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Decoupling the cante form from the guitar to make a solo instrumental is in questionable taste, and the huge reason people like Morante send constant reminders about the importance of the cante, as it is the basis of the FORMAL STRUCTURE of the palos…all of them, with possible exception the Rondeña (although we can say it is an alternative to Taranto/Minera etc, ie, a cante minero form).
I'm not trying to decouple something that's coupled, so to speak. Rather, as I mentioned in reply to orsonw, I'm not clear how, or even that, modern tarantas, like "Tio Sabas," "Callejon de la Luna," or Antonio's "Recuerdos" are constrained compositionally by the formal structure of the taranta cante. I was assuming that the modern guitar tarantas grew out of a tradition that was dominated by the cante, and that there are echoes of the latter in the former. But that the modern tarantas are based on the formal structure of the cante isn't clear to me. (I'm not denying that they are, if they are; I just wasn't aware of it).
quote:
The other thing is the dissonant chord that is uses as tonic in Taranta (F# yes, but with dissonant open strings heard against) is not coming from pure old traditions. The true tonic chord F# was always played as a stable triad. Perhaps N> Ricardo or someone let a final chord ring with dissonance, but even PDL did not start doing that right away. Then even things like Solea started allowing that dissonant chord to ring as a final resolved chord, first one I know of that was not a stable triad was Vicente amigo 1991!!!.
So, question: Is there an implicit norm or rule such that taranta for solo guitar always must use F# as the tonic (with or without dissonant strings)?
I was assuming the answer was: 'Not necessarily, but tarantas typically use F# as the tonic, and any taranta that departs from that should be in dialogue with the tradition.'
Originally, I was thinking that, just as Gerardo recorded a Solea in the Rondeña tuning ("Soleá de la Luna Coja"), that one could create a taranta whose tonic was something other than F#. But if that's not right, then let me know!
So, question: Is there an implicit norm or rule such that taranta for solo guitar always must use F# as the tonic (with or without dissonant strings)?
No…however, in order to capture the “aire” properly the player needs to take care that the piece not sound like the wrong palo…and what we have been discussing is how the various palos take on their own “aire” via the KEY they are in on the guitar (unlike a piano say where every key sounds the same).
The best example I can give is this one where the normal key for Granaina is B but Manolo manages to transport important aspects to the key of C#(avoiding much of the Rondeña aire that shares the same notes). Please note that it comes at a great cost of open position chords that are mostly executed with barre positions here, but absolutely necessary (in his mind) in order to do as I explained. It also is a unique example where he is not just “echoing” the relationship to cante, he actually plays the cante melody at 4:50. That is not a requirement, but can drive the point home:
I think that those maestros have accompanied the cante of those forms and learned the traditional ornaments played between the sung lines so much that they naturally are able to expand upon those ideas to create those compositions. I would also have trouble drawing a straight line from the tradition to those pieces, but I don't have 20 years of playing for singers doing tarantas.
I have been recently studying playing for some libre forms and am learning some traditional and modern ornaments that have had no relevance in my involvement in flamenco before, because I've never had the opportunity to play for people singing libre forms. The limited experience I have is playing for cante used to support dancers.
It hasn't magically made me able to create a solo but it has opened the door to a much deeper understanding not only of the cante but what defines those forms on the guitar.
quote:
ORIGINAL: machopicasso
quote:
Decoupling the cante form from the guitar to make a solo instrumental is in questionable taste, and the huge reason people like Morante send constant reminders about the importance of the cante, as it is the basis of the FORMAL STRUCTURE of the palos…all of them, with possible exception the Rondeña (although we can say it is an alternative to Taranto/Minera etc, ie, a cante minero form).
I'm not trying to decouple something that's coupled, so to speak. Rather, as I mentioned in reply to orsonw, I'm not clear how, or even that, modern tarantas, like "Tio Sabas," "Callejon de la Luna," or Antonio's "Recuerdos" are constrained compositionally by the formal structure of the taranta cante. I was assuming that the modern guitar tarantas grew out of a tradition that was dominated by the cante, and that there are echoes of the latter in the former. But that the modern tarantas are based on the formal structure of the cante isn't clear to me. (I'm not denying that they are, if they are; I just wasn't aware of it).
quote:
The other thing is the dissonant chord that is uses as tonic in Taranta (F# yes, but with dissonant open strings heard against) is not coming from pure old traditions. The true tonic chord F# was always played as a stable triad. Perhaps N> Ricardo or someone let a final chord ring with dissonance, but even PDL did not start doing that right away. Then even things like Solea started allowing that dissonant chord to ring as a final resolved chord, first one I know of that was not a stable triad was Vicente amigo 1991!!!.
So, question: Is there an implicit norm or rule such that taranta for solo guitar always must use F# as the tonic (with or without dissonant strings)?
I was assuming the answer was: 'Not necessarily, but tarantas typically use F# as the tonic, and any taranta that departs from that should be in dialogue with the tradition.'
Originally, I was thinking that, just as Gerardo recorded a Solea in the Rondeña tuning ("Soleá de la Luna Coja"), that one could create a taranta whose tonic was something other than F#. But if that's not right, then let me know!
No…however, in order to capture the “aire” properly the player needs to take care that the piece not sound like the wrong palo…and what we have been discussing is how the various palos take on their own “aire” via the KEY they are in on the guitar (unlike a piano say where every key sounds the same).
The best example I can give is this one where the normal key for Granaina is B but Manolo manages to transport important aspects to the key of C#
Thanks. That's really helpful and what I was looking for in the way of clarification.
Can we be more specific about what constitutes the "aire" of taranta? In addition to things like mood and tone, I'm guessing it also consists, in part, in some of the standard chord progressions, phrases, and other things guitarists have typically played in taranta (e.g. dragging a nail from the 1st to the 6th string when playing the F# tonic while simultaneously hammering on and off the 6th string on the 2nd and 3rd frets and open string).
The example I just gave is the first that comes to mind. But I'm wondering if there are others that have a quasi-canonical status in the taranta guitar tradition, and ones that would be especially good to replicate if one tries to branch out with a different tonic or tuning.
Everything you wrote totally makes sense. It's a real challenge for those of us coming to flamenco via the most modern solo flamenco guitar and without the background common among the maestros.
For those who know the taranta cante well: If you could pick 3 clips available on YouTube that you think are the best and/or essential listening for understanding the cante in that palo, what would they be?
Here is Taranto (used to be called Minera de Pedro Morato, name changed post Chacon/Manuel Torre) followed by Cartagenera (de Rojo Alpargatero):
And again Taranto (ex-Minera de Morato again) and Taranta (de los Gabrielas ala niña de los Peines):
Please note the intro narration about rhythm is not important, these cantes are sung free style, so the MELODY defines them, as does Malagueña Granaina etc. Rhythm can apply to any cante with taste. Anyway those are pretty common cantes in my experience along with Levantica, all sung randomly over accompaniment by guitarists in the key of F# or G#. Levantica:
Here is an obscure version of Taranto/Taranta by Carmen Amaya that I think is made popular due to the dance genre spreading it and it being in rhythm (Sabicas plays in G# or Minera key):
Now less common these days are these cantes: Here is Cartagenera accomp. In key of Granaina:
And very similar or re-worked melody called Taranta (de Basilio), this time accompanied in key of Rondeña.
Please note that all those are SUPPOSED to be Fandango type structures, where you have moved away from Phrygian into relative major. However all those cantes mineros are characterized by the altered dominant chords (D7, E7 etc in Taranta) as implied by the cante melodies that emphasize these notes. This is a significant aspect of the “aire” of these songs vs normal Fandangos that tend to sick to natural notes (think simply that fandangos stick to white keys of a piano, where as Cantes Mineros use several black keys). Certain Malagueñas also sneak in the odd Flat7 (Bb in C major) and hence a Grouping of all Cantes Levantes with Cantes Mineros. Lyric sets are driving the formal structure and are interchangeable (4 or 5 line verses set up to rhyme and repeat creating the 6 part cadential chord progressions). If you notice the rhythm of Malaguenas is in slow or half time 3/4 vs say fandango de huelva, and modern scholars correctly believe that the slow 3/4 evolved into a 2/4 X 3 feeling that eventually becomes the modern compas of Taranto for baile (arbitrary 2/4, setting ANY of the cante melodies above to strict tempo).
I probably gave you too much but this post covers or simplifies rules/trends AND exceptions that were missconceptions in my own head when I was first learning.
If you could pick 3 clips available on YouTube that you think are the best and/or essential listening for understanding the cante in that palo, what would they be?
Another way that can be helpful is to choose one singer or letra that you like. Then compare different performances, and how different guitarists accompany them. The variations and exceptions point to 'rules' which don't exist in simple/concrete form beyond this basic fandangos structure below (which isn't always followed exactly). And this structure tells you nothing about all the particular phrases/melodies needed to accompany, create aire and move between chords. 1st line Tonic 2nd Subdominant 3rd Tonic 4th Dominant 5th Tonic 6th Subdominant to orignal tone/phrygian mode Tarantos 1.(A7) D 2. (D7) G 3.(A7) D 4.(E7) A 5.(A7) D 6.G—(G7)F#
E.g Camaron
Que arañaba con las uñas Un niño como un león Arañaba con las uñas. Es que hubo una derrumbación En una mina de Asturias Su pare dentro queó
En mi mente el orgullo y el querer Se pelean en mi mente Una guerra sin cuartel Una guerra son cuartel Donde no existe la muerte, Ay, solo existe una mujer.
Studio with Paco de Lucia: En mi mente
Live with Ramon de Algeciras. 1st letra: Que arañaba, 2nd: En mi mente
Tarantos 1.(A7) D 2. (D7) G 3.(A7) D 4.(E7) A 5.(A7) D 6.G—(G7)F#
E.g Camaron
Que arañaba con las uñas Un niño como un león Arañaba con las uñas. Es que hubo una derrumbación En una mina de Asturias Su pare dentro queó
En mi mente el orgullo y el querer Se pelean en mi mente Una guerra sin cuartel Una guerra son cuartel Donde no existe la muerte, Ay, solo existe una mujer.
Just some subtle clarifications. The melody of first and third sung lines resolves the last word (usually the same word) on a G note, as do several malagueña styles and Chacón’s Granaina. It is correct that the guitar respond with a D major chord, but I have heard some players get away with playing the Subdominant on those.
The second line of verse that for all fandango moves to subdominant, actually moves or cadences to DOMINANT on the last word in the Taranto Melody. This is particularly stated when this melody is sung for Baile, after which a dramatic rhythmic answer is delivered, taking it back to tonic. The way this is rationalized, I think, is that the guitar moves from D7-G then resolved to A7 as if a set up for the repeated first line. For free style as Camaron is doing, it is often that the second line connects back to the first, as a way to obscure the Dominant cadence (the word Leon takes us to A7 but he attached it back to Arañaba).
The second style I am not sure of the attribution, and could possibly be his creation, but it fits the form of Taranto, particularly on the second sung line where the word “Querer” punctuates with a breath, the cadence on the Dominant A7. “En mi Mente” is an abbreviated first sung line that is heard completely upon repeat. This can happen in any Fandango based form. With rhythm involved it is expressed as a half compas.
One last observation is that the penultimate line of verse (5) drops the note to tonic (F#) and this again can occur in any Fandango style, and some guitar players (such as Ramon’s examples here) actually play the tonic chord (F#) instead of the relative major (D). Essentially achieving a double cadence to Phrygian. I personally believe this evolved due to the early mixing of 4 line verse with 5 liners, as what happens is a 4 line verse concludes and most often repeats the last sung line, so I think guitar players got confused that the song is over (technically it is), so it was a safe play to resolve twice. It becomes a standard method over time, working with 5 liners too.
Thanks Ricardo. We'll have to make do with the tip jar on your website while we wait for the book I hope you write one day.
And thanks machopicasso. This tarantas has been on my list to study and this thread prompted me to take a closer look. It takes me a while to figure out the melodies. Here's today's attempt at first letra with Ramon Algeciras. So many quick runs of notes, sure I've got some wrong, usually takes me a few tries.
Another way that can be helpful is to choose one singer or letra that you like. Then compare different performances, and how different guitarists accompany them.
The C# that you have connecting the two is C natural (D7) plus the “Ay” that is part of ALL cante mineros at this spot. C-B resolves to G for the final cadence.
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