anything serious as a flamenco guitarist or a jazz musician. Single minded people may well not have this problem.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 17:39:37

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

I agree but we seem to have some topic drift I was following tele's question about remaining solely in one genre. Morante is right, if music is an expression of a culture then I can see there will always be a draw back to it. Like Irish music etc.

I can't disagree. I have found myself playing and studying (by ear) some of the Scottish and Irish folk music my father played when I was a child, some of which I haven't heard since.

I remember when Gerardo was giving a class in London a few years ago he taught us when to say Ole in the compas. At the time I thought 'We have something exsactly the same in Scottish music'. We say Heeeuchh !!! and everyone knows when and why. But I don't think I ever heard anyone ever ever discuss it, it would be like pointing out that you have two hands or that rain falls downwards.......... which I think says a lot about Gerardo's patience.

I've been enjoying all the comments

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 17:51:16

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I've been enjoying all the comments

OK, give me a moment. I'm sure I can can up with something to change that...

Again, you are right, I had in fact forgotten that samba was identifiably different to jazz before that fortuitous meeting of minds in the 60s and that Stan had a lot to do with it becoming such a strong jazz rhythmic option today.

During one of my forays into Cuban music I remember one guy saying it annoyed him when a jazzer would say, "let's go into latin" in the middle 8 or something. The guy wanted to say "which one of the several hundred different 'latins' would you like to go into (with the implied m*f)"?

I thought, let that be a lesson to me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 22:24:04

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to guitarbuddha)

They’re using all their fingers. That’s cheating.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 16:07:23

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

They’re using all their fingers. That’s cheating.

OK Paul, no cheating here....

In fact right at this moment I am just using one.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 16:37:17

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Not flamenco but wow (in reply to El Burdo)

I learned Donna Lee when I was about 19 years old and studying with a great straight ahead jazz guy. Stunt? No, it's simply a standard with a head that is a total bitch to play on the guitar. And playing a decent solo over those changes ain't no joke either. It's not a stunt, it's a right of passage for any jazz player. In fact, it's a requirement that a jazz guy know the tune. That said, I was not that into straight jazz as a kid, and would have to practice for a few days to even pull off the head, and weeks more to produce a decent solo. the whole gypsy jazz thing doesn't do much for me but I certainly admire the skill.
It's kind of funny to me that people sometimes dismiss flamencos who play older falsetas and old style in general, which can be stuff from the 50's and 60's and yet no one seems to put down these guys who focus on stuff way older.

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

Fantastic players true - but Donna Lee is a guitar 'stunt' piece and often just an invitation to go 'wow'. Just had a look for Giant Steps Manouche style but luckily, can't see it. At least that would be funny as well.

The first guitarist has the nicer instrument or technique to my ear. I have a Gitane version. And it sounds like a Gitane packet...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 20:56:37