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Doitsujin

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to runner

Beethoven Beethoven...tsss Mozart is waaay cooler. His ultimate masterpiece:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 9:39:21
 
Bliblablub

 

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

It is "Leck mich am Arsch".
And FYI: Bach > Mozart > Beethoven.
nub.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 10:09:22
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Bliblablub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliblablub

It is "Leck mich am Arsch".
And FYI: Bach > Mozart > Beethoven.
nub.



My comments from the first page of this thread.

'Beethoven built a bridge from JS Bach to Wager via Liszt, CPE Bach Mozart and Cherubini and thats more than enough. '

Often classical (ie the 'classical era) composers when they are talking about Bach at all are talking about CPE Bach

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/10673402/CPE-Bach-top-ten-pieces.html

For a successor to Beethoven Prokofiev springs to mind. Brahms and Berlioz and Bruckner are more obvious but less convincing in this role.

Connection of Beethoven to flamenco is, in my opinion, nil. I believe I am entitled to this opinion. I find him compelling enough without needing to authenticate him through the lens of flamenco. If others do then that is up to them.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 10:30:00
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to runner

Ruphus, No I am not ignoring your poet. I mean post.

I'm just trying to keep WWIII - Battle of the Beethoven from breaking out before I address it.

Now, I actually do those stretches already, thank you for pointing them out. I think my problem is more about loosing muscle mass as I merge onto the highway of old fartdom. The lower traps seem to need the opposite of being stretched forward as I do that all day long at the work bench. ( I raised one bench quite hight for doing fret work which helps mitigate the bending over and pulling on the mid back. )

I find the over the head stretch you show first to be good as t also helps with the side and pectorals. My problem seems to get better when I stretch the chest area and sides which in turn gives more 'slack' to the back muscles.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 11:52:27
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

onnection of Beethoven to flamenco is, in my opinion, nil. I believe I am entitled to this opinion. I find him compelling enough without needing to authenticate him through the lens of flamenco. If others do then that is up to them.

D.


That was not my question. The question was what in Beethoven is flamenco in spirit, I did not ask what this connection to flamenco is. My interest is more about what is universal rather than a direct influence or a relationship with flamenco that the composer cultivated. The idea is to see if there are ways of hearing the same feelings in classical music as one might hear in flamenco.

I'm interested in things like: Is flamenco formal like classical music, and is classical music impulsive and driven in way that flamenco is driven. I'm interested more in how say solea sung by Fernanda de Utrera with Marote playing feels 'supercharged' the same way Beethoven's Egmont (not that I think the Egmont is greatest Beethoven) or passages from certain Beethoven symphonies.

Or how really dark abstract parts of string quartets do the same emotional work on you as siguiriyas, or how it does that to me at least.

Those are examples of universals, ways music works emotionally or mood wise that transcend genre. It's easy to make a puzzle of history and cobble together this composer leads to that composer in the same genre, but crossing genres was my questions.

What parts of Beethoven in spirit feels flamenco. And I really only added that component so it would better fit the format of a flamenco website.

----------

Wagner and Lizst can be related to a lot of things: Liszt to Gypsy fiddle playing and Wagner to the chromatic harmonies of Gesuvaldo.....it goes on and on, like a urine squirting contest. I'm interested in something that goes beyond the puppies peeing on the fire hydrants.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 12:22:30
 
Ruphus

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

There is a great difference between stretching ( = of very little primare effect) and muscle prolongation.

Also note a misconception: A posture that includes stretching of an apparatus will not necessarily mean that it works prolonging. Rather with preventing contraction being of opposite effect.

Your case will basically and likely not differ from common inbalance, which roughly means shorting of flexing apparatus ( belly, breast, nape of the neck) and slack expanders ( much of back and front neck / throat).

Thus my recommendation to do those exercises as described m-prolonging exercises.
You will find out very soon whether it is the right or wrong thing. ( Aside from initial pain from unused application.)
Do them for a week ( = each 3 days ) and lemme know whether there is a relief to be sensed already or not.

Further for acute relaxation you might consider yoga crocodile twists like hopefully shown correctly here.
They are easy to do and feeling good, yet very efficient as prophylaxis against stiffening spine as a whole.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 12:34:44
 
runner

 

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana

Stephen, now that you've somewhat tuned your question, my answer would also be "no flamenco" in Beethoven, or, except in some freak occurrence, in classical music in general. The difference IMHO is that there is almost always in classical music the urge and effort and intent to develop, over time, the themes introduced by the composer. It's a balance of intellect and emotion. They have much more time to do it, to work on developing the themes, and work them out over, say, at least 10 minutes, whereas the performer of a flamenco palo seeks to share its emotional gift quickly and directly, with little development (or much less development) within a timeframe of 3 to 10 minutes. Different goals and intentions.

One of the most flamenco utterances in rock is Janis Joplin's Ball and Chain; this is an English-language siguiriya of wrenching, compelling power. Go back to your copy of Cheap Thrills and listen to it again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 22:53:26
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

I actually disagree with that. In flamenco there is long set up and many throwaways before some artists really lay it down.

Dancers especially have a way of building a performance, and one of the most important parts of flamenco is not the shirt ripping out od control yell, it's the silent walk in that tells of the great strength in reserve, which the artist might not even show that night.

When a dancer walks on and does marking steps, that tells you a lot about the dancer. Style, experience, control, ability to moderate through pure stillness to wild action with evenness and expression through the moment.

Or a long fiesta have a trajectory, it can't simply burn at 1000 degrees for 5 hours, it has to have pace. Singers pace themselves too, they hold back and wait, then give then hold back to set else up something up. They let the guitar work to set them up.

Classical era composition devices work differently than flamenco in that they have structures based that are like sonnets- aba aba bca- sonata forms. Flamenco has the same thing, but the forms are just different. Flamenco is a highly formalized music language, so I don't buy into the difference on the level that flamenco performers have to get in a get out fast.

And my question is still not being understood properly. It seems to be taken literally instead of more like a comparison or analogy between to two formal music types. I see flamenco as a art of power in reserve not "expressive' wild abandon, I could argue that Beethoven is far more flamenco than Janis Joplin for many reasons.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2014 23:55:56
 
Miguel de Maria

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

I see flamenco as a art of power in reserve not "expressive' wild abandon, I could argue that Beethoven is far more flamenco than Janis Joplin for many reasons.


But that is a rather "idiosyncratic interpretation". Beethoven at his most dramatic is still almost mathmatically-ordered classical music performed by tuxedo-wearing specialists who aren't really supposed to contort their faces, allow their throats to be choked up in death-rattles, or grab their accompanists' legs during their cadenzas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 0:21:25
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Bliblablub

quote:


RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin)

It is "Leck mich am Arsch".
And FYI: Bach > Mozart > Beethoven.
nub.


So u sign ur post with nub? Nub :))) u r the real nub here the proper old way is " leck mich im and not am arsch". QED.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 4:13:37
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 4:59:58
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

The A major cello sonata- listen to what happens around 5:00 after the pizz. There's some shirt ripping.



Contrast that with Pepe Habichulea por solea. He does not seem to be out of control, on the contrary he's highly disciplined and composed. The same as Rostropovich.
Pepe Habichulea also plays recurring themes and the form make a certain mathmatical sense.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 5:15:10
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

These two elegant gentleman seem to be under control and they are wearing suits.




This however seems pretty dramatic, she stabs him at 1:56- It's a called "Tosca's Kiss". And even though I've seen daggers in the eyes of flamenco dancers, I've yet to see one stab the guitarist- Which must mean flamenco is an art of restraint and power in reserve.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 5:27:20
 
runner

 

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From: New Jersey USA

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana

Stephen, it would appear that you had the answer to your own question in mind all along. I'll stick with Janis as more flamenco than Ludwig. But thanks for posing the "question".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 12:34:44
 
Ricardo

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Rosalyn Tureck is no less voluntarist in her playing, but her more complex, less cellophaned performance, less easily accessible, too, give an image of Bach that is at once archaic, timeless, and sensitive without being expressionistic, analytical without being motorique.


Sorry for off topic again...but eventually it will help me appreciate beethoven, I think, if I can get the interpretations that will grab me best.

Here was a perfect example....I went and hunted for Tureck doing some of my Gould favorites....

Sorry, not even close to the things that grabs me with Gould. It's like saying PDL is derived from N. Ricardo....sure you can make comparisons of sorts, but when we talk about LEVEL I am hearing two different caliburs of artists. I will only point to specifics of expression...timing, and dynamics. Taste is one thing, but for me different levels of ability are another. Again, I guess I must defer to piano players opinion as I am a guitarist...but if this music where done by guitarists Gould's way is what I would aspire too...I will focus on Kempf beethoven too...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 14:49:04
 
Ricardo

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Listen to the 3rd movement of the Tempest sonata that PJN posted and then to the Kempff that I posted... Same score, but so extremely different way of playing and feeling it. But in the end its just a matter of taste and my taste is not any better than PJN´s.


So I spent a lot of time back and forth with those two examples to compare. You are of course right about interpretation being so different...in fact it is so different it almost seems like different compositions! So we have the dilemma now of how did Beethoven really want his music played? A simple issue here...tempo. Is there an exact known tempo for this??? Anyway If I take the best of both interpretations, I am still left wanting something different here. Personally.

Kempff:
I like that it is a steady tempo...more rhythmic. The slow tempo allows me to understand better what's happening here musically/harmonically. But it's too darn slow. The thematic repetitions become monotonous pretty quick...Bach beats this type of thing as he seemed to know how to break the monotony a little better. IMO. But a quicker tempo would really help this. And I might even take liberties with omitting some phrases that repeat (gasp!! but hey, I am flamenco guy LOL) to keep this moving and interesting. Also dynamics, IMO, are pretty flat here. That tritone iv-N2-V-i is so wicked but neither player exaggerates that coolness. And you know Beethoven loved that cuz he keeps repeating it so much.

Gould:
Ok, the tempo fluctuations just simply SUCK. Ugh...awful. But in spots it really moves and I wish he would keep it going. Too much drama with that. BUT...the dynamics he has going on are VERY good IMO. Not forced and dramatic like I often hear with romantic music, but appropriate for the harmonic moves and shifts of modal color. I feel as player, he is a lot more advanced than Kempff (based on this here example) and it's not about technique only, but certainly part of it. (the ascending arps section especially reveals this...)....A good example of the cool dynamics I mean, there is that one spot it resolves to major, then suddenly goes to dark phrygian place or something on the basses, and he really brings that out where as Kempff just plays flat through it. Again wish he would bring out that N2-V-i more but overall very strong command of the music and direction of the piece. But lord those tempo shifts are just ruining the thing and make the stuff going on all vague and bland on the surface. Yawn.

I would want to hear steady tempo, pretty quick, with those interesting dynamics in there....but still compositionally I am not yet convinced he is up with Bach.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 15:52:14
 
runner

 

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Ricardo

It was Georges Clemenceau who said that war was too important to be left to the generals. Similarly, music is too important to the personal enjoyment of the listener to be left to the opinions of musicians, or critics (or anybody else, for that matter). I've found, generally, that in recorded music, whatever we hear first that piques our interest, and then becomes part of our personal musical landscape, is what sounds "right". Sometimes something strikes us as even better yet comes along, and we switch horses. But almost always our attempts to justify/rationalize/"explain" either our new or our old favorites are hollow, ex post facto, and unconvincing. Somebody above did stress tempo as an important factor, and I agree there that a sense of "proper" tempo is probably the quickest thing to lead to our explanation to ourselves on why we like (or don't like) a given performance; I know it's true in my case. But it always comes back to de gustibus non est disputandum.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 22:51:40
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to runner

quote:

Stephen, it would appear that you had the answer to your own question in mind all along. I'll stick with Janis as more flamenco than Ludwig. But thanks for posing the "question".


Sure thing, how could I have taken on the Janis Joplin as more flamenco until you posed it? My answers were responses to Miguel implying that classical is played by stuffy shirts and flamenco is all about shirt ripping and unchecked passion. Nothing could be further from reality.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2014 23:23:21
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 9:40:01
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

I was thinking this out in the shop today. I guess the core of the matter for me is that I don't see flamenco as superior or classical as superior, they are different sides of the same dollar bill.

I also don't see classical as less passionate and flamenco as an art of letting it all hang out. Each art form has away of getting at expressing something through deep and prolonged study. Even Gitanos that learn from their families decide at some point that they will distinguish themselves by studying harder than other members of the family, because that is what it takes to become an artist. Classical music is much the same.

Classical music is very passionate, and often times flamenco is not. Just because someone is wearing their passion on their sleve does not mean it is genuine. I've been to many more phoned in flamenco performances than classical. In flamenco a lot of the drama is manufactured, that artist does that act several nights a month, and sometimes, more often that many aficionados would like to admit, the act is not 100% authentic passion in the moment. Flamenco artists give the audience what they came for, and sometimes they are making themselves do it. I think it is a lot like opera singers who have to perform, do they feel that deep passion every time, or are they such consumate pros that they give a convincing performance? Not that there is anything wrong with that caliber of professionalism.

Many classical musicians are passionate underneath an exterior of repose and calm. You can feel the tension beneath. Is it really fair to box them into a world of stuffed shirts and say flamencos are so authentically expressive because some viewers want to see them as some kind of noble savage ( wish I had a better analogy) - Sure they both are in the right moment, and those are the moments they live for, but the rest of the time they are just doing their jobs no matter how they feel.

-------

From what I have understood and read about Beethoven, he was uncompromising, misunderstood, had been a jilted lover, was deaf and had strong reactions to the things in his life that he had to deal with. He wrote strong passionate music which was at times forceful for it's day. He had tender moments and moments when he called the public a bunch of cattle that did not understand his music. He wrote music you can't ignore if you are in touch with your feelings and have an awareness. Is it flamenco? Of course not. Does he share musical and personal attributes such as iconoclasm, passion, being misunderstood, wanting to engage physically with the world around him because music inspired him to do so? Yes. It all sounds like things flamencos do.

So I will retire now having had this wonderful conversation with myself. Haha. It's good to not have a failure to communicate with oneself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 12:47:37
 
Miguel de Maria

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

"The art of classicism typically seeks to be formal and restrained: of the Discobolus Sir Kenneth Clark observed, "if we object to his restraint and compression we are simply objecting to the classicism of classic art. A violent emphasis or a sudden acceleration of rhythmic movement would have destroyed those qualities of balance and completeness through which it retained until the present century its position of authority in the restricted repertoire of visual images." (wikipedia)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 13:58:13
 
Ricardo

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to runner

quote:

Sometimes something strikes us as even better yet comes along, and we switch horses. But almost always our attempts to justify/rationalize/"explain" either our new or our old favorites are hollow, ex post facto, and unconvincing. Somebody above did stress tempo as an important factor, and I agree there that a sense of "proper" tempo is probably the quickest thing to lead to our explanation to ourselves on why we like (or don't like) a given performance; I know it's true in my case.


I agree in general, and being aware of this I deliberately try to step out of myself and be objective, especially with new music. Further I try devil advocate on things that are the typical public view, when approaching music to critic or evaluate. When it comes to tempo, I am quite sensitive. It doesn't mean however that I prefer only a certain comfy speed I am used to, rather, I am quite aware of what has to change with the music as we deliberately change or compare the same thing at different speeds. Even within just a couple BPM I can notice significant details that must be altered, for better or worse. With classical interpretations, I notice EXTREME examples, and this beethoven is a perfect case.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 15:56:45
 
BarkellWH

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana

quote:

In flamenco a lot of the drama is manufactured, that artist does that act several nights a month, and sometimes, more often that many aficionados would like to admit, the act is not 100% authentic passion in the moment.


On the mark, Stephen! My flamenco instructor and good friend Paco de Malaga once told me that Manitas de Plata often would begin his solo concerts by sitting with his guitar, mute, looking off into the distance in the auditorium for maybe 15 or 20 seconds, and then would suddenly begin passionately playing a fiery piece. It was all contrived, of course, to appear as if he were waiting for inspiration to hit him, and once it did, to begin playing with passion and emotion.

I hasten to add that my comment is not meant as a judgment on Manitas de Plata's abilities as a flamenco guitarist, a topic that has been discussed on the Foro several times. Just a comment to illustrate the contrived and phoney nature of some musicians' attempts to appear to be something they think the audience expects of them. I suspect it occurs in genres other than flamenco as well.

Cheers,

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 16:06:16
 
Miguel de Maria

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

Bill, maybe he was waiting for inspiration to strike. Method acting, so to speak. Maybe he was thinking about wild Spanish horses fording rivers, or torch-wielding thugs chasing gypsy caravans or.... Bridget Bardot.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 17:49:23
 
estebanana

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

Ken Clark? Well he was chatting on Greek art, that and Egyptian art are remote to the meaning of and intent of classical music of Beethoven's era. But I can relate them to flamenco. During Beethoven's life the only real sculptors were guys like Canova, and shortly before Berninini, right? Or there was Franz Xaver Messerschmidt - I don't bother to wiki art references in casual conversation, I remember them from my studies, but you should wiki Messerschmidt and tell me if he is "classical" or not. Messerschmidt had a few quirks, but he seems closer to Beethoven's intensity than Canova.

There are connections between classical sculture and flameoc, as long as it's ok to remain in the art analogy. The Swiss sculptor Alberto Giacometti used to comment about (in the interviews with James Lord. ) how an Egyptian sculpture or Etruscan figure can be perfectly still. - The intent is to set the persona of an earthly yet divine pharaoh into a sculptural form that creates a sense of timelessness or infinity by rendering it with a foot forward; but locked into that step for eternity so that figure of the god-man will always be stepping into the afterlife. (my explanation) - The stillness Giacometti spoke of, ironically in his vision of the form, activates it. The more still the Egyptian sculpture seems to be, the more it actually seems to move, or it telegraphs the instant before a movement which fascinates the viewer.

Giacometti was fascinated by this stillness; I think it is like a flamenco dancer in a section of solea where he or she comes to a complete stop. Mainly I like this in a woman's baile, because these days when men come to a full stop in solea they often do it in profile to the audience with a leg extended to show the beef cake of his own ass. This gives the women in the crowd a chance to turn the tables and enjoy a moment of stillness that telegraphs the male sexuality of the lines of Kenny Clarks cited discobowler. A few male dancers come to mind who give 'em a thrill, and this does fit into todays flamenco in a way I mentioned that sometimes feeling is manufactured.

When you have a moment in flamenco where a female dancer, just my male bias because I don't enjoy todays "serious" male dancers as much as I enjoy women masters, takes a still pose it can be the best thing of the whole night on stage. At least for this aficionado. The other part of a good solea baile is when the singer comes in with the second letra, and the dancer is marking and the anticipation is built that the second letra must be even better stuff than the first, which if she was good at her job totally brought you into the dance space she occupies. Usually what happens next is that she works and works to convince you and bring you more and more into her space and concentration. She builds the second letra gradually and then does a series of cortes', ( breaks) and then even though you know it is coming, hits you with a full frontal stop in the center of the stage and it takes the breath away from the entire house.

Instead of moving right away, out of the stop and full presentation of her as a human being, she lets the moment work for everyone because she and everyone else she danced for earned that few seconds of stillness that she gives up. Like the Greek or Egyptian statue with the leg advanced forward, or arms raised above her head dripping mantone, or flat open hand pulled dynamically to one side of her body she is for a couple seconds inviolable, you can't push her off that pedestal, you can't break her sculptural line. The Singer knows that and he or she freezes with the dancer and empathetically perhaps points an outstretched arm with a open palmed gesture at the dancer from the other side of the stage. They hold the tension of stillness a bit longer than you think is possible. The guitarist waits, the other dancers doing palmas lean forward and stop, straining into her pose empathetically as of they are doing it themselves. If they hold the stillness too long or move out of it the wrong way it ruins it. The dancer makes her exit from the enormous space she created with stillness and carefully marks into, or launches into the next section. Maybe to contrast the stillness some footwork.

If anyone had broken the stillness of the moment she worked to make, it would have been like Ken Clark saying the lines of the discus thrower were violated. Flamenco is classical in that sense, it shares the quality of spareness of line and the delicate natures of the difference between dynamic, aggressive, expressionistic movement and planned stillness that captures and holds space. Classical sculptures being an inert non living material go on keeping the still moment for as long as they exist in space. An excellent masterful flamenco dancer creates the same space with her body and presence, but then after she stops time for two or three or 7 breath taking seconds she is able to start the clock back up again, and that is the human magic of stillness in flamenco.

So the line in classical sculpture, stillness, timelessness- It's all abundant in flamenco, and you can throw in the slow moves and the way time stops when a matador holds a cape still, foot planted, back poised. He waits...and waits...and waits...waits longer....he hangs out there alone waiting. That is put into flamenco too. The stillness in bullfighting, it's much the same stillness in flamenco. You might even venture to say it's classic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 21:31:18
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3218
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Miguel de Maria

At this late date, I don't know the source, but here's a story about Beethoven I read in my youth. Bear in mind that I read only reliable sources.

Beethoven was standing in the hall during the dress rehearsal for the Third Symphony in E-flat. A notable critic stood beside him. In the first movement there is a famous moment, the development section is pretty well over with, there is muttering among the winds and strings with no particular harmonic direction…what key are we in?…I dunno, what key do you think?…must be about time to bring the first theme back around for the finale…we could be in…nope theres that oboe again….a single french horn back in the underbrush says mf "e-flat, g, e-flat, b-flat" the first four notes of the main theme, then the full orchestra lands on the theme, WHAMMO! fff KEY OF E-FLAT, suckas!!

The critic turned to Beethoven, and said in sympathy, "Blockhead horn player, coming in a bar too soon."

Beethoven knocked him down, and strode off in a rage.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2014 23:22:02
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3218
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Bridget Bardot.


Brigitte Bardot, if you please. You are speaking of the woman I loved as a 17-year old university sophomore, when she was 18 and appeared in "And God Created Woman."

Thirty-odd years later in 1988 or 1989 I drove from Santa Barbara down to Hollywood, to see the screening at the Directors' Guild of a restored print of her film debut.

Before the showing a guy read a paragraph or two from Simone de Beauvoir, the famous French feminist. I paraphrase, "Bardot never allowed herself to be made a sex object. Whenever you saw her on the screen, she made you see her as a person."

I can still replay the opening scene, the camera traversing her unclothed perfection as she lay basking in the hot Provençal sun. Definitely a person. But what a body! Sigh…

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2014 2:31:20
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana

I like it, Stephen, you took me there.

Have to admit, dance is not the first, nor the second thing I think about when I think about flamenco. I suppose I am making that big mistake of confusing my CDs with the actual life of a performance. I also have to admit I prefer the male dancers, but I don't recall checking out their "slabs" or remembering that pose at all!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2014 2:52:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin

I like male dancers too, but I had to throw in the slabs and abs comment. :)
You know who I really miss is El Mono, I guess you would call him a fiesta dancer not beef butt dancer.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2014 5:26:45
 
runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Richard Jernigan

I second the motion putting forward the name of Brigitte Bardot; I also was awestruck at the sight. Then we must consider the amazing taste and luck of Roger Vadim--the young Bardot, the young Deneuve, the young Fonda: the mind boggles. O happy man!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2014 12:41:35
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