Humidity + Guitar Actions

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tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

Humidity + Guitar Actions

I read this article on article

"Excessive dryness or humidity will also affect action of your guitar. Too dry, and the action becomes high, too humid, and it may become too low, and strings will begin to buzz."

Is this right? If a flamenco guitar is having problems with humidity, and the action is high is it because the guitar is too dry?

That particular advice seems a little at odds to other advice I've come across.

I'm confused.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 13:41:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tijeretamiel

I read this article on article

"Excessive dryness or humidity will also affect action of your guitar. Too dry, and the action becomes high, too humid, and it may become too low, and strings will begin to buzz."

Is this right? If a flamenco guitar is having problems with humidity, and the action is high is it because the guitar is too dry?

That particular advice seems a little at odds to other advice I've come across.

I'm confused.

I agree with you, it strikes me as the reverse of what happens (in high humidity the top swells bulging upward..string height rises, in low humidity the top collapses..string height falls).

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 15:21:34

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

I agree with you, it strikes me as the reverse of what happens (in high humidity the top swells bulging upward..string height rises, in low humidity the top collapses..string height falls).

Yeah, thats the theory, but I´ve actually experienced what the guy in the article says many times. That I could put a lower saddle bone on the guitar in dry and warm periods, which is summer where I live.

I dont like what he writes about guitars that should be good at 25% RH. That is very low humidity and IMHO absolutely not adviceable. 35% is where the alarm should start sounding

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 17:19:52

crossoverman

Posts: 28
Joined: Oct. 31 2010
From: Switzerland

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to tijeretamiel)

I measure the humidy in my home permanently. We have a new home since last year and im happy that even this winter it never falls under 45%. My personal alert will ring at 40%. Under this I would try to change some things. In my old home I always had to take care for this. So you should look for holding the correct humidy. With that you havent to make any changes on your guitar if it is build in a good way. When the action will differ so much so you know that "something" happens in your guitar....

A good luthier only uses wood that had a long dry period. This is a very important point for not getting cracks in the guitar when the humidy goes down. And the conditions in the workshop are important too. But in the luthiers hand is only half of that what you have to do for a guitar.

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Thx, Gerrit

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 17:34:03

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to tijeretamiel)

It depends on a number of factors.

With a guitar which is ladder braced, such as many of the romantic era, or X braced as the standard steel string, you have a lot of bracing under the bridge which is glued across the grain of the soundboard,
In low humidity the soundboard is going to shrink and the restraint from the braces will cause it to sink.

A classical or Flamenco guitar with fan bracing has much less of this crossgrain restraint under the bridge and is less vulnerable to movement up and down.

At the same time you also have the ebony fretboard drying out and increasing the forward bow of the neck and thus increasing 12th fret string height.

Longitudinally the soundboard could also be shrinking which will increase neck angle.

So whist it is pretty much always true that a steelstring guitar will need a higher saddle in dry conditions, a classical or flamenco could need no changes or go the other way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 19:53:23

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

It depends on a number of factors.

With a guitar which is ladder braced, such as many of the romantic era, or X braced as the standard steel string, you have a lot of bracing under the bridge which is glued across the grain of the soundboard,
In low humidity the soundboard is going to shrink and the restraint from the braces will cause it to sink.

A classical or Flamenco guitar with fan bracing has much less of this crossgrain restraint under the bridge and is less vulnerable to movement up and down.

At the same time you also have the ebony fretboard drying out and increasing the forward bow of the neck and thus increasing 12th fret string height.

Longitudinally the soundboard could also be shrinking which will increase neck angle.

So whist it is pretty much always true that a steelstring guitar will need a higher saddle in dry conditions, a classical or flamenco could need no changes or go the other way.

If this is true, thanks a bunch for the info!
This the kind of bits me enjoys learning about.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 21:08:40

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

It depends on a number of factors.

With a guitar which is ladder braced, such as many of the romantic era, or X braced as the standard steel string, you have a lot of bracing under the bridge which is glued across the grain of the soundboard,
In low humidity the soundboard is going to shrink and the restraint from the braces will cause it to sink.

A classical or Flamenco guitar with fan bracing has much less of this crossgrain restraint under the bridge and is less vulnerable to movement up and down.

At the same time you also have the ebony fretboard drying out and increasing the forward bow of the neck and thus increasing 12th fret string height.

Longitudinally the soundboard could also be shrinking which will increase neck angle.

So whist it is pretty much always true that a steelstring guitar will need a higher saddle in dry conditions, a classical or flamenco could need no changes or go the other way.

I should have added in my response that the effect is minimal at best and I agree with your assessment.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 22:33:51

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to jshelton5040)

Thanks for the replies.

I'm still as confused as ever!

I'm referring to a guitar which has a problem with quite a high action at the 12th fret, and the saddle is low as it can get.

It was left unplayed pretty much for 15 years in a thin plastic case. There are no symptoms of a swollen/mis shapen top to indicate that it was over humidified or wet. The ebony fretboard seems very dry, which is to be expected.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 12:07:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to tijeretamiel)

Have you checked the neck angle and the relief of the neck?
Based on your last reply, it sounds like its where you could have some problems.
If you dont know how to check these things, let us know. Its pretty easy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 12:35:17

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to tijeretamiel)

my one guitar has relatively thin and flat neck and when it's humid, the neck straightens up a bit and when it's dry the neck starts to curve due to string tension, affecting the string action by about 0.2-0.6 mm. Flamenco guitars in general don't feel well in finnish houses with heating in the winter as the humidity gets to around 20%. I've noticed that in andalucia the guitars feel pretty much at home and even very old guitars can be seen with zero cracks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 12:52:00

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Have you checked the neck angle and the relief of the neck?
Based on your last reply, it sounds like its where you could have some problems.
If you dont know how to check these things, let us know. Its pretty easy.

Nope, I haven't checked these.

I would be most appreciative if you could recommend how to do this.

Thanks Anders.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 13:53:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to tijeretamiel)

1) neck relief: hold 6th string down on 1st and 12th fret and look at the distance there is between the string and the 5th or 6th string. It should be very little. A hair or two

2) Neck angle: use a straight edge Or whatever piece of STRAIGHT and stiff (wood, metal, plastic) material that fits between the nut and the bridge, (around 60 - 65cm long)

Messure the difference between the underside of the straightedge and the soundboard at the bridge. A reading around 2mm is good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 20:38:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to tijeretamiel)

as a player I feel when the humidity is high the guitar swells and the neck is lifted at the body and it makes the strings buzz a lot. Also the guitar loses some brightness until it starts drying out. When a guitar is super dry the neck sort of caves in at the body and the action comes way up and uncomfortable even though the sound brightens up a lot.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 23:36:54

burnsbyrne

Posts: 44
Joined: Sep. 17 2005
From: NE Ohio, USA

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

as a player I feel when the humidity is high the guitar swells and the neck is lifted at the body and it makes the strings buzz a lot. Also the guitar loses some brightness until it starts drying out. When a guitar is super dry the neck sort of caves in at the body and the action comes way up and uncomfortable even though the sound brightens up a lot.

Ricardo

This is exactly my experience. I used to accompany dance classes in a studio with no air conditioning. In the summer it would get very humid and my strings would buzz much more than in the winter when the humidity would be much lower due to the steam heat.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 12:01:59

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

as a player I feel when the humidity is high the guitar swells and the neck is lifted at the body and it makes the strings buzz a lot. Also the guitar loses some brightness until it starts drying out. When a guitar is super dry the neck sort of caves in at the body and the action comes way up and uncomfortable even though the sound brightens up a lot.

Ricardo

Perfectly summarized, Ricardo. Autumn wet, rainy weeks and hot, dry summer days; my "lunatic" blanca swells and recedes like sea tides, and perfection (as always) is achieved at the spike of that curve.... 'wish I could predict when it occurs, and record on that day.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 17:35:34

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Humidity + Guitar Actions (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks for all the replies.

It turns out that my guitar was on the dry side of things. I've had a Planet Waves soundhole humidifier, that I've checked in the morning for the last 3 days and it was a little dryer than the day before. This morning the action seems to have gone down a little.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

1) neck relief: hold 6th string down on 1st and 12th fret and look at the distance there is between the string and the 5th or 6th string. It should be very little. A hair or two

2) Neck angle: use a straight edge Or whatever piece of STRAIGHT and stiff (wood, metal, plastic) material that fits between the nut and the bridge, (around 60 - 65cm long)

Messure the difference between the underside of the straightedge and the soundboard at the bridge. A reading around 2mm is good.

Hello Anders,

Thanks for the info. I've not tried the above on my flamenco just yet but I will do once I've humidified it and restrung it, but I have tried the neck relief on my acoustic guitar and gave the truss rod a little tweak - it's playing a lot nicer now so thanks again.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2014 10:45:41