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keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

black diamond saddles 

thought folks might be interested in this. although these saddles are initially expensive the company says they resist the nicking that occurs with bone so in the long run the cost may even out. a few classical guitar luthiers at another site have been experimenting with them with very positive results. most of the saddles are for steel string but they make a classical/flamenco type.

http://www.obbligatoinc.com/hbr_acous_sdl.aspx
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2014 22:18:35

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

Barnum was right.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2014 22:21:11
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

But they're ONLY $99.99 each, so what's the problem??? Wonder it they accept
bitcoins for payment ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2014 22:39:49
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

Have they been tested by Dr. Diaz?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2014 7:13:59
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3434
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Have they been tested by Dr. Diaz?


Yes, but the result was inconclusive. When dropped, due to the secret form of carbon in them, instead of striking the floor they levitated a few inches above it.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2014 20:27:28
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1749
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Yes, but the result was inconclusive. When dropped, due to the secret form of carbon in them, instead of striking the floor they levitated a few inches above it.


That made me smile on this sad day thanks for that Richard...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2014 20:54:16
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

why don't just go the canadian graph-tech stuff. It solves the "problem" at low cost and have some other pros as well
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2014 22:08:20
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

the material used for the saddle is pyrolytic carbon which is quite different from tusq. here is some patent info

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100132533
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2014 23:25:04
 
estebanana

Posts: 9386
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

I don't believe in witches.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2014 0:33:05
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I don't believe in witches.




Ah Stephen you say that now. But who amongst us is guaranteed to be proof against seduction by the flattering advances of a prominent Warlock ?



A. Skywalker.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2014 0:51:04
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3434
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

the material used for the saddle is pyrolytic carbon which is quite different from tusq. here is some patent info

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100132533


Yes, definitely not the same as Tusq. But there are dozens of forms of "pyrolytic carbon", each with its own unique properties. On their home page, all Black Diamond say is that theirs is neither graphite nor fiber, and that it's expensive to make.

"Expensive" is a relative term. One of the much earlier applications of pyrolitic carbon made U.S. intercontinental missiles much more accurate than their Soviet counterparts.

The nose tips of the conical warheads of U.S. missiles are made by 3-dimensionally weaving the shape with organic polymer fiber, then compressing and heating it to high temperature to drive out the non-carbon elements: pyrolysis.

When the missile reenters the atmosphere, the small rounded nose tip heats up to temperatures hotter than the photosphere of the sun. It doesn't survive fully intact, but it wears off in a predictable way, largely preserving the extreme accuracy with which the guidance system delivered the warhead to its reentry point.

The process was developed by General Electric, which had earlier developed a process to make diamonds. The joke was that the nose tips were a better deal for GE than the diamonds, because they were more expensive.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2014 19:07:56
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Richard Jernigan

richard, the company is in your neck of the woods...might be an interesting field trip given your educational/professional/musical background. their web page does not go into details which is too bad given the cost of the bridge is $99. the owner has sent e-mails to a site where the topic came up and he seems like a reasonable and honest person who understands people might shy away from a high priced saddle.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2014 19:21:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9386
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

There's this stuff called Cow Bone TM - it's made from cow bone by cows, grown internally by cows for cows and classical guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2014 19:23:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 9386
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

quote:

99. the owner has sent e-mails to a site where the topic came up and he seems like a reasonable and honest person who understands people might shy away from a high priced saddle.


He may be the greatest guy in the world, but it's yet one more example of a product in the guitar world that is touted as a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Personally I don't like or buy proprietary products that do not divulge or elucidate what they are actually composed of. The 100.00 dollar saddle out of a material that is so precious that the maker can't tell you what it is? I'll wait for the Chinese knock off, but in the mean time, cow bone.

I used to work in shop where fitting saddles for steel string guitars was bread & butter work, maybe three to five per week or more. The customer does not want to pay that much for a saddle blank plus labor, and it makes little sense given that saddles don't really wear out that fast on steel strings, let alone classicals or flamencos.

The other thing about saddles and steel string guitars is that necks change and players change their minds about saddle height. What if the player wants to change the saddle and has invested 100.00 buck in a saddle and then is stuck wondering if he should have the repairman file his saddle lower? Or should he buy another two 100.00 saddles so he can have a quiver of saddles for 300.00 that he can change?

I make no bones about it, carbon whatever proprietary saddles, trendy- spendy not needed.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2014 19:39:20
 
estebanana

Posts: 9386
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

http://www.pyrocarbon.com/pyrocarbon-orthopedic-implants.php

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2014 1:08:56
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

Wow, how come they can't post an actual picture of the saddle you get?
I may have lost interest before actually finding one, but wtf.
If you want carbon, its cheap, just buy an appropriate "neck reinforcement bar" cut it to length and be done with it.
Excess epoxy has been pressed out of this material, its cured and then baked.
It will sound brighter then bone, but it sucks to cut and file so caution should be taken.

The other issue is this $100 dollar piece of cr@p is supposed to make your guitar sound like its made of wood; not an issue if your Flamenco guitar is actually made of that rare material.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2014 19:10:34
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3434
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Sean

The Black Diamond site says their saddles are not carbon fiber composite.

The owner of the company posted on the Delcamp classical forum that he has long been involved in medical applications of vapor deposited pyrolitic carbon parts--see the link estebanana posted above.

What remains unclear to me is what substrate the carbon is deposited on. I would think the substrate ought to have a pretty big effect.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2014 19:21:34
 
estebanana

Posts: 9386
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

The real problem is stocking them in a guitar shop. They cost 100.00 bucks each? Oh for sure I need a dozen, like I order bone saddles two dozen or more at a time -

Yes I have the extra money to put in a 1200.00 dollar order for saddles. Yeah right.

See saddles are not just saddles, when you work in a shop like the one I worked in in Oakland, we would need to have a file box full of saddles of different sizes to work on all the kinds of guitars coming through the shop. At anyone time there would be half a dozen pre war Martins in various stages of neck reset or lying open with the back off. After that work was done a new saddle would need to be fit. The slots are not all the same size once a guitar gets old. And the slots can be wider on one side then the other and you can to decide on preserving the original bridge slot of shaping the new saddle to fit it. Sp you grab a handful of saddle blanks and start looking for the best one to begin to fit. In terms of this pyrolytic saddles I would have to grab $600.00 worth of saddles. and I doubt they would have any inherent thickness variation I could take advantage of.

And why put a piece of carbon whatever in an old 017 or 018? What is the point? There is no point. Or a 19th century Martin? Again no reason to use a modern material besides bone.

And if this stuff is so hard do I have to charge more for labor to fit it? If the company wants to send me four saddles to test them I'l do that. Let's see, that's a $400.00 dollar test for them. But it seems fair to me to get a sample that large in order to really evaluate the product in a professional manner and see them perform on more than one instrument.

Next I would also say, saddle hardness...hmm are you really going to gain that much more performance on a nylon strung guitar? How about just building the guitar really well? And what is the difference between carbon graphite, which you can make a saddle from and this mystery substance? How do they stack up in terms of cost vs. lifetime? Or in performance vs. cost. All these comparisons are not given, and the obvious comparison to bone is lacking any hard data from extended testing.

Most importantly, does a harder lighter saddle actually help the guitar? The Patent reads like this is a miracle material. The patent says it will make a violin or cello bridge perform better. Oh really? And how to you cut this material to fine shape and tune a violin bridge? And at what cost per bridge do you have to cut them in order to learn how to master making them ? Violin makers a have to cut dozens of bridges in order to get good at it. How much will that education cost? $3000.00?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 2 2014 23:56:12
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

I would have thought that paid testing carried out by a reputable person on behalf of the manufacturer including both scientific measurement and before and after blind testing and recording would have been appropriate.
Instead they seem to be leaving it to the impressions of those willing to pay, and paying that sort of money is good incentive to find that it has improved the sound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2014 3:54:26
 
Michael Jay

Posts: 17
Joined: Oct. 14 2013
From: Palm Beach, Florida

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

I remember reading on the Acoustic Guitar Forum that a retailer in LA, LA Guitar Sales I believe, tested these saddles. The just was that they could not discern an significant difference to justify the cost.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2014 0:13:40
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana

stephen, the issues you raised, especially for older guiitars being repaired, are excellent.

in reading communications from the seller the majority of the shaping is done at the factory as the material requires special tool (this is not a 220 grit sandpaper job from what i gather). one sends in the dimensions and gets the shaped saddle in the mail. i sort of equate the saddle to a bone saddle-- alessi or rodgers tuners vs. high end gotoh tuners. one pays more for alessi or rodgers and may only receive a small fraction of improvement but at a much higher price.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2014 9:22:33
 
estebanana

Posts: 9386
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to keith

quote:

n reading communications from the seller the majority of the shaping is done at the factory as the material requires special tool (this is not a 220 grit sandpaper job from what i gather). one sends in the dimensions and gets the shaped saddle in the mail. i sort of equate the saddle to a bone saddle-- alessi or rodgers tuners vs. high end gotoh tuners. one pays more for alessi or rodgers and may only receive a small fraction of improvement but at a much higher price.


I would not put it that way- I doubt I could work with this saddle company because I need more control over how to shape the material. Guitar makers need to make so many fine nuanced shapes in a saddle to make the it play right it simply does not sound viable to have someone else shape it for you, it's not that simple.

Rodgers or Alessi tuner companies make fine products that work with established standards int eh business, they don't try to be different or difficult with proprietary fitting processes or materials. This saddle is just not a practical idea and I doubt it will go anywhere.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 8 2014 2:19:18
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Richard,

I think You are confusing pyrolytic carbon with pyrolytic graphite.
Pyrolytic carbon is not diamagnetic like the levitating pyrolytic graphite.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 0:43:37
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to beno

Beno,

Tusq is so soft it string gouges even with nylon strings, and if it is so
great why don't more professional's, and others seeking great tone use
it more?

Jim
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 0:46:38
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Richard,

This form of pyrolytic carbons scientific name is (low temperature turbostratic isotropic pyrolytic carbon) its common name is pyrolytic carbon. The material used to cover rocket nose cones is graphite carbon fiber made from mesophase pitch. Guitars, and Ferrari's are made of Turbostratic carbon fiber made from Polyacrylonitrite (pan) better known as Rayon. Dr. Roger Bacon in 1958 at Union Carbide Parma Tech center in Cleveland Ohio created the first carbon fiber.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 1:00:25
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana

Yes we all know about bone, and it's Priest. Bone is the worst myth in the acoustic world. Having said that a guitar can be biased to it, and sound OK but bone will never bring out what it could sound like bone is also a muting material, and does not conduct acoustic energy very well. Bone is just all You know, and all You have ever had too, until now.

Jim
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 1:08:23
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana

Estebanana,

I am not the owner or even an employee yet. Bone is a huge problem tone, volume distortion etc., (string gouging not so much on nylons). I have said over, and over it is pyrolytic carbon, and it is not proprietary at all. Same carbon used in Mechanical heart valves too.

People pay for tone, and have to hear this first I understand that too. We have put saddles on trash guitars, and they were respectable guitars after. Name any other product that can do that

No problem at all to lower the height you just need 320, and then 600 grit silicone carbide sandpaper, and bone saddles on a steel string wear out, or need repair in about 6 months to a year if You play it. Yea bone is a prefect scam for luthier's too You are right about that.

You are just ignorant nothing to be ashamed of but You will learn, and you will have to live with Your post forever too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 1:38:15
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Sean

Sean,
Ok I have nothing to do with the web site, and yes it should have pictures send a email to (CS@obbligatoinc.com).

Carbon is cheap like a 6 carat flawless diamond. Do you think carbon fiber is the only carbon people use or that is is like diamond or pyrolytic carbon? It can be brighter or darker You can choose that with the type of saddle (much to, much to cover here too).

Also how can You or Estebanana judge something You both do not even know what it is or how it preforms. Better yet why has someone else not pointed that out yet?

You also need to watch what you call a piece of crap before you know what You are talking about. The hybrids used for CF guitars was designed to make them sound like wood. The BD saddles are meant to make wood guitars sound like they should have for centuries but never have. I don't care what You Flamenco is made of bone kills the tone, and volume simple as that. You only have bone as a point of reference so how could You know?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 1:55:11
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Richard,

Read the patent, and just so you know the substrate can be removed.
Hollow inserts in a hybrid or a hollow saddle can produce acoustic reverb, and a different removal of the substrate can produce a chorus effect. Estebanana can You do that with a Cow bone? As for the substrate effecting tone We have seen no tone effected with it removed. Energy goes to the least resistance like air pressure or electricity. I think it never even travels through the substrate. The data for this is
in papers on Mechanical heart valve leaflets some where in cyberspace.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 2:05:50
 
guthriej

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Mar. 27 2014
 

RE: black diamond saddles (in reply to estebanana

Estebanana,

In time We will make the solid saddles, nuts, and frets for every instrument.
We are still just a start up You are talking about millions of dollars in inventory,
and we still don't know if the solid carbon saddles will be better than the hybrids
yet. With a very small bone saddle they might. If You did not have the tall bone saddles on a Martin You would most likely never need a neck reset. No saddles are not just saddles.

19th century Martins used Ivory nuts, and saddles. Why use the BD saddles so
they can sound like they should have centuries ago. Martin used ivory for nuts ,and saddles until 1975

The BD material is not very hard at all just a little harder than mild steel.

Yes build the guitar very well then kill it with a muting bone saddle. Hardness is not what makes it conduct energy. The atoms, and how they bond determine how it conducts acoustic energy. A Bd saddle will last the life time or longer of the instrument.

No hardness only prevents string gouging, and has very little to nothing with how it conducts energy. We have not done a Cello bridge yet but many violin bridge retrofits, and they are more open, and much louder, and sustain if You want it too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2014 2:36:32
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