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edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

Gitano names 

I'm trying to find out what the exact background of Gitano names like
Luís el de la Juliána
Joaquín el de la Paula
Manolito (el) de María
etc. is.
AFAIK Roma (Gitano?) names can be transmitted patrilineally as well as matrilineally, depending on which clan/family "feels" closer. Do these names express kinship? Or are they arbitrary?

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Ed

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Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 15:01:26
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3623
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

you mean like Paco de Lucía?

I assume the names you quote in bold are their mothers, to distinguish one Luís, Joaquin, Manolo, Paco etc. from others with same first names (PDL mentions this in Light and Shade documentary).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 16:47:24
 
Estevan

Posts: 1934
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

Gitanos have the same kind of names as other Spanish people, i.e. given name followed by father's family name followed by mother's family name: Francisco Sánchez Gomes, Manuel Moreno Junquera, Antonio Carmona Carmona.

The examples you give are all nicknames, just like Paco de Lucía. This came from when he was a kid and there were loads of kids called Paco running around the neighbourhood, so if someone asked which Paco do you mean, you'd say Paco de Lucía (Lucy's Frank) or Paco de la Juana (Jane's Frank) or whatever, as the case may be. His brother Ramón didn't have that problem (not as many Ramóns) so for his stage name he used the hometown, which is pretty common too, and so became known as Ramón de Algeciras (Raymond of Al Jazeera).

So in the list you give above, Luís is Juliana's Luís, from round the corner, not the other one, María's Luís,who lives down the road, and so on.

Those are the basic ones. When you get into the 'apodos' (made up nicknames) then it's not about the mother but perhaps some physical characteristic or something. But that gets a bit esoteric when the nickname is passed down to a great-nephew or someone who doesn't share that same physical characteristic.

If you sing, it's good to name yourself after an item of seafood; as a guitar player, go for a vegetable.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 16:58:28
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mark indigo

sometimes also a vegetable name is used like tomatito or potito(altough I'm not sure if this one comes from word patata)
Some use location, like ramon de algeciras

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 17:57:22
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

quote:

So in the list you give above, Luís is Juliana's Luís, from round the corner, not the other one, María's Luís,who lives down the road, and so on.


Sure, but why would it have to be María's Luís rather than Pepe's or José's Luís?

quote:

potito(altough I'm not sure if this one comes from word patata)


No, it doesn't, it's baby food

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Ed

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Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 6:58:13
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

What about names like Agujetas.
Doesn't that mean "charley horse" ?




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 7:05:08
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

quote:

Doesn't that mean "charley horse" ?




More like muscle ache or toggles (as in duffle coat buttons)

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Ed

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Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 8:33:56
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2145
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Gitano names (in reply to Arash

quote:

More like muscle ache


The pins and needles that the muscles can suffer after unacustomed exercise are called agujetas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 10:04:18
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3623
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

quote:

Sure, but why would it have to be María's Luís rather than Pepe's or José's Luís?

maybe 'cos the dad's were out at work and the mum's were at home scrubbing the laundry, cooking potaje and minding the kids.... I'm guessing, I don't really know.

I am wondering though if the names you quote in the first post are also handed down so if someone becomes a notable artist their descendants use the same "el de la ....." name even though that name is not actually their mother, but their father's or aunts or grandparents' mother

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 13:20:08
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

quote:

Sure, but why would it have to be María's Luís rather than Pepe's or José's Luís?


I think its just practical. In Spain, it was and still is the women that take care of the kids. In gypsy familys its completely like that. So people are used to relate the kid to the mother.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 15:47:59
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

I am wondering though if the names you quote in the first post are also handed down so if someone becomes a notable artist their descendants use the same "el de la ....." name even though that name is not actually their mother, but their father's or aunts or grandparents' mother


I'm inclined to agree. In that way it sort of becomes a "brand name".

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Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 15:59:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

quote:

quote:

So in the list you give above, Luís is Juliana's Luís, from round the corner, not the other one, María's Luís,who lives down the road, and so on.


Sure, but why would it have to be María's Luís rather than Pepe's or José's Luís?

quote:

potito(altough I'm not sure if this one comes from word patata)


No, it doesn't, it's baby food


Enrique de Melchor
Diego del Morao
Jose del Tomate

etc

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 18:51:49
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

Nino Miguel
Nina de los Peines
Tia Juana la del Pipa <--- Best one ever lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 20:21:06
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3416
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Gitano names (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


Enrique de Melchor
Diego del Morao
Jose del Tomate

etc


Niño Ricardo = Manuel Serrapi Sanchez, son of Ricardo Sanchez

Morao, Moraito, Moraito Chico, Moraito Chico II, Diego del Morao all with the patronymic Moreno

Manolo de Huelva =Manuel Gómez Vélez

Manolo Sanlucar = Manuel Muñoz Alcón

Antonio Mairena = Antonio Cruz García from Mairena del Alcor

Melchor de Marchena = Melchor Jimenez Torres

Manolo Caracol = Manuel Ortega Juarez

Rafael Romero "El Gallina" whose mother's nickname was "La Gallina"

Perico el del Lunar = Pedro del Valle Pichardo had a prominent mole on his face

Bernardo el de los Lobitos, also Niño de Alcalá = Bernardo Álvarez Pérez. His nickname "of the wolf cubs" was from a bulerias letra

La Niña de los Peines = Pastora Pavón Cruz. Her brother, a great singer, but not as famous went by his actual name, Tomás Pavón Cruz

… and one of the most famous names of all, Manuel Torre (=Manuel Soto Loreto) was sometimes called Niño de Jerez

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 20:59:15
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3623
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Gitano names (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Manolo Caracol = Manuel Gómez Vélez

anyone know how he got the nickname "Caracol"?

also Tomatito, I think his name came from his grandfather El Tomate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2014 9:25:41
 
burnsbyrne

Posts: 44
Joined: Sep. 17 2005
From: NE Ohio, USA

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mark indigo

And don't forget Fosforito, the little match.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2014 13:45:37
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

geografic --

El Lebrijano
Gaspar de Utrera
Beni de Cai
Naranjito de Triana
Carmen Linares
Pascual de Lorca

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2014 13:53:19
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3623
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mezzo

plenty of names, but what's really interesting is the stories behind them.
What the names mean, where they come from, and if they were "inherited" from family members etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2014 13:55:09
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3416
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Manolo Caracol = Manuel Gómez Vélez

anyone know how he got the nickname "Caracol"?

also Tomatito, I think his name came from his grandfather El Tomate


When he was 12 he won the Granada Concurso as El Niño Caracol, but that's as far back as I know about. Here's a photo taken in the 1940s with Lola Flores--easy to see why they were big movie stars. Wow, what a girl!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2014 19:54:16
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2145
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

anyone know how he got the nickname "Caracol"?


His father "Manuel Ortega Fernández" was known as Caracol Viejo. Don´t know why
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2014 23:41:41
 
Estevan

Posts: 1934
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

anyone know how he got the nickname "Caracol"?

I read (I don't remember properly) that when he was a kid he knocked a pot of snails off the stove and his mum yelled at him. Or something like that.

Edit:
quote:

His father "Manuel Ortega Fernández" was known as Caracol Viejo. Don´t know why

Found it (it was his father who threw a ball and hit the snails):

La procedencia de su apodo lo explica el cantaor citando una anécdota vivida por su padre, del que lo heredó. "Estando un día mi padre cuando chico en Cádiz tiró un pelotazo a una olla de caracoles que se estaba guisando. Y como mi tía dijo '¡Sabía que esto iba a pasar, Caracol!, de ahí este apellido que se convertió en nombre artístico", asegura en ABC el 25 de octubre de 1964.
Caracol - diario de Jerez

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2014 23:49:49
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

So in the case of Caracol there's proof" of the heritability of artists names.
But, as we have seen, there're at least as many names pertaining to male as to female relatives. So to rephrase my original question:
Does this have a specific background (as in the patrilineal vs. matrilineal Roma name giving in the Balkans, I mentioned above)?


quote:

Gitanos have the same kind of names as other Spanish people, i.e. given name followed by father's family name followed by mother's family name

This of course is due to absolutistic/enlightened bureaucracy which forced the Gitanos to adopt conventional "payo" names (as happened with the Jews as well in a lot of European states in the 18th century). To this day in Romanian Roma-dialect the first (christian) name is called "gadje" ("gadjo" is equivalent to "payo").

quote:

Found it (it was his father who threw a ball and hit the snails)

Where did you find that? I remember reading that too, somewhere, but can't find it anymore, so maybe you can help.

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Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2014 6:44:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gitano names (in reply to edguerin

quote:

This of course is due to absolutistic/enlightened bureaucracy which forced the Gitanos to adopt conventional "payo" names (as happened with the Jews as well in a lot of European states in the 18th century). To this day in Romanian Roma-dialect the first (christian) name is called "gadje" ("gadjo" is equivalent to "payo").


I think you are confusing different types of gypsies. The ones in south spain speak Calo, NOT Romany. I don't know of any Calo names vs proper spanish names for gypsies but I am sure someone might think of someone with one. In the case of the examples above, we are talking NICKNAMES or artistic names for spanish flamencos, both gipsy or non gipsy. Even the first known flamenco performer had a spanish name Antonio Fernandez, and nickname "El Planeta". Nick names need not carry through any family type rule such as fathers mothers or uncles. For example, Melchor's brother played guitar but was called "Chico Melchor". In my neck of the woods the Romanian gipsies tend to use Italian mafia type names for kids that stick through adulthood (bobby, jimmy, dino, vito, nico, etc)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2014 17:11:28
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Gitano names (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I think you are confusing different types of gypsies


No Richard, I'm not confusing them. My question was wether or not there are parallels.

Caló evolved from Romanó (Romany) from about the 15th Century on. Today it no longer can be considered Romany but is a so-called Para-Romany language
Interestingly the Diccionario de la lengua española de la Real Academia Española lists Romanó as equivalent to Caló...
The European Council defines Roma as encompassing Roma, Sinti and Kalé...

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Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2014 17:41:05
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Gitano names (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

plenty of names, but what's really interesting is the stories behind them.
What the names mean, where they come from, and if they were "inherited" from family members etc.

Well! In that case, indulge yourself.
Nombres artisticos en el mundo flamenco
600 p. onda matta...

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2014 19:22:29
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