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I've stumbled upon this amazing footage of the great Ramón Montoya playing guitar with his nephew Carlos Montoya. It's a movie from 1938, but in all these years I don't think anyone in flamenco ever noticed. I checked the complete cast of the film, and it identifies them by name, so there's no question.
This is the link...they're accompanying Imperio Argentina.
Although they're in the background, interesting bits can be gleaned, most notably the fact that one is playing por medio and the other por arriba. I wonder if this was when young Carlos decided it would be more fun to be a soloist...
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
That is amazing film footage of Ramon Montoya and his nephew Carlos Montoya, Estela. What is even more amazing is that they are playing together. My understanding has always been that Ramon did not consider Carlos worthy of his attention and refused to teach him. As a result Ramon and Carlos were estranged, and after Carlos became famous he rarely, if ever, acknowledged Ramon, I suppose with good reason from Carlos' point of view.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
What is even more amazing is that they are playing together.
I agree...I nearly fell off my seat when I realized who it was. Over at facebook, of my 485 "friends", all of whom are related to flamenco one way or another, the reaction has been tepid, only twenty or thirty people realize how extraordinary this is. The fact that it's been sitting there for 76 years, doesn't make it any less astonishing.
It would be a great project for some dedicated young aficionado to go through the many Spanish films of the thirties, forties and fifties takng note of appearances of possibly legendary artists such as these...just last year I noticed Chano Lobato as a very young man doing palmas for Aurelio Sellé in "Duende y Misterio del Flamenco" (1952). Who knows, maybe Torre, Tomás and Mojama will surface at youtube...
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
That is unbelievable footage. Thanks. As Bill said, the story has always been that Ramon refused to teach Carlos, but there they are. And they both still had hair.
Maybe you could check one thing in the cast list - I thought I saw one very brief glimpse of the actor Paul Henreid, and possibly Basil Rathbone. Could you check that out.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
That is unbelievable footage. Thanks. As Bill said, the story has always been that Ramon refused to teach Carlos, but there they are. And they both still had hair.
Maybe you could check one thing in the cast list - I thought I saw one very brief glimpse of the actor Paul Henreid, and possibly Basil Rathbone. Could you check that out.
That's the first thing I though too, they both still had hair... . The cast list doesn't show Henreid or Rathbone, in fact all the actors have Spanish names.
The fact that they're playing together is not necessarily indicative of a teacher/student relationship, or even of good relations between them. It's just a gig...and they had to wear those silly costumes... .
You can see Ramón in a close-up for three seconds at the very beginning of this other fragment:
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
presumably the one on the left is Ramón?
I had a look at the YT channel that uploaded the vid and there's another clip - looks like they are playing negras
In the clip I first posted Ramón is on the right. In this other scene of the fight, I don't see Ramón or Carlos, just actors...there's no guitar being played.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
that's Ramon on the left in the first clip
As we view the image, Ramón is on the left, the more corpulent of the two, with the cejilla up higher. Once you see the 3-second close-up I just posted, it becomes clear that's Ramón.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: zata
I've stumbled upon this amazing footage of the great Ramón Montoya playing guitar with his nephew Carlos Montoya. It's a movie from 1938, but in all these years I don't think anyone in flamenco ever noticed. I checked the complete cast of the film, and it identifies them by name, so there's no question.
This is the link...they're accompanying Imperio Argentina.
Although they're in the background, interesting bits can be gleaned, most notably the fact that one is playing por medio and the other por arriba. I wonder if this was when young Carlos decided it would be more fun to be a soloist...
Wow, awesome footage! And the youtube vid was loaded almost 4 years ago and nobody noticed those guys. Too bad the audio doesn't have even any guitar sound. But still I like seeing his technique...arps picado rasgueado. beautiful stuff....poor carlos had some weird technique there. But understandable showmanship. Nice to see him playing close to the bridge (like all his recordings sound) despite all the still posing shot where he has his hand over the sound hole. Looks like he started out 2 por medio and then changed it up to 7 arriba right in the first scene and stayed up there for most of it...but later on inter cut scenes sometimes show him back at capo 2. I can imagine more of him could be found if someone put in the work to hunt through old movies. But for sure it is a shame we don't have better video than these movie clips of Ramon and N. Ricardo etc.
EDIT Just saw the close up showing solea, that was 3 seconds of perfect...imagine an entire 2hour Encuentro vid in that quality of his playing. I prefer that little bit as it's the real playing and audio and continues with a sweet tremolo.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
quote:
In this other scene of the fight, I don't see Ramón or Carlos, just actors...there's no guitar being played.
I looked again, you are right, not Ramón and Carlos, but she takes the guitar from one and it is dark wood on the back and sides of both guitars, it's all very quick, and I was looking at the guitars
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
Ramon had just recorded his famous solo recordings in Paris the year before (in Faucher music book they talk about Ramon and family sort of escaping spain to do this project)...sounds like Probably this was filmed in Paris so maybe Ramon stayed in Paris after his successful solo concerts and recordings? If carlos was already established there, maybe HE got the gig for the uncle?
Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
quote:
It would be a great project for some dedicated young aficionado to go through the many Spanish films of the thirties, forties and fifties takng note of appearances of possibly legendary artists such as these
If you search YouTube for “Manolo Caracol Niño Ricardo” you can find some fascinating stuff. The only problem is, they’re just used as background music while some clown jabbers over them.
One can imagine the producer saying to the casting director “OK, we need something to make this café scene a bit more interesting; find me some flamenco singer or other, and a guitarist”.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
So typical of the Spanish girls ... just take your guitar and start hitting people on the stage ....I got through so many like that ....and without even asking first !!! You should always keep a few cheap ones up there with you ...spread the cost a bit ....
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
It`s exciting to see that these things keep surfacings. One would suppose that in all those years everything has been found and remastered. It`s great to think how many things are waiting to be discovered
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
Wow...what a great find! As you say, it was just a gig for those guys. Actually I have been listening to a lot of Carlos Montoya recently..I found some second hand LPs in a rastro. He recorded a huge amount of material in the 50s and 60s. I have about a dozen albums but thats only a small part of his output of over 40 albums.
In 1979, he played 390 concerts, often three a day in different cities...some kind of record I guess.
Montoya family tree is pretty large and famous. Most well known for Farruco and grandson Farruquito, also el Chocolate. Ramon Montoya was brother to Emilia Montoya and her husband Juan Garcia (who raised mules for the Spanish army). It was Emilia "la Tula" who apparently taught Carlos to pick out melodies on the guitar age 8 .(ref. Don Pohren). On the album "Flamenco Antiguo" he is accompanied by his son "Carlitos" doing palmas and finger snaps.
Ramon Montoya was grandfather to "El Farruco" (Antonio Montoya Flores) who was in turn Grandfather to Farruquito. Farruquitos mother Rosario"la Farruca" was daughter of "El Farruco" and father "El moreno" a singer.
Carlos became an American citizen and died age 89. I cant find out much more about his offspring though except he had another son Allan. Another source says he had a third son Raymond who in turn had a son Patric Garcia-Montoya. I dont know if they were flamencos though.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
Carlos became an American citizen and died age 89. I cant find out much more about his offspring though
"Carlitos", Carlos Montoya's son, all growed up now, is a close friend. As soon as I discovered the film I wrote him immediately...he was flabbergasted and thrilled, knew nothing about this until now...his words were "my jaw dropped".
There is some question about whether Farruco was actually of the family, or adopted the name to be more "flamenco". I have to ask Carlos about that, and also about the other brother you mention.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
quote:
There is some question about whether Farruco was actually of the family, or adopted the name to be more "flamenco". I have to ask Carlos about that, and also about the other brother you mention.
I was just surprised by the "Ramon was Farruco's grandfather" part....my friend is a montoya and claimed relation to Carmelita/Lole and the farrucos, but decidedly NOT to Ramon/Carlos side of the Montoyas.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
my friend is a montoya and claimed relation to Carmelita/Lole and the farrucos, but decidedly NOT to Ramon/Carlos side of the Montoyas.
I just wrote Carlos asking him to clarify about Farruco.
If you mean Carmelilla and Lole, I never heard they were related to Farruco, however Carlos Montoya senior did used to talk about being related to Farruco. Hopefully Carlos junior will get back to me shortly.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)
Well kates husband Harold did sound for Farruquito a few years back when he was touring with Antonio Rey and Farruquito was really interested in getting the sleeve notes from my albums. Farruquito himself wanted to know more about the carlos montoya side of the family.
I didnt think there was any question about the Ramon/ Farruco relationship in the dynasty...but happy to be proved otherwise.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
Hi,
My name is Patric Carlos Garcia Montoya and my grandfather was Carlos Montoya. My father is Raymond Carlos Garcia Montoya and he is Carlos Montoyas first (oldest) son. I was asked to come here to give some information about Carlos Montoyas relatives. About a year ago I posted this http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.montoya/780/mb.ashx. This is a copy and paste from the reply I recieved: "You could help us as much as we could help you. Carlos Montoya was part of the most famous living flamenco dynasty in Spain today. He was the nephew of Ramon Montoya, uncle to "El Farruco" who was in turn father of "La farruca" and "Farruquito"...the blood line of Spains greatest flamenco dancers. According to our research Carlos had a son "Carlitos" and another Allan. Can you share your knowledge of Carlos montoyas blood line with us on the forum. Your input would be greatly appreciated"I just recieved a notification that pointed me to this thread.”
Im very impressed about the information I found in this thread and all the knowledge you all have about this. I could write a book about my father Raymond and his father Carlos Montoya, but Im going to try to keep it short. If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask them. I have millions of questions… When Carlos Montoya was 28 years old he had his first child, a son named Raymond Garcia Montoya, born in 1932-01-12. Carlos Montoya had three children: Raymond, Alan and Carlitos. Carlitos and Alan have the same mother. My father Raymond passed away 1998-05-11. Cancer took his life. I was with my father at the hospital (Stockholm, Sweden) when he passed away. When I was sitting at his bed I decided that I have to inform his brothers in the USA. I knew about Alan and Carlitos - I meet them in New York 1982 (I was only 12 years old at that time). I managed to find Alans telephone number in my father’s adressbook, so I called him. I informed Allan that he´s brother passed away and I also said that Raymond loved him very much – he use to speak about him as “his little brother from the USA”. After my conversation with Allan – who was very sad about Raymonds death -I decided to found out more about my grandfather and other relatives. I stumble upon an article in New York times that came to a surprise to me: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/1213.html In the article they mention two sons. Not Raymond. I thought that was strange and contacted ASCAP. After a few months with intense contacts I got the following email: 08/08/2001 09:35 AM “On July 13th, I recommended to the Board of Directors that you and Michael Erikson be named and payed 1/6th successors to the ASCAP membership of Carlos Montoya. You will receive documentation to complete the above transfer very soon.”
07/09/2001 07:57 AM “I have received the documents you have sent, and based upon them, will have no objection to appointing you as one of the successors to the membership. I am currently attempting to contact <lawers> attorney, <name>, to notify him of my intentions (at Mr. <name>,). Once I have done so, and find no objections on his part, we will send you and the other successors documents to be completed and returned to me which will finalize this matter so that you would be paid future royalties”
I was not interested in royalties, just an acknowledge that Raymond was the son of Carlos Montoya. I really don’t know what happened between my father Raymond and my grandfather Carlos. I do know that my father found peace with him after Carlos died. He visited his grave and after that everything was fine and forgiven. There is no bad feelings between my father and his brothers Allan and Carlitos either.
A little summary about relatives to Carlos Montoya: Hes oldest son Raymond Carlos Garcia Montoya, married Anna-Stina Nordmark (in Sweden) and they had one son, me Patric Carlos Garcia Montoya. I’m married to Therese Fridström Montoya and we have two children, a son named Vile Karl Garcia Montoya (5 years old) and a daughter named Yrla Klara Garcia Montoya (10 years old). Karl is the Swedish version of Carlos and Klara is a female version of the name Karl. I gave them the names Karl and Klara to honour my father Raymond and grandfather Carlos. I don’t have any contact with Allan and Carlitos, but I would love to get in contact with Carlitos and hes children if he have any (my cousins).
Please note that Raymond had another son, Michael Eriksson, who is my “half-brother” (not the same mother).
Life is fantastic when you think about it. I´m sitting here typing this and outside is a little boy running around with his Star Wars toys. He got blond hair and big blue eyes and he got the same blood as the greatest flamenco artist of all time: his great grandfather Carlos Montoya.
RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)
Thank you Patric for posting that information.
quote:
If you mean Carmelilla and Lole, I never heard they were related to Farruco, however Carlos Montoya senior did used to talk about being related to Farruco. Hopefully Carlos junior will get back to me shortly.
Sorting out flamenco family trees is always difficult. I always thought that Ramón was Farrucos Grandfather. According to José manuel Gamboas "Guia libre de Flamenco" este gitano(farruco)estaba emparantado con don Ramón Montoya Page 118
In lives and legends by Don Pohren (farrucos) mother was a Moorish beauty from Agache, Morocco, his father a Madrileñan gypsy who made a living dealing in horses and cattle page 203
According to his biography in Flamenco world Sobrino nieto del genial guitarrista Ramón Montoya
I cant make the exact link between El Farrucos parents and Ramón Montoya.
El Faruccos daughters Pilar and La Farruca became respected dancers and he also had a son "Farruquillo" also a dancer of great promise who died in a Motorcycle accident in 1974
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. The cast list doesn't show Henreid or Rathbone, in fact all the actors have Spanish names. 
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