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RE: Why does my brand new Navarro look kind of... "Choppy"?
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estebanana
Posts: 9378
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
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Ah, Here's what you got, a bit of an education in buying guitars. There's a learning curve in buying flamenco guitars. And I bet if you check back in a few months you'll be playing your guitar and will hardly remember the things you feel are troubles. You mentioned you're an engineering student, often the things that catch the eye of one person will not bother another person. So the precision of the Taylor guitars agree with you. But here's the deal, the Taylor factory in San Diego CA is set up so the workers assemble pieces cut by computer guided routers. The workers don't have to have any special knowledge of guitar making, they are gluing parts together and moving them to the next assembly section. That is for the $600.00 models. The parts are perfect at the Taylor factory and each parts looks exactly like the 400 parts of the same part of the guitar they cut that week. The parts were put together by the same team, which work around the clock, the Taylor factory has at least two maybe three shifts last time I checked, regular day shift, night shift and swing shift. The workers get a scale of about $12.00 her hour to start at Taylor. They punch in and punch out. The factory makes all levels of guitars, but the workers that do the majority of the assembly are not luthiers, they are assemblers who put together pre cut parts. In Paracho they still make the guitar pretty much by hand, but in some houses they make them one by one and in some houses they make several at once, but the difference is in Paracho the guitars are made by small shops, compared to Taylor and they don't have the parts precut by computers. The cutting is done by guys at band saws and table saws and now days they have thickness sanders. But here is the main thing, you may find the details sloppy, but the intent and time spent on the thickness of the top, bridge weight, fan bracing, neck angle, accuracy of intonation is still quite good quality work over seen by if not carried out by, an actual luthier. They are not working with pristine parts, they are working fast, but they are also paying attention as much as possible to the factors that make your guitar feel correct as a flamenco guitar under your hands. I did not hear you mention the action was unbearable, or that the intonation was horrible, or the wood was deeply flawed. Or that the neck was super bumpy. You did say the structural integrity of the guitar was good. You basically got a hand made guitar over seen and probably partially built by a luthier who has a good touch for top thickness and bracing for $1000.00. You can see it for what it is, a hand made thing in a world where machine cut perfection is the rule. You bought a piece of a persons judgement and labor, whereas, (not saying it's bad) if you buy a Taylor you buy a computer guided routers accuracy, but it lacks the judgement and oversight of a guitar maker who understands how flamenco guitars should feel. Congratulations, you bought into humanity and all it's imperfections- and after all the saving and planning you bought from a dealer who has scruples and pride in the product he carries. He is helping you by continuing to support the line he carries even after you gave him your hard earned money. Taylor would have done the same thing too, I have done warranty work on Taylor's and they give great repair support. But do they make guitars as flamenca as the guys in Paracho? Probably not. Mazel tov!
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 29 2014 21:11:36
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flamencositar
Posts: 76
Joined: Aug. 8 2012
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RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana Ah, Here's what you got, a bit of an education in buying guitars. There's a learning curve in buying flamenco guitars. And I bet if you check back in a few months you'll be playing your guitar and will hardly remember the things you feel are troubles. You mentioned you're an engineering student, often the things that catch the eye of one person will not bother another person. So the precision of the Taylor guitars agree with you. But here's the deal, the Taylor factory in San Diego CA is set up so the workers assemble pieces cut by computer guided routers. The workers don't have to have any special knowledge of guitar making, they are gluing parts together and moving them to the next assembly section. That is for the $600.00 models. The parts are perfect at the Taylor factory and each parts looks exactly like the 400 parts of the same part of the guitar they cut that week. The parts were put together by the same team, which work around the clock, the Taylor factory has at least two maybe three shifts last time I checked, regular day shift, night shift and swing shift. The workers get a scale of about $12.00 her hour to start at Taylor. They punch in and punch out. The factory makes all levels of guitars, but the workers that do the majority of the assembly are not luthiers, they are assemblers who put together pre cut parts. In Paracho they still make the guitar pretty much by hand, but in some houses they make them one by one and in some houses they make several at once, but the difference is in Paracho the guitars are made by small shops, compared to Taylor and they don't have the parts precut by computers. The cutting is done by guys at band saws and table saws and now days they have thickness sanders. But here is the main thing, you may find the details sloppy, but the intent and time spent on the thickness of the top, bridge weight, fan bracing, neck angle, accuracy of intonation is still quite good quality work over seen by if not carried out by, an actual luthier. They are not working with pristine parts, they are working fast, but they are also paying attention as much as possible to the factors that make your guitar feel correct as a flamenco guitar under your hands. I did not hear you mention the action was unbearable, or that the intonation was horrible, or the wood was deeply flawed. Or that the neck was super bumpy. You did say the structural integrity of the guitar was good. You basically got a hand made guitar over seen and probably partially built by a luthier who has a good touch for top thickness and bracing for $1000.00. You can see it for what it is, a hand made thing in a world where machine cut perfection is the rule. You bought a piece of a persons judgement and labor, whereas, (not saying it's bad) if you buy a Taylor you buy a computer guided routers accuracy, but it lacks the judgement and oversight of a guitar maker who understands how flamenco guitars should feel. Congratulations, you bought into humanity and all it's imperfections- and after all the saving and planning you bought from a dealer who has scruples and pride in the product he carries. He is helping you by continuing to support the line he carries even after you gave him your hard earned money. Taylor would have done the same thing too, I have done warranty work on Taylor's and they give great repair support. But do they make guitars as flamenca as the guys in Paracho? Probably not. Mazel tov! Estebanana, Wow! What a fantastic post, good sir! That is some serious knowledge drop. I believe this made by either Marlon (Poncho's son.) and or another member of the clan. Navarro works on the higher end instruments almost exclusively these days. I have a Poncho's Reyes Flamenca Negra, and no workmanship issues what so ever. I know 2 different models, blah blah... But my point is, Poncho does good work. Op, call Ron and get it squared away if it sucks donkey butt.
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Still the body, quiet the mind, free the soul
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Date Apr. 29 2014 23:34:55
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wiking
Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
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RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to estebanana)
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This is a fantastic post, and really makes me think about the guitar differently. It's really a great little guitar, absolutely rips when I dig in a bit and play fast, just the right amount of buzz at the attack of a note, raspiness, smooth neck, perfect action...... It's taken a day but I've convinced myself this guitar is really a keeper. It's my first luthier instrument so I mean, bear with me as I learn the ropes around here, haha. I'm willing to bet the luthier I take it to tomorrow will have a chuckle and tell me if the guitar plays properly I wouldn't want to endanger changing anything about it with a new nut and nut groove finishing, even if it would look slightly neater... But I will be bringing it to him for him to inspect to make sure it's structurally sound, a check-up if you will. Then with his blessing I'll carry on learning and stop complaining about stray chisel marks. This thread was enlightening and I changed my mind on it like 5 times but I'm mostly of a mind to leave it alone at this point, unless the luthier I'm meeting tomorrow assures me he can make that gouge go away without any too-serious operation on the nut groove. Thanks all for your thoughts.
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Date Apr. 30 2014 2:22:33
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wiking
Posts: 63
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
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RE: Why does my brand new Navarro lo... (in reply to Turner)
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So here's what I decided on: I took it to a luthier and he had a chuckle and sat with it and played. And he said: "Well, it is perfectly intonated, the action is fantastic, the frets are immaculately dressed, it's got just a hint of "buzz"... So why would you want me to change this?" He also showed me how the nut, while it looks odd at the end in the photo, is actually sitting perfectly flat along the base of the nut groove, makes perfect contact with the "lip" of the headstock behind it and has a uniform, slight gap between it and the fretboard, which he said is no real issue. He said he could easily pull out the nut, fashion a new one, put it back in so it "looks" better in the groove, but then I'd walk away with less money in my pocket and a guitar that, at best, will still only play as well as it did before the "repair". He told me to relax, that he recommends coming back to see him when the nut actually needs replacing and he'll clean it up, and that there's nothing out of place or poorly executed where it matters. The little "dip" in the groove is only on one side from a slightly misplaced chisel. It really does look worse in my photo than it does in real life, it's barely noticeable. I left well enough alone and now spend my energy on tight arpeggios and smooth rasgueados rather than worrying about cosmetic nonissues. Happy as a clam, but I'm sure some snob will chime in and tell me how he'd never accept such a travesty on his instrument and etc, etc. Save it, I'm happy. I then called Ron back and did the honest thing and told him that since I'm no longer going to have the guitar serviced, he no longer needs to send me a refund to cover it. Integrity. Case closed!
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Date May 14 2014 2:51:02
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