Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Pratising with metronome   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

Pratising with metronome 

Guys any help with the following appreciated:

Now 21 months from my no previous musical experience I’m addressing the rhythm issue – basically I don’t have any. I can play all sorts of bits and pieces in free time (i.e. Nigel’s time) but some hard work is needed so I:

Bought a metronome.
Chose my 2 Soleas (first piece in “El Arte” and Solea level 0 in “Flamencos Solos” – both JM books)
Set metronome to 72
And practise (armed with parecetamol)

My questions are:

Is that a good strategy?
Are there types of exercises ideal for getting use to playing with a met / gaining a sense of rhythm.? (I find it tough)
Is it better to practise ras’s separate from falsetas? (I can play ras’s quicker and they sound c**p when I play them slowly)

Ta a million – now back to that met.

Todd I tried some of your loops thinking it might be easier but got no where - guess its too soon

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:10:32

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

Have you checked out FlamencoMaster??

Or what a about a Compas CD??

TK

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:16:39
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

You might wanna do diffrent rythms on just one string as well.

alternat between quarternotes and eightnotes. maybe 1-4 bars one each.
then eightnote triplets and quarternotes etc.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:25:25
 
carlos soto

 

Posts: 126
Joined: Oct. 22 2005
 

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

It sounds wierd but to get rythm accuracy you should work playing it as slower as possible, the most important thing while playing is to actually never stop playing so you should play the piece very relaxed from the start to the end without stoping, very slow and feeling the rythm...you should also practice at medium tempo but only go fast when you are perfect with the other slower tempos. Most importantly, you should get the compas of the palo from the percusion, try listen to cante and baile percusion, guitar players often make a more complex rythm so it's not a good idea to get the sense of compas just by listening to guitar players.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:29:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

Just practice the strumming parts of Solea or whatever, keep falsetas separate. Once you get the strumming what you think is even and in the groove, record your self and have someone else listen to see how tight it is. Keep going until it is easy and sounds like the metronome is someone following YOU. It may take some time if you don't have someone telling you where you are draging/rushing etc.

Do the same with a single falseta, or even a single compas of a falseta, same speed as the strumming. Don't add to it until you have the one compas down solid.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:34:33
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to ToddK

Thanks Todd...
Look...Flamenco Master is not a backing loop or anything...
To me it's the first step to making sense of what you are hearing in animated beats and numbers and also allows you to experiment a bit with ideas, not just while playing but also just humming things in your head and "seeing" where the beat falls.
I know Ricardo says don't use Flamenco metronomes etc...
But that's OK to say at his level when things became pretty obvious to him years ago, so it get's hard to remember when things were difficult to understand...

Playing Flamenco to a single "tic-toc" metronome requires prior knowledge of the structure of compás IMO.
Compás loops can be extremely confusing to those who don't fully understand what's going on.
Flamenco Master fills in the part between working out what this compás stuff is...to being able to hear the structure in your head and being able to play to a single beat.

Saying that, I still use it myself to verify ideas and work out stuff!

The main thing is, if you're a beginner.....you can never play out of compás using FM, but you can using a simple metronome.

Thus endeth the Advert LOL! (but it's true IMO!)

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:34:48
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

Thanks guys

Todd any precise products you can recommend? I assume by Flamenco Master you are not referring to Paco Pena's great CD but I can't find reference in google.

Duende I will give it a go. I had wondered should I stick to exercises for a while.

Carlos I will try slow but 72 presumably is not fast? I will get my next lesson organised on my ras as I assume it sounds awful when played slow as my technique is faulty

But thanks again, I'm a bit a lone here so it is appreciated

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:41:34
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

OK I now understand flamenco master. Was it invented in Aberdeen?

Ricardo that helps a lot. I've been keeping the thing together but I feel more comfortable with the ras at 92 or so and the falsetas at 60 or 72. If I rush the falsetas too much all hell breaks out

Thanks

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:47:18
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

I huge importance when it comes to understanding and learning rythm is to KNOW how the diffrent rythms/subdivision are and where in the beat they fall.
I belive that if you wnat to improve your rythm you nead to know what note value your working on and so on

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:47:48
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

I like the flamencomaster. I practise a lot with it. Only problem is that the indicated speed on the flamencomaster isn't right. It doesn't correspond with my normal metronome ( which is "weird metronome"). But I can live with that.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 20:54:41
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Playing Flamenco to a single "tic-toc" metronome requires prior knowledge of the structure of compás IMO.
Compás loops can be extremely confusing to those who don't fully understand what's going on.
Flamenco Master fills in the part between working out what this compás stuff is...to being able to hear the structure in your head and being able to play to a single beat.


Ron;

I have to agree with you 100%.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 23:20:26
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

Are there types of exercises ideal for getting use to playing with a met / gaining a sense of rhythm.?


Magic word - exercises! Yes, picado, tremolo, arpeggio are well suited to a metronome. When it comes to a flamenco piece that is a different issue.

Learning palmas is a good way to learn compas. You can use a metronome to play a piece of music but it can be hard for the beginner to tell where they are.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 1 2005 23:25:45
 
RK II

Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: N.C.............!

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

If you have Tabledit you can program in the beats of any compas...
3,6,8,10,12 and ajust the speed accordingly...
I have a mundo beat metronome ,however I use the Tabledit more often .

_____________________________

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!
Conan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2005 4:51:50
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

It's hard to play in rhythm if you have no concept of what it sounds like to play in rhythm.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2005 14:11:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

I know Ricardo says don't use Flamenco metronomes etc...
But that's OK to say at his level when things became pretty obvious to him years ago, so it get's hard to remember when things were difficult to understand...

Playing Flamenco to a single "tic-toc" metronome requires prior knowledge of the structure of compás IMO.


Grrr! Ok, here are my thoughts on it. The programmable pattern metronomes/Compas CD/Loops are definantly a GREAT tool to use for checking that your transcription or composition has the right number of beats. I use them myself to check that my stuff "works" , plus it is fun. The compas CD or drum machine/loops gives more the actual feel you have to play against. Also you can program a "special" metronome to do an odd time like 7/8, 15/16, or siguiriyas, and listen over and over to ingrain the phrase. No doubt that helps and gives you something a regular click does not give. But to use that ingrained phrasing, assumes that you understand how to subdivide and maintain tempo.

Here is what happens. I hear a lot of folks practice with the accented metronome or compas CD, trying to "fit" what they already know how to play into the compas. They "aim" for the accents and try not to go "out" by adding/subtracting beats. After awhile they develop the ability to listen to the accents, hit them sort of, and never play "out" of compas. But they don't take care about all the space between the accents, the subdivisions, the groove. Once they are hearing the phrase, and never going "out of bounds", they think they have mastered the compas. If their goal in life is to not be a feelingless "machine", then this loose playing is quite satisfactory.

If you practice with just an unaccented click, one beat to the next, taking care about the spacing between beats, feeling each note going to the next, you learn how to groove. And if the music you are learning, beat by beat, is as you understand it to be in compas, and you take care to not add or subtract notes, then you ARE learning the phrasing. No prior understanding of structure required. You simply learn phrasing by the music itself. As you get more control and speed, you can change what the click "means" (one click every 2 or 3 beats, or feel it as the "up" beat, etc). And you do the subdividing yourself without help, only reference of tempo.

Once you can play an entire phrase or falseta, or entire piece in rhythm, feeling each note in the right place, than it is fine and FUN to double check it with the flamenco metronome or compas CD. You can also work with dynamics and such once you are feeling the time correctly. You can play off the accents, etc, but these are advanced concepts.

The other trap with using the compas CD/flamenco met. is the half compas bulerias. Perhaps it is ideal to have a regular click met., a programmable flamenco met or drum machine, AND the compas CD/loops to cover all the bases. And if Flamenco Master can generate the normal unaccented click (of course it can) than that is all you need. (where is my cut Ron? ) But I really think it is important to feel each beat and be able to control subdivision BEFORE trying to force your music to fit into the "compas clock"

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2005 16:41:52
 
Bob Arbuckle

 

Posts: 29
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
 

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ricardo

Hello Ricardo,

First of all, I want to thank you for your contributions to Flamenco Guitar. I find your posts most interesting along with your uploads.

This subject of metronomes caught my eye. I have been using Compas CDs, but wonder if I'm better off setting my standard Met. to whatever BPM is appropriate and set the time signature to zero...no accents. This way I must accent where needed and simply use the met. to focus on tempo. Interesting idea, I'll give it a try. I know what you mean about working with the beat of the met. and it is fun.

I'm an advanced beginner who sits in at a dance class (2nd Guitar). Very enjoyable, this thing called Flamenco.

Bob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2005 18:27:05
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ricardo

Hi Ricardo,
I cannot argue with what you've said...absolutely.
However, (there's always a however in this stuff..LOL!)...
When you are just picking up the basics of this stuff...ie just realized that Soleares, Alegrias doesn't quite fit into the Folk/Rock timing that you are used to playing, then it is particularly hard to "groove" with the tic-toc of a standard metronome.
I understand your idea about playing falsetas exactly as they were written, neither adding or subtracting any notes, so they will automatically fit in to the compás, even though you didn't realize it did, so then you will be playing in time and slowly learn from that.
Yep...that sounds reasonable enough to me.

But in practise, it doesn't seem to be that way.

From a lot of beginners stuff I've heard first hand and via uploads on the Net, notes are missed, added ...and the whole thing is out of compás, whether they are "grooving" or not.
They might be grooving inside their own heads, but it's not Flamenco that would be accepted in Jerez or anywhere, because it's out of step with what everybody else is doing (palmas, baile etc..)

Beginners have a hard enough time trying to cope with unusual chords and fingering on one hand and totally foreign technique on the other, without having to cope with trying to count out 12's and feel the basic accents in the right places!

I have heard very competent Classical players, new to Flamenco play 13 beat Soleares, 'cos for some reason they seem to get stuck on the "3", so add a "silent, non-counted beat" in there so they play the F on 4 and get the rest right...hence 13.

Now that's even when somebody is clapping and counting for them while they play!

So what do I say to them?
Just groove with the inbetween beats?

I'm not knocking you Ricardo, I totally respect and am constantly invigorated by your views...I really like them.

But, what of the folk who can't see you as a teacher every week?
What of the folk who don't have any teacher at all, but are just trying to muddle their way through books etc?

These folk certainly can't groove with the metronome...unless they just wanna do their own thing. LOL!

Most teachers of basic students will clap and count out loud to help the student through a falseta that he's unsure of.
Flamenco Master is no different... it does exactly the same job.
It takes the pressure away from counting, while at the same time allowing you to see and hear exactly where you are.

For the Bulerias 6's...
Well that's maybe a wee bit advanced for basic students, but it's easily enough interpreted by watching what's happening and seeing that the B flat is happening on the 9 instead of the 3.
And also adds interest, to see if you can "square it off" and get it back onto the 3!

I admire your enthusiasm for teaching Ricardo, and I'm sure you are a brilliant teacher..
(I would come!)... but when you are faced with folk who can't count up to 12 and play at the same time...then, frankly a simple metronome is of no use at that particular stage IMO.
Either somebody has to clap and count for them as they play, or they are going to have to use the FM program..
A teacher to clap and count will cost about $30-$40 per hour?
Flamenco Master costs $20 and it's your's for life, to use at any time of the day or night or as the notion takes you!

Just another tool in the armoury, no better, no worse.

cheers amigo,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2005 21:05:47
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

Soleares, Alegrias doesn't quite fit into the Folk/Rock timing that you are used to playing


Ron maybe this in the end will be my big advantage. Can't and never have played the stuff. JM's Soleares was the first real music I saw. Yeah it looked scarry but with nothing else you get on with it. I knew it would be a long hard road.

That is possibly why I'm amazed you talk about dropping and adding notes. I'm not talented enough to do that so I stick with the text - rigidly. And despite everyone saying don't bother with music ntation I studied it as best I could. So what Ricardo says makes sense.

I guess it's horses for courses. But whatever I'm glad I started this post. The ideas help a lot and certainly slowly build more understanding.

One final thought. I think one can rely on the accuracy of mets too much. However I find if you practise in front of them long enough they can't help but fall into line with my immaculate tempo and with time they become more accurate

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 2 2005 21:50:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

I think one can rely on the accuracy of mets too much. However I find if you practise in front of them long enough they can't help but fall into line with my immaculate tempo and with time they become more accurate


Honestly, that is exactly the right attitude. And from anyone's point of view, that is how it happens! Eventually that annoying click stops leaving you behind and starts LISTENING to what you are playing. It is like magic.

I have not heard people adding and subracting notes/beats so much as rushing and dragging. It is the most common mistake in music, nothing to be ashamed of. I do it all the time, but at least try to be aware of it and fix it if I can. If people were really grooving, it would be easy to tell them "hey, why did you do that note twice, or "you did not hold that chord long enough", etc. Even Paco's Tumbona (out by 3) threw us all off because he GROOVES.

More often (with uploads) the music is correct and sort of lazily in compas, chasing the accents, pushing and pulling so it "works". Some guys are more advanced and you can simply point out certain notes that they are feeling in the wrong place, or a couple of rushed slurs or whatever and the rest falls into place. Others really need to slow down and go one note to the next before adding the 3rd note. And if it is wrong, stop and do it again. I am no different, depends what I am working, how used I am to the type of phrase at hand. I am sure Todd is the same or similar.

And, again my opionion, but there really is no need to count and play, in your head or otherwise. Once you can play some rhythm guitar correctly in compas, and you want to go to dance class, then you can learn how the absract numbers fit the choreography. A lot, maybe most flamenco accompanists of cante, and soloists, have no concept of how their music works out in terms of 12's or whatever. The dance accompanists, yeah probably, but even then, not everything. They NEVER learned it, and certainly did not need to count to learn the compas. So why do we?

People learning outside of a flamenco environment with no teacher, need to simply record themselves and be honest. How does it sound, why exactly does it not sound the way I want it to, and how can I fix it? Feedback from others can be important, but ultimately it is YOU that needs to be satisfied with yourself. Metronome, Compas CD, FLAMENCO MASTER can all help, if you use them correctly and be self critical.

$20? Sounds like a good deal to me. After the Tumbona incident I think we should get one for Paco for Chrismas!

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 3 2005 23:13:24
Guest

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ricardo

As usual i you talking a lot of sense Ricardo. one thing i have found with playing to a metronome, is that you have to watch with the mechanical ones, cause some have a tendancy to either slow down or speed up all of a sudden, thats o.k cause they maintain whatever speed they jump to but it can throw you off.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2005 5:37:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

you have to watch with the mechanical ones, cause some have a tendancy to either slow down or speed up all of a sudden, thats o.k


Actually you are right that those wind ups and pendulums do that, but it is NOT ok in my book. Don't use those things, except for as decoration on your grandma's piano. Use a digital click, like the little pocket size ones, or one on the computer like, oh I don't know....the FLAMENCO MASTER! Really man you need that digital eveness the computer can give you for indefinate lengths of time. And don't worry about calibration, some metronomes seem to have been set with a slightly slower or faster 60 BPM than your watch or an atomic clock or cell phone. That does not mean it is changing speed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2005 5:53:36
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to Ricardo

Just a word about digital metronomes. There are a few digital metronomes that you can use with your computer that will jump a beat and do it often. The reason has to do with the computer. One way to reduce this problem is to turn off all applications including your browser. In fact do not have your modem turned on.

There are other things you can do but it depends upon which operating system you are using. Computers like to do little house keeping things behind the scenes. Sometimes these events will cause problems with other applications.

I have several windup metronomes and they do not jump a beat or have a mind of their own. One I purchased in 1964 and it still keeps whatever beat I select.

I have a little Matrix MR-600 Digital Metronome that is small, accurate and easy to use.

It also has some interesting features. As an example you can set it to sound a continuous series of beats with no accent, accent every beat, second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth beat. It has a horizontal row of led’s.

If you choose no beat to accent then the led’s will illuminate from left to right. When you choose to accent a beat the led’s again illuminate from left to right and when the select beat is attained which you want to accent, the led on the extreme left or right (depends upon the accent of the beat) will illuminate red.

In addition there is aural feedback in the form of a sound for each beat and if you selected to accent a specific beat then when that beat occurs the sound changes.

Now you could be like a fellow I played accompaniment with 40 years ago. He would keep time with his left foot. No big deal right? Well, the problem was his left foot was always out of time with the music but he kept good compas. You just could not watch his left foot tapping away without laughing! When I say out of time I mean not even close to an up beat or downbeat. He was everywhere but right.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2005 16:01:15
 
fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

You just could not watch his left foot tapping away without laughing! When I say out of time I mean not even close to an up beat or downbeat. He was everywhere but right.


I found that for me, using the metronome when first starting out was the most discouraging thing I could do. I would try my best to try and follow that annoying tick and the stupid little led, but i was always out of rythm.

I started using my left foot to keep time. i wasnt at all worried about the compas in the beginning...i was more worried about trying to tap my foot at the right time, especially during rasgeados, where there is so much happening. Once I knew where the rythm was and when i had to tap my foot, i was able to¨feel the rythm ïnside. After i was able to feel the rythm and naturally tap my foot, then i dusted off the metro and put it to work. It was a night and day difference. Now i tap my foot WITH the metro, instead of try to play FOR the metro...make sence?

Anyway, it worked for me.

Vic
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2005 17:00:37

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Pratising with metronome (in reply to flyeogh

Good points.

I agree. The metronome balances me.
Its absolutely a must. But many still just dont get it.

I think there are a ton of players out there, who are off, and dont
realize they're off. I want to grab them, and shake them realy hard!!
"use the metronome!!!!!!""

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2005 17:28:17
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.0625 secs.