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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking basic info   You are logged in as Guest
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Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus


From there tiring them through brain work should fit better.

You have understood absolutely nothing from this thread so far. So many persons have tried to help you but your brain is a brick and every suggestion you argue against.

You are the one getting tired by doing brain work. Dogs need physical exercise. Its in their genes. They get frustrated if they dont get it. To this you add being locked in and having more males which are intact.
Wake up dude. You are the one creating the problem. Not the molesters passing by and of course not the dogs. Go take a look in the mirror and be honest to what you see/hear.

I´m off this one.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 7:46:16

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

And you are much too convinced of your understanding of the matter.
Eventhough not being certain about whether agilizing them would be finally constructive or worsening; I know what you are pointing to ( exercise needed) but you don´t consider the eventual contra production that I am concerned about.

Had I not even known the basics that you mention so far, I would not had sheltered the pack. And seeing how you rank effects of a daily terror, not appreciating how I have been able at all to manage the situation until now, indicates that it is you who knows too little about the matter.

Keeping lapdogs in a relaxed environment is a bit different from what I am in, you know. Maybe it is missing out on the difference were your peppy-being comes from.

I am already in a demanding situation. If mistaking now by doing something contra productive ... I am thinking of it all the time.
It is two days now that I am all pondering on the situation. What to do, how to do. Have not even touched the guitar.

Further, it is not that they were out of physical action. The pack plays daily. Usually two or three times per day. Scuffling and haunting each other intensively. ( Yeah, you could be amazed about the energy and speed they master already within the given space.)
Sure, could be better still, but it is not that they were lacking action like typical apartment dogs.
Besides, what do you know about live stock guarding dogs and their typical exercise?

Other than occasional hunting of small prey they will lollop with the cattle speed and actually lie down whenever they can. Kangal owners who own large lots tell us that their dogs would not make use of it other than checking the borders from time to time.
LSG-dogs prefer to occupy an elevated spot and stay there for most of the time, as long as things stay in sight.

And finally swinging around something like a flirtpole is the easiest of all things to do for me, not tiring at all. Yet, I may try using it for some days and try to figure whether it be helpful or not.

Brisk smartass, look at your helpful suggestions so far. Nothing.
I bet that I would far out win a contest on cynology with you.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 9:31:36

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Hey Ruphus I'm not sure if these articles are blocked where you are so i will cut and paste them here.

Dog fights between dogs living in the same family happen for various reasons. The dogs may have been living together for a while when suddenly one day a fight breaks out. The dog’s people may be caught totally off-guard and have no idea what sparked the fight. Or you may have recently adopted a new dog as a companion for your existing dog. What ever the case, sometimes fights do occur.

It is very important to understand how to intercede and resolve such conflict early on, as failure to do so can result in development of repeated stressful behaviour, and can quickly escalate to psychological and/or physical harm…to the dogs and yourself.

Usually, with a little proper pack leadership the dogs can learn to co-exist in peace and harmony. As Pack Leader it is your job to coach and mentor your dogs so that they learn how to get along in a socially acceptable manner with each other.

If you have no prior experience with this sort of behaviour and suddenly find yourself in the midst of a dog fight it can be a very stressful experience. When we add our stress to the situation - fights can become even more intense. Stress creates stress.

FIRST LET ME SHOW YOU HOW ONE DOG FIGHT CAN TURN INTO A PATTERN OF REPEATED BEHAVIOUR…this will help you to understand what you should not do!

The first time the dogs engage in bickering you are caught off-guard. You may find yourself shocked, upset and anxious. You may have split the dogs apart and even put them in separate rooms/spaces.

Caught off-guard, and upset you are in an excited-reactive state. The dogs were in an excited reactive state. As the dogs look to you for direction your unintended reaction (fear, anxiousness, anger) reinforced the dogs state. It tells them my human feels the same way I do so I am justified in feeling that I should be excited, aggressive reactive. You led by example – the wrong example. Not your fault – it is natural for people to do react in this way. But, it is important, moving in to the future to learn to be self-aware and self-disciplined in order to have the ability to shut down the situation as opposed to feeding the situation.

If the dogs were separated by being placed in separate rooms while they were still in fight mode - they will likely engage in another fight in the future. Why, because they left the situation still in fight mode - this has taught them that fight mode is normal and acceptable…you have not presented them with an alternate method of coping with the situation.

If instead the dogs are coached to calm down in each the presence of each other and then allowed to remain together they leave the fight mode understanding that good social behaviour is expected and is the norm. They have been presented with an alternate method of coping.

At this point the dogs have acquired psychological trauma to one degree or another and so have you. Dogs are extremely sensitive they read our body language and are one of the few animals that look at the left side of our face to read us. Dogs are also one of the few animals that have a very similar musculature facial structure to humans. When you anticipate a fight, when you are nervous or uncomfortable the split second that thought is in your mind your dogs know, becasue dogs are such acute, sensitive and aware communicators - much more so than the untrained human.

In addition, if your dog happens to have Heightened Sensitivity (HS), your dog will excel at reading your thoughts and your real emotional state even more quickly and adeptly than a dog that is not an HS dog.While HS is an asset when understood, it can lead to more stress and anxiety if proper understanding and direction are not available to the dog(s).

I am going to provide you with a series of links to additional articles a little further below. Read the articles to understand more about how your emotional state effects your dog’s behaviour. These concepts are pivotal in understanding how you, the human create unwanted behaviour in your dog and conversely how you can learn to create good behaviour.

The basis for change must start with you. If you want your dogs to have self control and self discipline you have to start by having self control and self discipline yourself. If you do not apply yourself with 100% dedicated, focused effort and if you are not 100% honest with yourself you will not be successful in achieving a positive outcome. If you cannot change your habits, your dog will have no choice but to continue to behave as he/she is currently doing. Change will not be instantaneous - you have to invest time and honest effort.

If you skimp on reading these articles , if you do not take the time to calmly sit-back and absorb what is being said in the articles, then analyze where you have gaps in your current skill set and start working on improving your understanding and skills.
Dogs are excellent communicators - much better than an untrained present-day human;
And for the most part dogs do exactly as their human tells them to do;
The problem is that most people are not aware or disciplined communicators, and as a result do not understand what they are truly communicating;
The implication ofthis is that it is the human who must be trained;
The dog simply needs to be effectively communicated to;
Self-awareness and self-control, self-discipline must come from the human first and only then can such control be expected of the dog;
Too many people blame their dog, when in-fact it is the human that has created the seed of the behaviour, then enables and maintains the overall environment (physical, mental) that perpetuates the situation;
Want your dog to be better behaved? You have to learn to be better behaved first - this is an example of the importance of following true and pure logic - dogs love logic much and hypocrisy not at all;
Dogs have more patience than most present-day humans;
Patience is not just waiting polity for something you want;
Patience is also having the great will, determination and persistence to adhere to something you want, need or think you require, think you need.
The implications of the above are many - the most difficult of which for many people is the concept that:
It is not your dog that is bad;
It is that you misunderstand and misdirect your dog, and;
Then blame your dog for your lack of understanding;
Leaving your dog no choice but to continue on with its current behaviour.
Treats do not correct imbedded, intense behaviour nor does forceful dominance - employing intelligence which matches a dog's intelligence corrects behaviour. Dogs are much more intelligent than most people realize and until one understands that concept you will struggle to correct unwanted behaviour. Read the following articles...

Starting with these three...
Stress, Anxiety, Depression, Agression in Dogs - Signs, Symptoms, Treatment
Is It Possible that Training our Dogs is Really Wrong? - Yes! When You Fail to Train Yourself First
Types of Aggression In Dogs and How To Avoid Creating It

Then These...
Do Dogs Have an Edge Over Humans When it Comes to Intelligence
Is Your Dog Hyper, Insecure, Anxious, Aggressive-Reactive? These can be Signs of a Highly Sensitive, Intelligent Dog
Dogs Are More Sensitive Than Most People Realize
How Dogs Assign Respect
Dogs Are Opportunists - Good or Bad?
Be Your Dog's Pack Leader
Debunking The Alpha-Dog Myth
Are You Directing or Arguing With Your Dog?
Affection and Your Dog - provide it at the wrong time and you create problems
The Golden Rule for Dogs
Creating a Respectful Bond with Touch and Play, At the Right Time, Right Way
Do Dogs Smile? - yes you do need to read and understand this
Intelligence of Dogs


#1 By taking full responsibility for the situation:
Do NOT blame the dog(s);
Change must start with the human's acceptance that the human has a huge role in the development of behaviour in their dogs - good and bad;
This is the first step in enabling change - and it is a hefty responsibility as you must first look at your own weaknesses - help for that further below;
Many people choose instead to ignore this truth as to accept it means you must be selfless;
Dogs excel at being selfless, it is an attribute of the species;
Humans more quickly embrace selfishness - we have to work at being selfless, and that is a trait of our species;
Most humans have to work hard at learning to have self-control;
If you are not quite there yet you may be inadvertently creating the same condition in your dog while blaming him/her for the situation;
If you have or when you do take the time to read the articles listed just above you should now, or will understand this important truth;
If what I have just written in these bullets has irritated you, made you feel indignant or even angry - then the trigger for your dog's unhealthy behaviour is now obvious.
If all you are going to do is use physical force to attempt to intercede and stop fights you will fail to change your dogs' behaviour for the better. You do not have to be a physically large person to achieve success (teaching your dog's not to fight). I am only 5'-4" and about 110 pounds. I work with dogs that are much larger than I am. What you have to do is train yourself first...psychological control of yourself is a powerful asset.

Many people tell me that they put their dog on it's side and it still wants to fight. Well no kidding - you skipped 99% of what you need to do and simply tried to use physical force to roll your dog. You did not coach and mentor your dog and you did not change your own bad habits - you simply employed physical force - you became aggressive and overly physical - you matched your dog's state. I very rarely ever roll a dog on its side and I work with a lot of dogs. Including dogs that are very-reactive, dogs that have learned to control humans by deploying very aggressive tactics. I also work with a lot of people and most people have no idea what patience really is. Patience is something that many people assume they have, but after working with me they realize that they were actually very impatient. The solution to the problem of dogs fighting will not be found by simply pinning your dog on its side...

#2 - You need to do is train yourself to be aware of your own emotional state...
As you must lead by example it is very important that you leave all fear, frustration, tension, behind you. Disengage your emotions and engage your working mode. Working mode must be calm, confident, assertive, directive…no emotion, no anticipating and imagining that the dogs will behave badly. Instead you must feel with every fibre of your being the expectation that your dogs will listen to you…that is leadership.

Your dogs will only listen to you if you are truly and deliberately calm-confident. No panicking, no fusing, no scattered panicked movement…just deliberate, confident, directive calm action in your movement; in your tone of voice; in your thoughts, in your breathing in your mind, your emotions and your body language. Whatever it is that you want your dog to be you must be that thing first. So, if you want calm you must attain that state first yourself - thereby exemplyfing the concept of true leadership.

If you relax and believe that the dogs can get along it helps them to get along – surprisingly so! The thoughts you cary in your mind and heart change the minutia of your unconscious body languade, It is also very important to learn how to stop the reactive - aggressive behaviour before it escalates.

Never, ever try to stop aggressive behaviour from an angry or tense state of being – you just reinforce the aggression in your dog as you are in the same state as the dog.

Do not look to dominate your dog, but instead to coach and mentor it. To coach and mentor you must be calm, patent and confident.

Learn to observe and read your dog – don’t anticipate but you must strategically address when behaviour starts. If you anticipate you will spark the incident. Instead just observe your dog’s body language. If you see that your dog is starting to fixate – disagree before the behaviour escalates.

To disagree - be calm confident and touch your dog quickly, firmly with the tips of your fingers at its waist or neck (this is giving the dog a quick nip or bite) and say ‘hey’, or ‘no’, or ‘shh’. Make sure the intensity of the bite and your voice matches the intensity of the dog – but do not match its state…be calm, confident. Dogs that are in a fixated over-threshold state are much like a person in a rage state - they are focused on the attack, flooded with adrenalin and may turn on and bite another dog or person who gets into their physical space - for this reason it is important to be aware of a) how you place yourself into the situation and b) your own state of mind - emotional neutrality is a situation defuser (directive calming), while being emotional is a situation escalator (exacerbates the rage state).

If you do not stop the reactivity in-time and the dogs engage – do not yell – just quickly but calmly move-in. Pull the dog (who is the aggressor) off of the other dog by getting a firm hold (but its collar if it is wearing one) and lift the dog straight up. Pulling the dog horizontally away can cause skin tearing/damage to the other dog.

Pulling up forces the dog to release its hold on the other dog, as the alternative is for the dog to choke. Once the dog has released its grip on the other dog, maintain your hold of the aggressor dog and put him on his side.

Hold him there until he calms and stays still - remember do not be angry - be calm, directive and patient. While doing so direct the other dog to calm – ‘sit’. At this point you need to be calm – not excited, do not remove any the dogs from the room. Keep the aggressor on its side…be patient, wait until the dogs eyes start to close…at this point its rage has passed. You can then let it sit-up. If it is not calm put it back on its side. When calm let the dog sit up…and have the other dog come over and sit quietly or stand quietly in calm together.

Both dogs need to leave the situation:
One - not having dominated the situation;
Two - calm and behaving in a socially acceptable manner;

The dogs will start to understand that:
One - reactive behaviour is not acceptable;
Two - that the outcome will always be the same – calm, social interaction will be accepted, any other behaviour will be addressed and corrected.

If you have stopped walking your dogs together you also need to start walking the dogs together again. If you are calm, confident and not tense they will accept being walked together and working together. You have to normalize their being together again.

Just remember no tension on the leash, no anticipating fights – your dogs will relax. If one does start to get reactive just touch and direct ‘no’ or ‘shh’ immediately. Have a stronger will, more determination, patience and persistence than the dogs have.

Timing is important and so is consistency. Catch the behaviour before it escalates and the dogs quickly learn not to bother pushing the threshold. Dogs prefer to receive calm, firm, fair direction, have rules, boundaries and limits - providing real leadership to your dog allows him/her to relax.

Dogs get into fights when they:
Are insecure - most aggression has its root cause in insecurity;
Get over-excited, flooded, overstimulated;
When a dog does not have to 'ask' permission before proceeding (i.e. dog bolts out the door, pushes past you down the stairs, grabs food the second the food drops to the floor etc.) - boundaries and limitations do not exist.
In the absence of leadership an unbalanced dog may seek to correct another unbalanced dog;
When the human fails to provide clear communicative direction...
5 Steps to a Direction

Providing a direction to your dog consists of five steps, not one…
STEP 1 - Get your dogs attention;
STEP 2 – Tell your dog what you do not want him/her to do;
STEP 3 – Tell your dog what you do want him/her to do;

STEP 4 – If your dog is not quite understanding or responding to your direction :

1) Take a look at how you are directing your dog - are you emotionally neutral? Or are you emotionally engaged? You should be emotionally neutral.
2) You may need to firm-up the direction. Make sure you are what you want your dog to be. For example if you want your dog to be patient you must be patient first! If you want your dog to be calm you must be calm first. Stand grounded, breath deliberately and deeply, give the command and then follow the command up by taking another deep breath.
3) Remember to hold/sustain the command.
a) Give your dog the grace of time - i.e. 10 to 15 seconds to respond;
b) This will give his/her brain and body time to coordinate;
c) By waiting and holding the command you also reinforce the command indicating that you are serious and committed to seeing it through;
d) You want your dog to stop and think – you must stop and hold.
e) While waiting do not repeat the command.
4) If your dog chooses to ignore your direction then go to the next level of command…for example you
a) Snapped your fingers to get your dog’s attention;
b) You indicated to your dog with your arm/hand that he/she should leave the space, and go sit down and your dog has refused to follow the direction…then the next level of command could be to move into the space your dog is occupying and provide direction a), b), and c) again. If your dog still refuses to comply go to the next level of direction – herd your dog out of the space, show it where you want it to go instead and show it what you want it to do instead…i.e. sit and stay.

STEP 5 – If your dog goes back to adopting the unwanted behaviour go back to Step 1 and follow through.

Be That Thing That You Want Your Dog to Be
Lead by the Right Example
Remember if you want your dog to be in a certain state you must be that thing first! You can’t teach your dog something if you are in the same state as your dog.
Direct Effectively
Use the least amount of Intervention
Don’t over-direct…always use the minimum possible intervention, and if you don’t get the looked for response firm up your command. If you start out by directing at maximum intensity you will always have to use maximum intensity even for low level situations.
Match Your Dog’s Intensity – Not His/Her State
Be the Polar Opposite
Don’t direct harshly – the intensity you put behind a direction should match – not exceed your dog’s intensity. If you are too soft you will not get your dog’s respect if you are too harsh, too intense you will create insecurity and/or aggression.

Never match your dog’s unbalanced state by bringing emotion (i.e. ire, frustration, anxiety, etc.) into the situation
Watch Your Mouth!

Be Aware of your Body Language
Remember your dog can read your face – your stance…for example compressed lips mean tension, anger, frustration, open your mouth slightly, breath and this will naturally relieve some tension.

Watch Your Stance – Ground Yourself!
Be grounded, own your space
Stand in a grounded manner – one foot slightly in front of the other and to the side, shoulders squared but not tense, breath.
Less Voice, More Body Language

1. Dogs understand herding – herd your dog.
2. Dogs are evolved to see movement – if you are going to point with your arm/hand then:
a) Make sure you add movement to the gesture;
b) Make sure your hand is in your dog’s eye-line (not over-top of his/her head, etc.)
3. You can use your feet and knees to direct;
4. Own and Use Your Body to Communicate:
for example…
a) Don’t withdraw your hands, instead put them on your hips;
b) Don’t give your space up to your dog, hold your ground;
c) To take up more space, move into your dog’s space – for example, you can lean into your dog’s space by bending one of your knees slightly or moving your foot.
d) You can apply slight pressure through your hand, knee, leg, etc. to get your dog to yield space;
e) You can give your dog a quick little bite with your fingers (always make sure you are emotionally neutral when you do this).
Don’t Argue with Your Dog, Direct Your Dog
Arguing is not Directing
Remember – be aware of your thoughts and your actions:
a) If you are thinking and preparing for an argument, you will get an argument… instead you think ‘no arguing, no debating, just do this, I expect no less, this is your new normal’
b) If you look at your dog with a sustained and intense gaze because you are expecting your dog not to do as you have asked your dog knows you lack confidence, your dog knows you do not expect him/her to obey.
c) Learn to create normal – instruct, feel and think firm and go about your business…if you must stand and watch your dog – your dog has stalemated you!
Stay Connected so Behaviour does not Escalate
Be fair, be supportive
Remember to give your dog cues and reminders so you don’t set him/her up for failure.
If you see your dog is getting anxious, starting to pace, starting to alert, starting to fixate help your dog!
Be Aware of When Your Dog is Asking a Question/for Direction
Be Aware of When Your Dog is Trying to Connect with You
Remember a dog will look at you for several basic reasons…
a) To ask a question;
b) To ask for direction;
c) To see how you are feeling (this is a subtle way of receiving a type of direction);
d) To manipulate, demand, control;
e) To challenge you.
You Decide
Don’t allow your dog to decide
If your dog is demanding attention, don’t give your dog affection, don’t touch – instead emotionally and physically disengage and direct your dog to move out of your space and go sit-down. You decide when you give your dog affection/attention – don’t let him/her decide.
Don’t Let Your Dog Stalemate You
Don’t Repeat, Don’t Argue,
Remember quick tug and then immediately release tension on the leash. Sustain pulling will cause your dog to shutdown, dig-in and argue with you.
Don’t Dance
Don’t Dance with Your Dog
Move with deliberate, considered confidence – don’t wave your arms around, move frantically…if you do you will be matching your dog’s excited state.
No Sustained Pulling
Don’t Create Shut-Down, Don’t Cause an Argument
Remember quick tug and then immediately release tension on the leash. Sustain pulling will cause your dog to shutdown, dig-in and argue with you.
How You Touch Your Dog Matters
Excited or Calm and Therapeutic
If you ‘pat’ your dog with high-energy you will create high-energy. If you instead touch your dog with slow, slight pressure you will relax your dog.
Play Should Have Structure
Take Advantage of Play Time
Don’t let your dog ‘go too high’ during play…set rules for play…be calm, wait for your dog to calm, wait for your dog to make eye contact with you and then play (i.e. through the ball). Then get your dog to bring the ball back to you, yield the ball to you, sit and calm – then start the exercise again.
Don’t be Hard On Yourself
We can’t always get it right
Learning to communicate properly and understand your dog is a process that requires patience and time. If you are tired give yourself a break.
Don’t indulge in Guilt and Feeling Sorry
Remember if someone feels sorry for you it takes away your self-confidence – don’t feel sorry for your dog, instead remember that your dog needs you to be firm and confident. Remember that one of the biggest forms of affection you can give your dog is your strength in the form of calm confidence…create ‘normal’ for your dog.
Don’t Let Anything go Unaddressed
Stay on top of things
If you let an unwanted behaviour go unaddressed:
a) You lose your dog’s respect;
b) You set your dog up for failure;
c) Remember undesirable behaviours enable each other ;
d) If you take the time now you will spend less time and effort later :>)


Bad Habits to Good Habits

Neither you nor your dog learned your portfolio of bad habits in a day – so is it fair and reasonable to expect to de-construct all those unwanted habits immediately? NO. Some habits will fall away quickly while others may be stickier – give it time. Your abilities need time to grow and you need to build a firm foundation of ‘gateways’ for your dog. The speed of positive change is predicated upon many things such as …
- Most importantly your ability to direct properly =
a) Control of your own state of mind, self awareness and self-discipline;
b) Ability to employ proper communication techniques such as body language v.s. voice;
c) Your ability to observe and open-up your senses;

- How imbedded the behaviours are – yours and your dog’s;
Perspective is Everything – Remember…
Oh no!
Yes!!! …
A Chance to Get This Right:>)
If you look at something with dread, avoid it; hate it you and your dog will never learn how to deal with it. When you instead change your perspective and look at that thing as an opportunity to work with your dog, as an opportunity to learn, as an opportunity to ‘nail that thing’ you consciously change your state-of-mind and sub-consciously change the nuances of your body language thereby freeing yourself to move-forward and succeed.
Your Dog May Protest
Heck if you had always gotten away with something, wouldn’t you protest?
1. It is very normal for some dog’s to react and then not want to take direction from you:
a. First because you never stood–up to him before;
b. Second, because you were starting to fear when he ‘flashed-up’;
c. a. and b. create a real lack of respect as they allow the other person (dog or human) to take over and control you both physically and psychologically;
i. Their methodology is to:
1. Challenge you;
2. Study your face, body, voice for reaction...hoping that you become emotional;
3. Waiting, anticipating that you will get vocal and invite an argument and or give in to defeat.
2. Once that pattern is set-in place the person who has gained the power is going to do all they can to maintain that power – is going to be reticent to give-up the power.
3. Your dog may resist my direction less than he/she resists your initial efforts to direct because:
a. I did not debate;
b. I was not emotional;
c. I simply said (body, mind, audio) ‘don’t do that’ and the force/attitude/direction behind my words/direction to them is indelibly, unemotionally firm…so for example what is in my head when I am directing in such a situation is one or several of the following… with a slight smile in your mind, without anger, ire or dominance, just with matter-of-fact ‘that’s the way it is’;
i. ‘Don’t think so’…
ii. ‘End of’;
iii. ‘Not going to happen’
iv. ‘I am not asking you to do it, I am telling you to do it’
v. ‘This is not a debate – just do it’
vi. Don’t care what you think, just do it’
4. So to Fix the Challenge…
a. Just chose one or several of the phrases noted above under ‘c.’ or make your own version – put the phrase in your mind and keep it there while you directing;
b. Breathe and relax your tense mouth and tense eyebrows :)
c. Disconnect emotionality – shut the emotion off and just go into working mode (as you would at work) – neutral!
d. Stand grounded and stand your ground – physically/mentally;
e. Say it firm and say it /indicate it once, then wait those few seconds (part of holding your ground);
f. Be strong in your will, your conviction, your patience (breath), your belief in yourself, your confidence – this is what your dog wants to see from you – your indelible commitment to ‘meaning it!’
g. Please remember your dog probably tried to resist my direction at first too!
h. Remember what I do – hold my ground, be respectful but firm – what did you feel from me…’don’t care what you want - only care what you need and this is it’ :>)
5. Your dog is simply testing you. He/she wants to see you – needs to see you:
a. Firm-it-up just a bit;
b. Needs to see you leave the emotion behind and replace it with indelible strength of conviction;
c. Portray in every fibre of your being no fear, no ire, and directive ‘just do it’
6. He/she needs to see you do this with consistency and he/she will go…

‘Woa, woof I ain’t gonna do that again ᵔᴥᵔ no point I ain’t gonna get away with it, and my human is fully capable, able and will have my back, lead me, protect me – I don’t have to make my own rules anymore, woof, sigh, now I can relax!’
Don’t Give-in, Don’t Give-up
Patience and Determination
Be persistent – dog’s are, it is one of their best assets! A dog rarely ever gives up on you, don’t give-up on your dog. Remember this is a test of wills, patience and determination. Don’t give-up and don’t give-in – when you do you leave no chose for your dog…he/she will have to make –up their own rules.
When you are directing your dog…
- Don’t ever let yourself think I am failing; I can’t do this, etc.
- The second you allow such a thought in your head – the second you allow such a thought to take over, the second you give-in, give-up, back down, give ground your dog knows…
- Remember that I must work through each and every issue with your dog just as you do…so think like I do…
a) ’I will feel my way thru this and find what works best’;
b) ‘ I will not give-in nor give-up as your life and well being (doggie) depends on my strength of will, my patience, my determination;
c) ‘What I do – I do for you…whether you (doggie) currently realize it is what you need (at this moment) matters not, what matters is that I get you through this from A to Z;
d) You will then see you have a better way to navigate through this situation – I have your back – I will lead you with respect, fairly and firmly…
e) And so it will always be ᵔᴥᵔ


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 9:50:28

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Here is another one.

Following are excerpts from a recent PetLife article (part 1), a summary of a video program from trainer Ian Dunbar (part 2), and quick tips for avoiding and stopping fights between dogs (parts 3 and 4).

Also, be sure to see last week's tip about Bite Inhibition. You can find it on the PAW website under Pet Tips. Also, watch for next week's tip, which will cover ways to reduce aggression between dogs in the same household.

1. From "Ready to Rumble" by Cherie Langlois in the February 2003 issue of PetLife:

While some breeds developed for fighting or protection may be more included to quarrel, dogs of any breed can get into fights. "It depends more on the dog's temperament, training and socialization," said trainer Adam Katz of Austin, Texas, owner of A dog who is not well-socialized might have dominant body language and stare other dogs right in the eyes, which is perceived as a direct challenge.

It's a mistake to assume your dog won't fight. "The issue isn't whether your dog is or isn't nice; it's how the two dogs' temperaments interrelate," Katz said.

Said Trish King, animal behavior and training director for the Marin (California) Humane Society: "These dogs aren't necessarily aggressive when they're off leash, but tend to lunge, bark and posture when they are on leash."

Avoid scary conflicts by staying alert and keeping your dog under a short leash and voice control at all times. Some owners take the additional step of not allowing their dog to look or sniff at another dog.

Teaching a dog early on that he can't visit with every canine he meets is one good way owners can prevent leash aggression. Teach the dog not to pull on the leash, and to sit and wait for permission before greeting another dog. Basic obedience training and behavior modification with positive reinforcement can help prevent fights. Katz said, "If the dog is looking at me and paying attention, he canUt engage another dog."

Along with leashing and good training, owners can avoid conflicts by keeping their pets from roaming, neutering young dogs before one year of age, and socializing their dogs during the critical puppyhood stage between six to eight weeks of age.

Some fights occur with little warning, but often you can spot behaviors that signal trouble ahead, so use that opportunity to keep a fight from breaking out.

Watch for these behavioral cues to see if a fight is imminent:

* A hard, unwavering, targeted stare.
* Dominance posturing, such as mounting.
* Stiff body movements.
* Extreme body language: the tail held stiffly up or down, lips pulled tight against the teeth.

When facing an oncoming aggressive dog, you might shout "NO!" to repel him. If the dog continues to approach, drastic measures may be needed. Katz suggests owners carry a stun gun, which they should aim into the air, not at the dog. The stun gun hits sound frequencies that dogs hear, which can stop a dog from fighting. Another technique is to spray cayenne pepper at the dog's nose and eyes (however, pepper spray can cause injury and further anger an aggressive dog). King prefers a harmless citronella spray repellent called Direct Stop.

If a fight ensues, keep in mind that dogs tend to establish a social hierarchy soon after they meet. Scuffles to determine top dog can involve heavy barking and growling. However, real fights can take place, in which a dog latches onto another dog or otherwise injures him. Intense fights can be silent.

If you intervene, do not put your hands anywhere near the dogs' heads or get between them to avoid getting bitten yourself. If another person is available, King recommends each person picks a dog and grabs its tail or hind legs, pulling back and up until the dog loosens its grip. The grabber should then move away quickly. There is some risk, since dogs will sometimes turn and bite whoever is hanging on to them.

Prevention, of course, is the best approach. "Prevention -- keeping your dog safe and providing good leadership -- is the most important job a dog owner has," said King.

2. From Dr. Dunbar's Video "Dog Aggression: Fighting":

Dogs react fast, and sometimes get angry toward each other, just like people. The difference is that dogs respond immediately then, typically, forget about it once the disagreement is resolved.

Some 90% of a puppyUs time is spent biting other puppies. This is part of developing bite inhibition, in which young dogs learn how to control their jaws. The optimal time for dogs to develop bite inhibition is between two and four and a half months of age. Dogs need free play as puppies with puppies and mother dog to develop their bite inhibition. (See last week's Tip on Bite Inhibition, which is posted on the PAW website under Pet Tips.)

Dunbar cites some general principles:

* Dogs initiate fighting when they do not feel secure around other dogs.

* The top dog knows he's boss and usually is able assert rank within 3 seconds. Usually, the top dog does not have to resort to actual fighting to prove his point.

* Middle-ranking order male dogs feel insecure and in need of proving something.

* Females have the potential to engage in fights, and to be as tenacious as males. When females fight with female or male dogs, often it's to gain a possession.

* Dogs perceive neutered dogs as less of a threat. With male dogs, neutering reduces the chances dogs will bite and neutering is linked with a reduction in several kinds of aggression.

* Dogs may also display aggression to dogs who approach them outside, especially when their owner gets tense in the presence of other dogs and yanks on the dog's collar. For example, the dog may be communicating to the other dog: "Go away! When dogs like you appear, my owner gets upset and gives me a punishment."

* Dogs growl at younger dogs in an attempt to put youngsters in their place. By the way, many male dogs have testosterone peaks between 10 months and one year of age, explaining why they seem more hyper. Dogs can smell testosterone.

* When dogs growl at younger dogs, this leads to the development of active appeasement on the part of the lower-ranking dog. The lower-ranking dog learns to show deference, which signals that he understands and respects the hierarchy. So then, typically, the older/more dominant dog will let the youngster play.

* Playing is more than having fun for dogs; it's a way to compete and a way to establish rank.

Positive steps you can take:

* Socialize your pup. You can keep him nearby when you're home by tethering him to you with a leash. Praise the dog whenever he does good, and whenever he stops aggressive look or other undesirable behavior.

* Most people ignore good behavior. But it is important to praise and reward good behavior in order to encourage the dog to repeat it. Solicit and praise good behavior, instead of punishing the bad.

* Dunbar suggests teaching the command, "GENTLY," which can be useful in diverting dogs from a fight. "SIT" and "OFF" are also important commands. It is important to be able to redirect your dog's attention to you -- and thus away from another dog who may be engaging in challenging eye contact and aggressive or otherwise undesirable behaviors.

* Do not tense up with the leash or yell during the approach of another dog. That can make your dog associate the sight of another dog with punishment.

* Remember that timing is everything, and that it is crucial for you to develop the ability to redirect your dogUs attention back to you.

By the way, Dunbar cautions against using tranquilizers, which affect bite inhibition (a learned behavior). You want the dog to be able to inhibit his own bite.

Some people attend "growl classes" with their aggressive dogs, at which they work on moderating the dogUs reactive behavior. The dogs wear muzzles and the owners keep them on leash until the end of the classes, at which point participants work the dogs off leash. DunbarUs video included footage from a "growl" class.

3. Tips for avoiding fights:

* Behavior modification work with your dogs is essential. Be sure to watch for next week's tip, "Aggression Between Dogs in the Same Household."

* Never allow any dog to achieve dominant status over any adult or child. If dogs always know their social ranking and are never allowed to challenge people, they will usually be good family members, advises Gary L. Clemons, DVM.

* Feed dogs in separate areas, rooms or in their own crates.

* Do not toss treats out to dogs. Instead, have each dog obey a command, such as sit, individually, and give the treat right after he/she obeys.

* If any chance dogs will fight over toys, don't give the dogs toys unless they are in separate locations.

* Do not give dogs toys that fanatically excite them.

* Carry a small, automatic umbrella. You can pop this open between your dog and an incoming one of you fear a problem. It provides a surprise and a hiding place.

* Some dog handlers carry water pistols and water cannons.

* One Great Dane owner uses a cookie sheet to deter dogs from engaging in a fight. She has slipped the pan between the aggressing dogs, as well as banged on it to create a distracting noise.

* One multiple dog owner always keeps a sturdy buckle collar on the dogs, which provides a sturdy handle if needed.

* Don't permit tug-of-war or aggressive wrestling. These games can quickly escalate into a fight.

* Don't give dogs rawhides, pig hooves or other highly coveted goodies. At the very least, don't allow dogs free access to them. The dogs are likely to fight over them.

4. Ideas for breaking up a fight:

The way fighting dogs should be separated depends on the individual dogs as well as their typical breed characteristics. For example, pit bull specialists advise use of a strong "breaking stick" inserted into the mouth of bull-breed dogs, but not for other kinds of dogs.

Be aware that a dog embroiled in a fight might bite someone who grabs him or who comes between the fighting dogs.

* Try pouring water over fighting dogs. Turning a hose on the dogs works better than dumping a container on them.

* Some dogs will stop fighting if you squirt them with a water bottle filled with vinegar, which breaks their concentration. Some folks use water cannons, citronella spray, pepper spray (note: pepper spray, or mace, can cause injury and worsen the situation), airhorns or even stun guns.

* Avoid putting your hands near the dogs' heads or getting between them to avoid getting bitten yourself. If another person is available, Trish King recommends each person picks a dog and grabs its tail or hind legs, pulling back and up until the dog loosens its grip. The grabber should then move away quickly. There is some risk, since dogs will sometimes turn and bite whoever is hanging on to them.

Another technique for breaking up a fight when two person are available: One person attempts to immobilize the hindquarters of the dog while grasping the collar from behind. For certain breeds such as pit bull breeds, it is recommended to wedge a wedge-shaped breaking stick into the side of the dog's mouth. Before attempting this, study up on the information about breaking up dog fights on

Also see the tipsheets:

* Bite Inhibition: An Important Part of Socialization


* Avoiding and Preventing Dog Bites

For more Dog Tips and other information about pet care, adoption and the work PAW does, visit our website at:

Stamp Reminder: Please use the "Spay-Neuter Pets" U.S. Postage Stamps.

Partnership for Animal Welfare, Inc.
P.O. Box 1074
Greenbelt, MD 20768


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 9:52:33

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Perhaps a couple of muzzles will make a good solution until you can sort things out?


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 9:54:49

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Another article

Canine rivalry refers to repeated conflicts between dogs living in the same household. Animals that live in social groups establish a social structure within that group. This social structure is hierarchical and dogs determine their place in the hierarchy through control of and access to various resources, such as food, toys and attention from people. A stable hierarchy in which each individual knows and accepts his rank provides dogs with a sense of comfort and belonging. Conflicts arise between household dogs when there is instability in the social structure; that is, when the ranking of each dog is not clear or is in contention. Dogs may warn each other initially by snarling, growling or snapping, but not causing injury. However, the conflict may sometimes intensify into prolonged bouts of dangerous fighting, which may result in one or both dogs being becoming injured.


Ongoing canine rivalry is potentially dangerous. Dogs or human family members could be severely injured as a result of fighting. Because resolving rivalry problems requires managing the dogs’ somewhat complex social behaviors, it’s often necessary for owners to obtain assistance from a professional animal behaviorist. Certified animal behaviorists are trained to observe, interpret and modify animal behavior.


Conflicts between household dogs develop for a wide variety of reasons. Conflicts may occur if:

A new animal has been introduced to the household.
A resident animal has died or no longer lives in the house.
A resident animal is re-introduced after an absence.
A young dog reaches social maturity, which is usually between 10 months and 2 years of age, and challenges the established higher-ranking dog.
A high-ranking dog ages or becomes ill and cannot maintain his higher status.

The dogs’ positions in the hierarchy are determined by the outcome of their interactions. The results of this complex and dynamic process will depend on the dogs themselves, without regard to your preferences. Any attempt on your part to interfere may result in increased conflict.


Dogs usually determine their social ranking through a series of behaviors, which include body postures and vocalizations that don’t result in injury. Examples of these behaviors are one dog “standing over” another by placing his paws or neck on the shoulders of the other, mounting, lip licking or rolling over onto the back. Some dogs may take toys away from other dogs, insist on being petted first or exercise control over other resources. However, because of past experiences, inadequate socialization or genetic tendencies, some dogs may escalate these displays into aggression with very little warning.


Do not attempt to influence or define the dogs’ rankings by treating them equally or by preventing a higher-ranking dog from asserting his position over another dog. The social hierarchy of the dogs is dynamic and complex, so even attempts to “support the dominant dog” may be counter productive. The dogs should be allowed to determine control of resources, such as toys and favorite sleeping places, amongst themselves. As much as possible, refrain from interfering in the dogs’ interactions with each other. But most importantly, establish yourself at the top of the hierarchy. Practicing “Nothing in Life is Free” is an easy and non-confrontational way to establish leadership by taking ultimate control of all resources the dogs find valuable. If your position as leader is clear, it will help the dogs sort out their lower places in the social structure more peacefully.


If you need to break up a fight, do so by squirting the dogs with water or making a loud noise to try and interrupt them. Never attempt to break up a dog fight by grabbing the dogs by their collars or getting any part of yourself in between them. Touching dogs while they are fighting can result in what is called “redirected aggression,” where a dog may bite you because he thinks you are part of the conflict. If you’ve had a dog fight, contact your veterinarian for a referral to a professional animal behaviorist.


If the dogs involved are intact males or females, spay or neuter both dogs.
Make sure that all of the humans in your household are at the top of the hierarchy by practicing “Nothing in Life is Free.”
Establish fair rules and enforce them consistently. This helps all the dogs feel more secure and also reinforces your role as leader. With the help of a professional animal behaviorist, elicit and reinforce non-aggressive behaviors using counter-conditioning and desensitization techniques. These procedures must be designed and tailored to specifically meet the needs of each individual case and require professional in-home help. Punishment will not resolve the issue and can actually make it worse. You should be aware that if you respond to this type of problem inappropriately, you run the risk of intensifying the problem and potentially causing injury to yourself and/or your dogs.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 10:01:03

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

I'm not sure if it against the rules to copy and paste text from one site to here? If it is not ok? after you have read them i can delete them.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 10:06:12
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to KMMI77


against the rules to copy and paste text from one site to here?

I dont think its against the rules , but people usually put the link as to where the original came from , so there is no doubt as to the author and info .....
But here i dont really think it matters


Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 10:13:31

Posts: 6422
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to KMMI77


I'm not sure if it against the rules to copy and paste text from one site to here? If it is not ok? after you have read them i can delete them.

That's fine, considering Ruphus can have issues getting to other sites. Thanks for addressing his question.


Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 10:33:54

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Thanks Simon and kiko. Any trouble and I'm sure Simon Can take care of it.

Here are a couple of the articles that the first one says to read.


As a Dog Whisperer, I believe the key to ‘dog training’ is teaching people about dogs themselves, how to effectively communicate with their dogs and how to be pack leaders. Once these concepts have been grasped and moved from theory to practice it is the human who has received the training required to communicate in a manner that their dogs can understand.


A Pack Leader is a person who uses calm, considered, patient, directive energy to direct their dog(s) and if the need arises, provides direction to other dogs that come into contact with their dog(s) by using this same energy. When the unexpected occurs the Pack Leader is in a position to have the presence of mind to react in a calm, positive, supportive manner.

A Pack Leader leads by winning the respect of their dog(s) by having the self-discipline, the awareness and actual ability to lead in a positive and consistent fashion. A true pack leader never assumes the position of leader simply for the sake of having power over another. They take the position of leader for the betterment of the entire pack.

A Pack Leader's strength is determined by their ability to be aware and in control of their emotions, while using patience, determination and persistence to lead by example.

What is it that humans love so much about dogs? A dog's selfless nature. A true pack leader understands and is able to act from a self-less place of being rather than from a place of selfishness.

I believe that a Pack Leader's goal is to empower themselves and their dog to live a happy, healthy life.

What can you do to become a Pack Leader? Empower yourself. You know that saying 'knowledge is power'? Well it is true.

Just because you don't know how to be a pack leader now does not mean that you don't have the ability to be one - you just need some help to get there. The elation that you feel when you master your first calm, assertive direction to your dog is amazing. This experience infuses you with the confidence and motivation to do more. As you become more confident, your dog will pay more of the right kind of attention to you.

This process builds a stronger bond of trust between yourself and your canine companion. So start by understanding what Leadership really is.


Leadership is coaching and mentoring - leading by example from a calm, confident, firm, patient, fair and aware state of being. This is how well balanced dogs instruct each other - this is also how well balanced humans instruct each other!

If you observe a dog interacting with another dog (dogs who are psychologically well balanced dogs - not anxious, reactive, fearful etc.); the dogs rarely resort to intense physical or verbal communication to teach or correct another dog. Most of what occurs is posturing primarily conveyed through body language, although there may be verbalization at times. Have you ever watched dogs playing and observed what happens when one dog is too pushy with the other dog. The dog who objects to the pushy behaviour disengages from the play by calmly ceasing physical contact and turning their head away from the other dog…this is leading by example. Calm, patient instructive, but not dominating.


Leadership is not domination and has nothing to do with being an ‘Alpha’. Before we go any further it is very important to understand that the ‘alpha’ myth is false…please read this short article to gain a better understanding De-bunking The Alpha Dog Myth.


The starting point, the very core of teaching a dog to be a good dog is not about habituating a dog to sit, stay or lie down. Teaching a dog to be a good dog starts with educating the human about the true nature and requirements of the dog. Dogs in their natural state are generally 'good'. It is when we humans break the cycle of normal social education of a dog by other dogs that we then need to take over the responsibility of teaching and socializing the dog. Without intention, many humans take away the dog's ability to fulfill themselves as a dog. This sets the stage for 'bad' dog behaviour. When the human understands the basic principles of how to fulfill the 'dog in the dog', the human is in a better position to enable the best in their dog and themselves.


a) Be aware of what and how you communicate;
b) Have a basic understanding of how dogs communicate;
c) Take the information from a) and b) and train yourself to be a better communicator.

To prepare you to successfully in navigate through a), b) and c) take a quick read of this article How Dogs Communicate and How Dogs Assign Respect

Now you are ready to lead by example while you coach and mentor your dog.


The biggest mistake I see people make, one of the first things I teach my clients to be aware of…

a) Not controlling your own emotions;
b) Not engaging in a working, logical mode.
c) Engaging in emotive mode;
d) Not providing full direction.
Providing comprehensive direction = attention, direction, correction and follow through;
e) Whinning and complaining
Don't whine and complain to your dog ('I wish you wouldn't do that', 'Oh, stop that' etc.). There is a vast difference between complaining and instructing!
f) Not stopping.
If your dog is not behaving, not listening, stop what you are doing, don’t keep moving forward; stop and address - then continue.


Most dogs, will instinctively know what they are being asked to do if they are communicated with & shown in the right way at the right time & provided with the right tools to navigate safely & confidently through situations.


Providing rules are one of the keys to enabling a happy, healthy, well-balanced dog. Guiding your dog in the right manner, incorporating structure, including rules and boundaries is a fundamental part of fulfilling the role of Pack Leader and provides you with an opportunity to create a closer bond with your dog. So lets first understand what is meant by the terms ‘rules’ and ‘boundaries’…

Humans require structure in their lives - so do dogs. Dogs are evolved to work physcially and psychologically, much as humans are. In the absence of work, a hobby, something productive to focus on, a goal(s) to keep wits sharp and mind fulfilled a human becomes aimless, anxious, depressed...and so it is for a dog.

Why do humans have so many rules and laws within their societies? To provide consistent, clear direction for the mass of humanity. Why is this necessary - well because most humans are not born leaders - they look to specific individuals to 'light and pave' the way. Well, just as with humans most dogs are not born leaders - they are by natural disposition followers. While some dogs are natural leaders, most are not and as such they look to their humans for leadership.

The way I see it a dog requires:
An overarching structure in his/her life. Within that broad structure there should exist;
A framework for each and every typical daily situation, i.e.
Entering and exiting a door, room, etc.
The use of couches and beds;
How to take treats;
How to wait for food and respect others food;
How to share toys and treats;
How to get ready for a walk;
How to great a human or another dog;
How to play;
And within each framework there must be a series of gateways (rules, boundaries and limitations) which the dog must work with and within, in order to gain access to the desired goal, i.e
To exit from the house out the door and into the backyard...
The dog must go through a series of steps - psychological and physical to 'ask' permission and in this way the dog learns to connect and work with its human by navigating through a series of what I call 'gateways'. In so doing the dog knows that it will be provided with direction, that it will not be permitted to escalate to intense behaviour, that it must stop and think...
The dog should not be pressed up against the door, but instead should yield the space by the door and wait several feet away from the door;
The dog should make eye-contact with its human;
The dog should wait for the human to yield the space in-front of the door and/or wait for a gesture or signal that it may proceed out the door;
The dog should be calm and attentive throughout this entire process, and;
In order for this process to be both fair and successful the human must direct in a kind, fair, intelligent, aware and self-disciplined manner.
Rule (noun)…rules:
Commonly defined as an authoritative principle set forth to guide behaviour or action.

Boundary (noun)...boundaries:
1. Border the invisible line that divides one physical area from another
(for example respect for another's space, yielding; waiting for
permission to go through and out a door, down the stairs etc.)

2. Limit the point at which something (i.e. a specific behaviour) ends or beyond which it
becomes something else. For instance, when a behaviour is within the realm of
normal and then escalates beyond that limit into the realm of chaos (unbalanced,
creating over excitement, anxiety, aggression, etc.).


FIRST, Be calm-directive
1. Be aware and in control of your emotions;
2. While using patience and confidence;
3. As well as determination and persistence.

Calm (adjective)Not anxious, without anxiety or strong emotion.

Confident directive...Acting confidently, confident in stating a position or claim.

SECOND...provide direction by effectively communicating with your dog in a clear, consistent manner. Keep in mind that dogs receive communication from us in various forms; they watch how we human's position our bodies, they look at the expressions on our face, they use their sense of smell, they note how we are breathing, they sense our general state-of being.

Remember, if you are directing your dog to 'calm down' and you are not calm yourself - you are leading by example, the wrong example. If, instead your state-of-being is the polar opposite (you are calm); you are leading by the right example...asking for calm by being calm. You are clearly and consistently supporting the message you want your dog to receive.

By mastering these concepts you take on the leadership role and become your dog’s pack leader!


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 10:54:33

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Another one

Many people think their dogs are 'Alpha' dogs...when in fact the term Alpha is not correct, also because they do not understand their dog, they do not see that their dog is submissive by nature. The real problem is that due to lack of proper leadership the dog is left to make up its own rules.

For these reasons I think it is important to provide an explanation of the story about how the term was initially established, what has happened to the term since and how our domesticated dogs really establish their pack structure.


In reference to wolves, L. David Mech, PhD first coined the term ‘Alpha’, while studying packs of unrelated wolves. He has since done his utmost to convince publishers to stop printing his earlier works were he first defined the term Alpha. Alpha was a term developed to describe a dominate individual at the top of a hierarchical structure.

To quote David Mech…

'The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species," written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book's info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history'.

'One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. "Alpha" implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that's all we call them today, the "breeding male," "breeding female," or "male parent," "female parent," or the "adult male" or "adult female." In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the "dominant breeder" can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a "subordinate breeder."

And from another extract of Mr. Mech’s…’

'However, in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all…The only consistent demonstration of rank in natural packs is the animals' postures during social interaction. Dominant wolves assume the classic canid standing posture with tail up at least horizontally, and subordinate or submissive individuals lower themselves and "cringe" (Darwin 1877). In fact, submission itself may be as important as dominance in terms of promoting friendly relations or reducing social distance'.


Much like the wolf, the domestic dog has evolved genetically to live in social groups. Wolf packs in their natural state (not captive) consist primarily of related animals. The dog, however has lived with man for thousands of years and has adapted its social behavior to live with humans, in dog packs comprised of various breeds of dogs.

Dogs that live together in human house holds base their social structure on one of the three following social structures…none of these models include a pack leader. All three structures are dependent on dominant and submissive behaviors among the dogs as opposed to leadership by one dog.

One - Despotic Social Structure

A despotic (tyrannical) social structure occurs when one dog takes and maintains control of the other dogs - the other dogs submit to the despotic dog. This tends to be a fairly stable structure. However, it can be a less than desirable structure if the despot is practicing undesirable behavior...for example reactivity to guests...behavior is transferable and learned from one dog to another. If the despot is a well balanced dog - then there is no issue and the structure can be one of positive stability.

Two - Linear Social Structure

A linear social structure occurs when one dog keeps the next dog in line, that dog then keeps the next dog in line and so on down the line. This social structure is based on a sliding scale of submission and is a fairly stable structure.

Three - Triangular Social Structure

A triangular social structure (not necessarily limited to three dogs - it can be comprised of more than three dogs) is a structure in which competition and fights for control of resources (for example food, toys, space) is constantly underway - this is a very unstable social structure.

I live with a pack of 10 dogs. The dogs are not related by blood, they are instead a pack brought together by a human - they are primarily rescues. They range in size from 4 lbs to around 75lbs and are various breeds, and mixes: Pomeranian, Chihuahua, Shetland Sheepdog, American Cocker Spaniel, Australian Shepherd, Boxer, Siberian Husky, German Shepherd (Alsatian) Belgium Shepherd (Groenendael) and Alaskan Malamute.

There is no one leader in my dog pack; instead their social structure is linear. In some situations one dog will take the lead, in another situation another dog will take the lead. The reason my pack’s social structure is linear is because I take a leadership position - coaching and mentoring to ensure that despotic and triangular behavior does not occur.

Despotic behavior normally results from a lack of leadership on the humans part and is not - in my mind - a desired outcome as it can lead to issues and unwanted behavior. This is even more so for triangular social behavior as escalated and reactive behaviors become the norm.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 10:56:22


Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Ruphus -

1 - Your dogs needs exercise to burn off pent up energy.
2 - Your dogs need a leader.

You are NOT providing these things. It's simple. I've had, and trained dogs
all my life. I even use a clicker for conditioning, BUT it is just a tool. Without
the two - exercise, and leadership EVERYTHING else is a complete WASTE of

The dogs are NOT the problem - You are the problem, and if you solve how
you take care of these dogs the problem will be solved. If you can't solve your
inabilities with the dogs, THEN the dogs will NEVER behave.

That my friend is the harsh reality.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 15:41:32

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Before I read through the text kindly provided above.
One thing to you, Jeff.

If I am not a leader how come the dogs have very easily adapted tasks, more even tasks that LSG-dogs are notorious for learning with difficulties if at all.

How many LSG-dogs have you seen retrieving, and that already after two short lectures? And more challenging, with breeds that are known to not let go that easily once in protective mod, how in most cases I can make them suspend from that mod with a single clap of my hands?

Or walking. Visit a LSG-forum and see what many have to say about walking on the leash. Then let me tell you about how mine walked at my side with the leash swinging between us.

Or right now while I type. One of the males is in the yard alone and started barking at his brother who is separate in the basement.
In the moment that he took a breath, with very soft voice from right here inside the house, I say one time: "Hermann, ... stop, .... lay down!"
And he does exactly that, instantly. ( I can see it in the live-cam.)
You expert think that´s communication between a dog and a person who is not accepted as leader?
Let alone with breeds that developed to have their own regime, so that they can make decisions on their own / hence from genetical preference are not of the type willing to please?

And all that, as mentioned already under sick conditions to say the least.

If you want to insist on your blind judge, Jeff, thanks for your expertise and please keep it to yourself.
I am having much more than enough of annoying stuff to deal with; including my failure on the day when I opened the thread, which I shall describe tomorrow.

Your comments to me display one thing in the first place, which is that you have no grasp of what it means to raise dogs or any creature under permanent condition of psychological intimitation from outside.

I have so far been able to keep the pack impeccable with me, very attentive and pretty good-humored.
You think such compares with challenges you had? Could be. But hard for me to imagine.
In fact I am quite certain that you have no clue of what you are commenting on there so snappishly.

Do me a favour and leave me alone with mates who understand my situation and are interested in helping me.

Thank you.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 18:39:21


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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus I am sure Jeff means you well.

You're both well intentioned guys. No need to escalate. If you disagree then leave it at that.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 18:53:32


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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Ruphus -

Sorry, I keep reading your replies and they are so frustrating to read. You
seem to be missing the obvious, because you are seeking everything but the
real solution.

Also my eight year old daughter can make our dog do all kind of tricks, sit, stay,
lie down, speak, fetch, crawl, high five, up, down, etc. but she is not the dogs
master, and the dogs knows it. She is the dogs best friend, just like she is riding
horses. She cooperates with the horse, and the horse does what she wants
(mostly), but surely she is not the horses master either.

Just because animals obey some commands does NOT make you their leader.
Dogs will do an enormous amount for the person who feeds them, just like horses
will - They know who brings the food. That doesn't make you their leader.

Now regarding the problems you describe:

Re-read CAREFULLY what Anders said:

*Built up energy because they might not get enough exercise and lack challenges (Do you walk your dogs outside their fence?)

*Are they neutered?

*Living fenced in makes the outside world very interesting.

*Lack of exercise, to much testerone and an intriging outside world that you cant reach gives dogs stress and the easyests way to deal with that in dog world is fight and it normally escalates into something ugly .

What Anders is telling you is the ENTIRE foundation of what Cesar Milan is
preaching in his ENTIRE Dog Whisperer series. "Calm Assertive Leadership"
and "Exercise" if you have these two components everything else is easy.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 19:10:11

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

I am sorry to have misunderstood, Jeff. I now see what you mean, which I completely agree on.

I am not of the commander type, and you can find posts of me on the foro where I mention how wolves are being democratic / how the old image of the cruel alpha came about through documentaries filmed with enclosed packs.

I fancy my pack as perceiving me as kind of parent. Whatever it be, they do respect me, which is why they pay great attention to what I want. They are never being physically `disciplined´or hardly ever flared up at. ( Seldomly I do snarl, which then is unintentional / I always regret / due to being under stress myself.)
They know that I want their best, and just as much feel protected by me. ( Not at last for having observed me going forward for them.)
Besides, one of the points why I so hate the intruders for is that they ruined my chance to raise the dogs as meek and generally trusting to people ( within natural limits of LSG-characteristics, naturally).

As I am at posting, and can´t relax anyway tonight, let me tell you from that mistake that makes me want bang my head against something.
And about a vain trial to even it out today.

The day this thread started, a friend had just come by.
We had not been paying attention to how the dogs were trying to great him and went straight inside. However, stopped right behind the door as I was showing the visitor the broken off doorhandle. In the same time the males rushed into the hideout in order to catch our sight before we go upstairs. In the third passage they accidentally bumped into each other, and as we weren´t showing up / not giving distraction they suddenly got entangled in a fight.
I rushed into the hideout grabbed the superior dog and held the other from taking avantage while taking the superiour outside.
After only few minutes of calming down I brought the superiour into the yard and called his brother out from the hideout. While talking to them in a relaxed and unimportant way. I had succeded with appeasing them before this way and it worked once more.

Their sniffing out became increasingly less intense and their tails were going midway, things going alright. Only some moments later they should had started proding each other with their noses and running parallel in relief.

Then I did a god darn idiotic mistake. Wanting to hurry up and not let my friend wait with going upstairs, I resumed repairing the door handle. Hammering against the garages metal door. ( Imagine: Only ~ 30 seconds after the reunion! )
Man, I could kill myself for that total idiocy.
It destroyed the calmness and out of a sudden the next fight was going on.
Again separated after about 5 seconds, but this time leaving them irreconcilable.

Today following a suggestion from the first provided links above. We tried walking them in certain manner. Planning to slowly shorten the distance while walking until they´d accept walking side by side, etc.
Me with the alpha ahead the friend with the beta about 10 meters behind us. It was a catastrophy.
The beta killed himself trying to get ahold of the alpha. Wheeping and whimpering like nuts. And after detecting the friends insecurity, biting into the leash, trying to snap his hand and one time pinching him into the upper leg. Though my friend developed fear we resumed walking.

About three times the beta was getting so mad that I envisioned him getting lose and the two dogs in fight out there without me having a chance of removing any of the two. Plain horror!
- The friend afterwards admitting that he was about to release the leash.

In the same time the alpha sensed how insane his brother was getting ( who again probably aimed at taking advantage of the alphas slight limping / pain in the front leg from the injury) and gave up on the intial show-off walking, now snuggling up against my leg.

After some time I thought that the beta was calming down a bit, but my friend responded that I wouldn´t realize how frantic he still was. So, we returned after maybe 5 km or so.

I would like to try again tomorrow with me taking the beta ahead and the alpha behind us, but my friend is uncertain whether he dares too. ( The alpha is much more men-friendly, and I coax my friend to absoluteyl ignore the dog anyway / just walk without looking at him.
Yet, it is uncertain whether the friend will dare to give it another try, and I can´t mind him at all for being hesitant.)

Anyway, I fear every single day added as sparation between the dogs to only further manifest the revalry.
The situation is unbearable.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 20:41:54

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

It seems to me that you are a man of high intelligence, compassion...within your own boundaries, integrity and with a real fire in your soul......
You have asked a question of a group of people, many of whom have the same character or strength of character, in perhaps different ways to yours but none the less, there.
I do not want to appear rude or disrespectful in any way but have to ask you this......Why have you asked the question if you don't want to hear the answer?
By sharing what you have, it seems to me that you will will receive a cross section
of you have, and just because you may not agree with all , it does not mean that those answers are wrong.
I am an animal lover too. I have dogs and have done for most of my life....I am not an expert and if I felt I needed help would gladly ask for the answers I seek. I think its likely that I would simply ignore the advice i didn't agree with and just respond to the comments I felt helped . I don't think that anyone's answer needs to be deemed as a personal attack on you ....just perhaps that others too have the same strength of feeling or love for ''mans best friend'' as you do and like you will speak their minds accordingly?!!
Anyway, please don't take this as an attack on you just an observation. I wish you and your loved dogs a positive and happy outcome....I only wish I could add some advise which will bring a fast and positive result for you all.
My very best wishes to you none the less.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 20:43:15

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus


# I absolutely had no intentions of keeping dogs here. After all, I did not refrain from doing so in Germany to then start keeping any over here. The reason they are here is because I just could not watch a stray dog´s third litter to perish in the way her first two had.

While I see you have some responses you find helpful and others you find offensive, I have to say after reading through and remember the whole story that THIS is the root of your problems regarding these dogs. I know it hurts to hear it cuz you love those guys but it's the plain truth as you said it yourself and KNOW it. You are not in a position to take on this job, never were, and now dealing with the consequences.


And now you think I might light-heartedly bring two of them to the doc and let them euthanasized?

Always a heartbreaking situation, even in not so extreme cases as yours, but as much as we all suffer as compassionate beings, this is most often the BEST solution for all involved. What I am saying is, nobody would or should blame you if all you have said thus far is the truth with no exaggerations. Now you have to stop blaming the people and the place around you, and especially, yourself. After all you really really tried and that is what really matters.


CD's and transcriptions available here:
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 22:11:04

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ricardo



THIS is the root of your problems regarding these dogs.

Not in the way you think.
The reason why I had no intentions to keep dogs is not that I thought to be lacking competence beyond average. In the opposite.

I postulate certain conditions at a minimum for adequate keeping, regarding space, supply, time and environment.
The only time these would had have been evenly covered would had been in my childhood. And I begged my mother to allow me a dog like nothing else. But she would not permit. ( Only after tough trials including support of her own friends did she finally allow me a cat, which was how I discovered the beauty of that species as well. - And later of zoology as a whole.)

Later in life it´s been many items that would not suit. Living in cities, lack of time, etc. Thus, I would not become dog owner although always wanting to.

You say you read the foregone details, but above was mentioned in the puppy thread already.

What my competence with keeping animals is concerend:
For some reason all my pets developed in ways that fascinated people, with many asking for eventual offspring ( of usually however neutered individuals ). You would find budgerigars that would land on your nose if you not put out your finger in time as landing stick, cats that would retrive thrown objects or appear like Nathan the Wise.

And two cats that life did not separate from me prematurely became exceptionally old as well.
Also, each and every time when about obtaining an animal, I went and collected at least ten books to read them through patiently. Even regarding species I had had before already, including literature of that time.

This is not to say that I was even nearly perfect, and I have spots with all of my pets that I regret as failures.
But I know of myself to be comparably rather critical anyway. - Which again is why I did not allow myself the keeping of dogs.
And the making of kids, besides. ( Sceptical about the future I could lead them into.)

And regarding current condition I would not be wanting any kind of pet deliberately that I couldn´t keep entirely in the house.
The only way for a creature to become my mate here is its rescue from death.
And even that in limited terms.

After adopting the pack I have rejected a bunch of inquiries to adopt dogs, from puppies to poor little adult dogs.
Last such visit has been 2 weeks ago by a lady who had been at my door already over a year ago with another puppy.
She could sell her pedigree dog for good money ( sought for as status symbol ), but has priority on its well-being ( and thinks of me as perfect choice).

I then explain that I have not enough space. That there would be tremendous stress in the pack for any newcomer, and that molesters are already driving me up to the pole.

The enquirers understand that.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 1:13:36

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ricardo



this is most often the BEST solution for all involved.

It terrifies me.
We have been calling a bunch of people today, trying to find eventually suitable hosts.
Despite chances near zero.

We had to euthanasize Igor last year for having become very old and blind, with the vet saying it was mystical how he was alive still with those blood values.
And yet, without alternative, I can´t put into words the feelings when this lovely being allowed that injection as trustingly like always.
Always trying not to picture it, but it sneaks up every other time and makes me feel like a perfidious AH.

Now, seeing Susie sleeping off, that I could maybe take somehow, but Hermann is just as lovely and trusting like Igor was, and ... Jeez, I don´t even really think of it.

I think, what piece of **** is life when you have to face such crap, and so much more thelike.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 1:22:30
Anders Eliasson


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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 10 2014 8:21:23
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 7:32:50
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus


And you are much too convinced of your understanding of the matter.
Eventhough not being certain about whether agilizing them would be finally constructive or worsening; I know what you are pointing to ( exercise needed) but you don´t consider the eventual contra production that I am concerned about.

Had I not even known the basics that you mention so far, I would not had sheltered the pack. And seeing how you rank effects of a daily terror, not appreciating how I have been able at all to manage the situation until now, indicates that it is you who knows too little about the matter.

Keeping lapdogs in a relaxed environment is a bit different from what I am in, you know. Maybe it is missing out on the difference were your peppy-being comes from.

I am already in a demanding situation. If mistaking now by doing something contra productive ... I am thinking of it all the time.
It is two days now that I am all pondering on the situation. What to do, how to do. Have not even touched the guitar.

Further, it is not that they were out of physical action. The pack plays daily. Usually two or three times per day. Scuffling and haunting each other intensively. ( Yeah, you could be amazed about the energy and speed they master already within the given space.)
Sure, could be better still, but it is not that they were lacking action like typical apartment dogs.
Besides, what do you know about live stock guarding dogs and their typical exercise?

Other than occasional hunting of small prey they will lollop with the cattle speed and actually lie down whenever they can. Kangal owners who own large lots tell us that their dogs would not make use of it other than checking the borders from time to time.
LSG-dogs prefer to occupy an elevated spot and stay there for most of the time, as long as things stay in sight.

And finally swinging around something like a flirtpole is the easiest of all things to do for me, not tiring at all. Yet, I may try using it for some days and try to figure whether it be helpful or not.

Brisk smartass, look at your helpful suggestions so far. Nothing.
I bet that I would far out win a contest on cynology with you.


I will leave you in peace. I feel sorry for your dogs. I dont feel sorry for you.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 8:21:10

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

If superficial ignorant perspective was to be relevant to me I would be dead long since.
Feel whatever serves you best, master of understanding and cynology expert.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 8:44:17
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson


If superficial ignorant perspective was to be relevant to me I would be dead long since.
Feel whatever serves you best, master of understanding and cynology expert.


Stop it now... You are being a f*cking a**hole now.
This time its me. Before it was others and next time you´ll find someone else to get angry at. And so on.

I only intended to help. But its impossible with you. I dont intend to know a lot and thats why I adviced you to read some books because my experience is not big enough to give you some fast little tricks to sort out your situation. Besides, I dont think that your personal situation or your dogs situation can be fixed on a internet foro specialised in flamenco.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 9:43:11

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson


How are you?

You having dog trouble? I know everyone is telling you what to do, don't listen to anyone, listen to your Uncle Steve here.

Ha ha just kidding, listen to anyone, but consider my proposal. Without going into depth about dog breeding and training, may I respectfully suggest you go for a run with the dogs?

Is it possible to find a place you can take the dogs to run off leash? If so please give it a try, an open field or woods. You have a gang of teenage dogs that are a breed that needs a lot of running to wear them out and settle them down. Those dogs' nerves would be soothed by 25 minutes a day of chasing balls and knotted rags that you can throw.

Then after they get that run they will drink some water and settle down. If you want to take it farther at that point when they are run and relaxed and happy you can do some fast and dirty obedience training. If you want me to explain that I'll be happy to, it's not complicated. But really I think you and your dogs would have a great time running around.

I don't envy your position honestly, one of those dogs would wear me out and be a huge responsibility, but you have what three or four? That is lot of young teenage dog energy to deal with and that is not easy.

You have German Shepherds right? Or some dogs that seem to be mainly Shepherd? My grandfather bred German Shepherds, in addition to breeding racing pigeons. He was a farm boy from Iowa and he went to WWII when he was 27 into the infantry. he used to take me fishing when I was in in college after my grandmother died. He would drive up to my college town with his aluminum boat and meet me at the pastry shop at 5:30 am! Then we would trailer his boat over to the lake, put in at the ramp and motor over to a cove way on the other side of the lake.

We got out to our spot and the mist would rise off the water, which was still as glass, and the sun broke over the hills makign the mist golden and several kinds of yellow. ( but never 'Conde' orange' , that color does not exist in nature and is an abberation of color theory.) Grandpa would begin the same way every time; we would cast our lines out with the hopefulness of that first morning arrival, the whole fishing day is ahead of you and the potential is greater then you make that first cast than later afternoon time when you begin to doubt your luck. Once the sinker hit the bottom he would pour a cup from the thermos. Then I would dig a few doughnuts out of the box we bought at the pastry shop, get my coffee too. Grandpa would take sip look out over the lake and he would become very somber. Then he would say to me in a quiet but firm voice " You know, I saw a lot things 'over there'. " Then silence and I would just wait.

Soon he would continue and tell me one of the stories about walking from one side of Europe to the other and back over three years he was in the army. Since he was older, having gone into the service in his late 20's he was more careful than many younger guys, he was given treacherous reconnaissance jobs. He would often walk into a German town at night with a map in order to confirm the location of certain land marks a buildings, to make sure the map was accurate and up to date. He told me about lots of things out in the boat, mainly how horrible it was and some funny stuff too. Cooking a chicken in his helmet, and when the war was officially over he as in Germany how the Germans welcomed him home because his name was Faulk, a possible German name. He would go into a store to buy something and the German shop keepers would say "Oh welcome home sir. " I never thought to ask him why he was out of the US Army uniform...but his job was odd walking behind enemy lines and blending in.

During those years he was usually in the company of the fellows who looked after the service dogs, the Shepherds. He was already a 'dog man' from way back in Iowa, but I think he learned a lot about dogs working with them during the war. When he came home from over there he became a little league baseball coach and he coached the Pony leagues, before the war he played some pro baseball and he also toured the country as a figure skater. He could take the rottenest bunch of boys, the ones the other coaches did not want, and turn them into league champs. He took his Poly league teams to the state finals with regularity. I think it was because he worked with guys who were younger than him in Germany and he had to teach them how to survive when walking into a German town. He had to coach them. After that stuff putting together winning teams of misfits must have been fun. He had the same gift with dogs and birds.

If I had more I would tell you about going to the pigeon house and feeding them while my grandfather explained which one were 'racers' and which ones were 'rollers' ( acrobats) . There's another great story about I found a pigeon in my shop the year after college and it was a racer, he flew in the window. Since I knew pigeons pretty well I grabbed him and took the band off his leg, then set him in a box. I called the number on the band to let the guy know I picked up his bird. The guy was pretty pissed off, which I thought was strange, considering, I knew what kind of bird it was. I told the guy I knew what a Belgian racer was and that he was lucky it was me who spotted his bird an not some idiot who would have mistreated it.

As it turned out, the bird belonged to a drug dealer who used it to message other dealers. I suppose he had several birds. he drove up in a new Mercedes Benz, and he was kind of a jerk, until he realized I was not a cop and that I only cared to return his bird. So I took the bird out of the box and handed it to him the way a real pigeon man would hand a racer to another pigeon guy. After that he knew that I knew about birds. I really enjoy the racers, but those rollers are just silly gooses.

My grandpa was a really, really astute dog and pigeon man. Was was not an intellectual, but he was right on at reading the animals. I'd like to think he would give you the straight up advice of running those dogs good once a day, giving them some water and then having a beer.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 12:32:29


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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 10 2014 12:58:46
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 12:58:11

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

i will keep it simple ruphus. google barbara woodhouse and buy her books. if anything the word walkies will become a part of your vocabulary.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 12:59:38

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Yeah ruphus, why not a nice little walk in the park off leash?

(for estebana, accidentally respond to top anders post. The rest is for ruphus below his quote)

Dudes, he was crystal clear why he can't take em out for a cute little romp in the park...the entire town is out to murder them even little children. Folks don't read entire posts I guess.


You say you read the foregone details, but above was mentioned in the puppy thread already.

Never said you were not capable of having A PET....but rather be the rescuer of the ENTIRE LITER etc etc. It's clear you knew this undertaking was next to impossible. And now you are "terrified" at your choices. Just pointing out the pain involved with such a tough decision, it's understandable. But sadly sounds like it might be the best thing for you and the animals.



CD's and transcriptions available here:
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 13:38:04

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Dear KM,

First of all my sincere thank you for having taken the hazzles and done all that research for me. I am really touched and thankful for your engagement, my friend. Big hugs! :O)

It has been a great read and very inspiring. Though employing conditions I had been basically familiar with; like always, refreshing info prompts productive reflection and sometimes presents what one has practically bypassed altogether.

In this case it´s been the suggestion to touch the dog at neck or waiste to enforce his attention when him being distracted or reluctant. I never enaged that before, and it works wonders!

Secondly the reminder of something though self-evident never enough stressed, like the relevance of once own mood and imagination.

I have been employing both of these this afternoon, and has been a pleasure to say the least. That instant gratification through dogs as willing and interacting as it gets ... fantastic!

What appeasement of the males is concerned, though just demonstrating to myself how effective I can be with controlled mood and thought I don´t dare myself to be ready of pperforming enough mind-control to safely reunite the brothers. Been able of doing that for the preceding 5 times or so, but now after the last too furious event I am so fearing for the two ( I really love them as if they were my kids) that I fear to lose control over imagination, then pulse, adrenalin and what have you.

Not at last the events of the past years have depressed me / made me mentally underperforming to express it mildly ( must be nioce to myself, hehe ;O). And since over two years I am telling myself that I must return to meditation and its recreational effect for the soul.

Now, in respect of lack of mental strength needed for the task with the dogs, I shall actually re-start meditating from the day after tomorrow at the latest.

I shall than suggest to myself that the pack and me are situated just fine, getting rid of all the pity vibes that I feel for them, simply letting their natural cheeriness define our ways.
Hopefully, I can then get the males together again, even there will have passed too much time of separation.
( Keeping them apart now is really hazzle here for me, besides. Including daily procedures after only ~ 4 hours of sleep. :O/ )

Muzzles you say:

I have actually two of these here, sent in by friends. Originally planning to use for teaching the dogs to not bite me in any eventual physcial mess with strangers. ( Having someone pretending to attack us, with the muzzled dogs let lose and me joining, so that they learn to distinguish in a hypothetical battle.) Meanwhile in view of experience with interventions into their fights it seems though as if they had `always´ enough caution to avoid biting me.

Anyway, these muzzles I have make me suspicious. They are of mere nylon, and I suspect that they could slip off.
Moreven, ... I am undecided whether it be a good idea trying to employ thelike means for appeasement.
I have read comments that claimed such attempt would raise only more frustration and hostility between the opponents.
Must ponder over it.

Your supply of instructions has helped me great deal with circling in on my shortcomings and forming ideas on what is needed. And even just the results of today already have been a positive blast.
Thank you so much for your dear efforts.

And hopefully there may also come up a solution regarding an acceptable new home for Hermann and Susie.


you are right with that it bites me in the a$$, and that I knew it from beginning.
It was an impulse. Simply only that you could not let die another litter.

And since then I will just not look around.

The culture of cruelty now only reaches me through screams and cries emitted in the quarter almost regularly. Sounds you would not want to hear in your nightmares. Sometimes in ways that you are not even certain about the species, and so that you want to vomit. ( Literally.)
Just to mention roughly what and how come of ogres.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 15:00:10

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RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Hi Stephen,

I have been amazed about your grandpa´s coming through in Nazi Germany before already. Because I deem that the SA & co. must have been majorly suspecious about any Anglo-Saxon.
He must have had balls like grapefruits.

Yes, I rember Belgian racers as famous speedsters and rollers being described as dumb. Rollers will actually roll over on ground, was it?
Don´t know whether those with feathers over feet are considered rollers too / in general, but I know that they move only very little around home and make lots of clapping and caprioles in the air to impress the girls or lurk in others.
Young and silly, impressed by optics, I wanted those too, but they were more expensive.
Think I would still be able to hand over a pigeon gently, with wings folded, feet at ease and no pressure on the body.

I have great admiration for whisperers, since the time we heard of Nicholas Evans, who realized about horses what the rest could not in thousands of years. Not coincidentally he showed to be outstanding with socializing humans too.

Something triggers animals affination for me, sometimes surprising their owners. And sometimes even wildlife will allow me remarkably short fleeing distance, but I am not nearly as talented in interpreting animals ( lest even humans) as your grandpa must have been. I wish I had that special sensibility.

Walking dogs? You are saying something there.
Over here walking dogs is like running nude in the Sheraton. Especially when they are being larger than cocker spaniels. You must count with anything from only being molested, over being squeezed hefty bribe off to get away, down to your dog being confiscated ( last year in the capitol 30 confiscated dogs were let to perish from thirst and hunger in an enclosure) to ( if you resist confiscation ) anything thinkable.

Another point is stray packs, which always include large dogs and often times really big swashbucklers. I think to have mentioned somewhere here how one of these came running after Charlie and me last year. What a ruffled beast! I had my stomach up in the throat until finally suceeded with shooing the bold guy off with a rotating leash.

My quarter has been taken over by a gang of six or so strays, most of stature like my males, with one of them about to morph into a pony or so.

With the stressfull walk yesterday we had great luck of not running into them. I spotted them in a side road where they had apparently found some garbage to feed from. A bit out of my mind I continued the walk desperately seeking to reunite my dogs. Luckily the stray pack did still not come towards us.

My friend called today, feeling pity for my situation he overcome his fear and wants to help me out tomorrow with another walking. However, he does not know about the extra risk with the local stray gang ( he didn´t spot them yesterday and I did not dare to tell him of that yet), but I must inform him about that beforehand tomorrow.
In fact imagening how an encounter could potentially be turning out, I am getting increasingly hesitant myself.

Besides the stray pack, passing my house once in a while, came by yesterday and stayed right here for 20 minutes or so before they entered a neighboring empty lot and set up a big howling and barking session for another half hour or so. The visit had likely to do with that they noted the excursion of my dogs. And there is reason to doubt that they might have been on friendly mission. Resources are limited.
Darn, little reason to be optimistic about the overall situation.

Back to your question:
I would absolutely love to walk the dogs. And I am VERY frustrated over the fact that it is kind of a Russian Roulette to do it.

Under the term shepherd dogs you must distinguish two types, one that is destined to help drive a herd, another that is to guard herds against predators and human invadors. The German shepherd is in between the two, as well very attentive / obedient as guarding.

Mine however stem from local guarding breed ( if it can be called "breed", for actually there is nothing like what we consider as systematical breeding. Only that those of a litter that turn out talented / overtaking the task by themselves / by copying from parents / older dogs will be left alive, while the rest be liquidated.)
In regions here and around Kaukasus you hardly find driving dogs, but commonly guarding ones.
These are extremely protective of what they consider their extended family which typically includes the herd, the owner and his family. However, they are not very attentive, nor obedient.
In the opposite they are supposed to stay with the herd even without presence of the owner and to make their own decisions on how to procede. Thus obediency / dependency on instruction would be counter productive.

That is why I claim it remarkable how attentive and obedient my pack is nontheless. Only possible through love and trust.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2014 15:02:37
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