Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
At those moments i enjoyed the privilege to experience how it feels to play like Paco de Lucia for a few seconds or even minutes. It is funny (and frustrating) to realize that i (and probably many others) can basically play at PDL level if only we knew how to open that window to our subconsciousness.
Keep hearing about it, and I believe that it might feel like it or SEEM like it to the PLAYER's point of view, but simply put, I would have to hear it as the outsider. I seriously doubt that it is the same to the outside......
.....The truly exceptional players never seem to think they are as good as they are, always striving to do better.
Ricardo
That's a fair comment and hard to answer since i have no recordings of those rare moments. On top i didn't play his demanding music and i have no idea how i would have coped with a piece like la Barrosa at moments like that. But i'm pretty sure that no one could have played the music i played at those moments any better then my alien hands did, not even Paco himself. The funny thing is i actually witnessed it as an outsider because at those moments it wasn't me playing the guitar but "someone else". Since my brain had no involvement in the playing part at all (my hands were not responsive to my brain during these hijacks) i could totally use my ears, eyes and brain to observe it in the same way i use to observe other players and to me those moments did indeed totally feel like it was someone else playing the guitar with me as a spectator.
Normally i always hear things that should be played better, not only in my own playing but also in the playing of others (including PDL). But at those moments i could only enjoy the perfection. Only once it happened to me in public. Nobody paid any attention to my playing until the moment my alien friend honored me with a visit (at the time i was still convinced it wasn't me playing the guitar at those moments but some alien energy force hijacking my body). Suddenly everybody was all ear and attention and enjoying the magic. When the last notes fade away so did my alien friend, the magic was over and soon nobody paid any attention to my playing again. But when we left the building (hours after the performance) for the first time ever (and since) the audience honored me with a second ovation because everybody present realized how exceptional that moment has been. Unfortunately that day (26-2-1994) was the last time my alien friend honored me with a visit. I've had some great moments since but even at my best moments it doesn't even come close to what i (or better said my alien friend) was capable of at those moments.
I value and share your critical note and would have responded the very same way but on the other hand how many players do you know who every now and then are hijacked by an alien energy source taking over total control of there hands and there music at levels way beyond there normal capacities (which at the time were extremely high to begin with)? I call it alien hands because from 1 second to the other they are totally cut of/immune to brain commands. For seconds or even minutes those alien hands played music that was often totally strange to me with techniques and musical ideas that sometimes seemed to come from another planed. I'm not talking about personal moments of inspiration here (i had plenty of those, playing at extremely high levels without very much brain involvement, just trusting my well trained hands and instincts), i'm talking about being hijacked by someone who can play the guitar a 1000 times better then i can play it myself. The distinction with slightly similar moments of extreme inspiration is that in above situation my hands are not responsive to brain pulses at all and quite often did the very opposite of what i expected them to do.
Do you (or anyone else) know any other players who enjoyed moments like that? I think it's a fascinating thing and like to know more about it. Only once i met someone who had similar moments. He was also the one who told me it was not an alien source talking over control of the body but that it is your subconsciousness taking over control by totally overruling the brain. He used to meditate before every performance and happened to be one of the most exiting performers i've ever seen on stage.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Erich, your account of being able to play with wonderful efficacy and ease remind me of some passages from Harold Taylor's book, "The Pianist's Talent". It is a strange book, comparing the teaching of a blind pianist named Thiberge with the Alexander Technique. Taylor claims that the great piano prodigies are blessed with incredible coordination that allows them to "perform without training" (his definition of talent). That coordination is analogous or the same thing as the Alexander Technique's idea of good use of the body. With this coordination or good use, light-boned 10 year olds can pound enormous fortissimos while spinning dozens of notes a second. Taylor also says in an off-hand comment, that we normal people can only aspire, with ardous training in the Alexander technique, to arrive where the great talents begin; and that with daily effort and attention we can only begin to sporadically duplicate some of the things they do simply as their nature. Taylor would probably define those moments of ease you experienced as times when you temporarily performed with greater coordination of your body. They are so elusive because they require us to move and channel our energy in ways we usually don't--or we would always do that! It's a tantalizing and maddening concept!
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
Do you (or anyone else) know any other players who enjoyed moments like that?
Me. It occured several times. I don´t recall any disconnection between brain and hands as you experienced it, but else it was quite in the way that you describe. Out of a sudden I was playing things I normally wouldn´t know how to and in the same time virtuoso so and very beautifully. It were moments of incredible delight that really felt as if some blessed else was using my body.
However, I also suppose that there was merely unleashed of the unconscious treasure.
If we were to train offspring in making deliberate use of the unconsciousness we would be surrounded with prodigies and genius. -
Funny you mention such. I was just spinning about similar fancy recently when talking to the luthier who is building my guitar.
Looking at pics of work in progress I spotted some grain figure on the guitar that is shaped as if a cadaverous hand was stroking the instrument. And me wrote to him: "Thought it ought to be something either monstrous or not spooky at all …
Then it came to me that this ought to be Tarrega´s hand. Tarrega was much too passionate to let the conduct on the guitar be limited to his lifetime. Only terribly spoiled with outstanding guitars, he was geared to wait until a very certain instrument. One that he had imagined already with all detail. Sizes, shapes and shades. The minute it would come about, the guitar would then carry Tarrega´s musical spirit, and inspire anyone who would take this precious piece of artisan in hands.
Despite of so many of splendid specimens of luthiery since Tarregas passing away, it took about 104 years until his very tailored instrument was actually created."
There you see what delirious anticipation does to humble men.
Erich, your account of being able to play with wonderful efficacy and ease remind me of some passages from Harold Taylor's book, "The Pianist's Talent". It is a strange book, comparing the teaching of a blind pianist named Thiberge with the Alexander Technique. Taylor claims that the great piano prodigies are blessed with incredible coordination that allows them to "perform without training" (his definition of talent). That coordination is analogous or the same thing as the Alexander Technique's idea of good use of the body. With this coordination or good use, light-boned 10 year olds can pound enormous fortissimos while spinning dozens of notes a second. Taylor also says in an off-hand comment, that we normal people can only aspire, with ardous training in the Alexander technique, to arrive where the great talents begin; and that with daily effort and attention we can only begin to sporadically duplicate some of the things they do simply as their nature. Taylor would probably define those moments of ease you experienced as times when you temporarily performed with greater coordination of your body. They are so elusive because they require us to move and channel our energy in ways we usually don't--or we would always do that! It's a tantalizing and maddening concept!
Hi Miguel, as you may have noted I am a staunch advocate of Alexander technique. But also I am skeptical of the usefuleness of books on the subject.
I am afraid the the one you describe seems to fall into the New Age Self Help genre. Too often these books leave us tantalized and maddened. Children learn more easily but from Yehudi Menuhin to Art Tatum to Paco, Grisha and Jeronimo they have almost without exception had fine teachers and a well rounded musical education.
Training in Alexander Technique is not arduous, if it seems so then Alexander Technique is not what is being done.
Here is a link to a film about some musical prodigies. When I watched this I was struck by the variation in results between the two teaching philosophies presented. Firstly Derek Paravicini has had an intense teaching relationship with a bona fide musician who taught him technique in a methodical and sensitive way. The other 'prodigy' has been saddled with charlatans and new age philosophy.
The fruits of this second approach are scant to say the least. Please enjoy the film and note the difference.
For a useful book on Alexander Technique for musicians I heartily recommend 'Indirect Procedures' by Pedro de Alacantere
For an understanding of Alexander Technique I wish you luck in finding a teacher. I would personally avoid anyone who sports a crystal about their person.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to davidheis_24)
quote:
ORIGINAL: davidheis_24
do you have any videos uploads erik?
Only 1 but it doesn't show me at a moment like that. I happen to know 3 different levels of playing and the video shows me on a good moment in the LOWEST level.
LEVEL 1:
I play the guitar only when i feel like it (sometimes i skip days or even weeks) and i don't really study technique at all. As a result i completely depend on the mood of the day... on a good day my playing is good enough for stage, on a bad day i can't find a single string. Practice and daily routine only raise my bottom level but not my top level. I have moments that i haven't played for weeks, pick up the guitar and (after a couple of minutes) play the guitar better then ever. But the next day i can't find a single string again.
In periods i play the guitar on a daily base for a couple of weeks my bottom level rapidly raises, i hardly have real off days anymore and averagely play at 70-90% of my (level 1) capacities. Some moments i play way over a 100% (as mentioned this could also happen after weeks of not playing) which made me wonder how good can i become if i really made an effort? To find out a couple of times i was tempted to study technique on a daily base but it didn't help me a bit. As i know now results didn't come because i only practiced to please the clock, my teacher or as an excuse to move my fingers... what failed was focus and a intense desire to produce the goods.
LEVEL 2:
Once i put in focus (and sold my soul to the devil) things started to change in incredible speeds. You kneed to know there is focus and focus. It took me quite a wile before i was able to focus with focus. Day's even weeks could pass without me being able to find the right state of mind. Quite often after 5 minutes of intended focus i totally collapsed and didn't want to see the guitar for the rest of the day. But gradually 5 minutes became 10 minutes, 10 minutes became 15 minutes until i reached a mental state that allowed me to focus for 1 hour. Only then i am ready to face level 2.
The first week i only studied 1 hour a day.... but in that 1 hour i put in more (mental) energy than i (and most of you) will add to 1 year of mindless playing. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out i lost way over a kilo of weight during each hour of training dude to sweating. That 1 hour felt like i running (and winning) a marathon and at first i needed 10-12 hours of additional sleep to be able to survive/evaluate/store that hour of information (later 6/7).
What did i do in that hour? The first time i did start with doing the exercises i learned from my father but i soon found out operating/monitoring/correcting 10 fingers simultaneously was asked a little bit to much. It's a given fact the brain can only monitor/control 1 thing at the time and wile you focus on 1 thing most other things go wrong (which is rather contra productive). I believe the best way to program myself with perfect technique (and to end up with a perfect brain and wiring) is not only to focus at 1 thing at the time but preferably to do only 1 thing at the time as well (which means leaving out everything that is not the point of my focus). So i started studying left and right hand separately, only to find out 4 fingers were still way to much to control. So i started to study individual fingers /phalanges focusing on movement/biomechanics/relaxation etc. That is when things started to happen.
For a start i placed a single finger on string (without pressing/plugging it) and i lifted it again. After doing this for a wile (focusing on movement, biomechanics and relaxation) i put away the guitar and repeated that move in my mind only, trying to relive what i observed (as real as possible).
Next i developed a hole series of left hand exercises using what i call the twilight zone (the 2 mm that separates the untouched string from the fret). Most of us cover that distance without thinking but you'll be amazed what you can learn from just holding a string halfway starting position and the fretboard for a while, studying (and appreciating) the energy exchange between finger and string. Again, as soon as i found some truth i put away the guitar and tried to relive that exact feeling in my mind only as reel as reel can be (still feeling the energy floating from finger to string and from string to finger).
Next step is to vary the amount of pressure added. Since your brain can only handle 1 impression at the time i practiced all things various times in a row, 1 moment i would focus completely on the biomechanics involved, the next moment on optimal relaxation and the next moment on the various levels of energy exchange between the finger and the string. Regularly i would put away the guitar in order to repeat my observations in my mind only, trying to relive the move, the biomechanics, the relaxation, the finger/string interaction and the energy exchange between them as real as real can be...... aspect by aspect, finger by finger, phalange by phalange, muscle by muscle, nerve by nerve. Also i used mental visualization to picture myself what i was hoping to achieve (so it was a 2 way interaction often based on intuitive conceptualization).
I developed a whole series of the twilight exercises. Remember that 2 mm that separates the untouched string from the fret? A nice exercise is to place a finger on string and travel that distance as slowly as possible, touch the fret and then travel back to starting position as slowly as possible as well. It takes a lot of control and concentration to cover that distance with almost invisibly speed without tempting to speed up or stand still. As a matter of fact i never was able to complete all 4 fingers on a row without collapsing at one point or the other.
An other nice one is to hold the string halfway the twilight zone with 4 fingers on the same string (pushing/holding it 1 mm from 12th fret). Next 1 finger is favored to be lifted (and replanted) at various speeds while the remaining 3 fingers hold the sting right were it is. So your brain must tell 1 finger to lift (and replant) while telling the other 3 fingers to hold position AND remain constant pressure (the challenge is that string should remain were it is and since it is located "in the air" 1 mm above the 12th fret even the slightest change of pressure will alter it's position). Once you can do it with 1 finger at the time, try to lift 2 or 3 selected fingers at the time. It takes a while before you can lift 2 fingers (while the other 2 control the string) then bring them back and change guard with the other 2 in 1 fluent movement.
The variations you can create are endless. In above situation (4 left hand fingers holding the same string aired 1-1,5 mm from the 12th fret) you can also favor 1 or more fingers to push that string a bit closer to the fret while the other fingers stay behind (they consequently loose contact with the string that is pushed away from them until the string makes contact again on it's way back). You can select any amount or combination of fingers, operating the same string or various strings at the time, holding one finger/string, pushing/lifting the other. Fingers can hop from 1 string to the other etc.etc.etc.
I had numerous exercises like that going from "easy" (finger tipping a string or holding it halfway the twilight zone for a wile) to very difficult ones (various fingers holding 1 or more strings aired while selected fingers ad/diminish pressure ore are lifted/replaced). When done in the twilight zone you can detect even the smallest change of pressure.
This is extremely demanding to both your brain and your wiring (nerves and muscles). If you move a string halfway the twilight zone for a minute (adding more and less pressure to your likings) your brain and wiring are challenged for a full minute as well so it is time very well spend. On top growing/new demands will generate new brain cells/wiring that are specialized in that new task. If you make sure EVERYTHING you do is done perfect (by studying very small things at the time with total control and especially by consolidating the very best outcomes by mental visualization) that new brain and wiring hopefully doesn't know any better then to function perfect.
On top of my twilight exercises i did the usual left hand exercises (scales, crossovers, bindings... everything focussing on very small aspects at the time which demands extremely sublimated exercises like a simple 1234). I also did similar right hand exercises (starting with investigating individual phalanges, fingers, finger/string interactions, energy generating/exchange, understanding/applying optimal biomechanics, relaxation etc later fallowed by well chosen (and again very sublimated) flamenco technique exercises.
Even when i added left hand scales they were practiced at various levels. Since my brain can only monitor/correct 1 thing at the time i calculated everything back to 1 position to be able to concentrate on the economical use of the fingers and hand without being distracted by the (additional) change of positions (which is done by the arm which was practiced separately and in combination as well). Just for fun i also recalculated multi string melody scales to 1 string (separating finger combinations from string-walking as well). After studying a couple of weeks like that my brain embraced the idea and soon playing the guitar felt like there was only 1 position (and often only 1 string) ....funny enough soon my little finger became the point of reference in stead of my index, in the same way violin players do.
To enter level 2 i did lots of fully concentrated exercises like that. I studied individual phalanges/fingers, biomechanics, relaxation, energy transposal/generating, did tons of tonal experiences (studying single note sound-developments at all possible techniques and ways/levels of energy input etc. This totally changed my way of playing (both technically and musically). Obviously i also re-studied my repertoire from scratch and soon i knew from every single note how i wanted it to sound and how to achieve that... starting with single notes, group of notes and working my way up to falsetas and pieces. Within 40 hours of studying like this (including many hours of mental visualization) my understanding of my body and the guitar was of such level i could play my repertoire 100% to my likings (time after time) and i was able to change things instantly and without additional practice. Within 40 hours i had grown from a caterpillar into a beautiful butterfly. No longer i had to suffer bad moods/days because my best level from level 1 became my new bottom level.
It didn't came easy, every single day i went to hell and back and after each hour of practice (investing tons and tons of mental energy) i was a total wreck and needed 6-8 hours of sleep to recover (after which it was time for another hour of practice). The first week i studied 1 hour a day, the second week 2 hours a day, the 3th week 3 hours a day and the 4th week 4 hours a days but around that time there was nothing left to improve yet, except finding a window to level 3 and /or a way of playing i sometimes experienced which involved playing on a more spiritual level using thoughts rather then muscles. My days were filed with practicing (3 hours) and sleeping (the other 21 hours). Every single day i emptied my mind (no room for new ideas if you are filed with old ones) and every single day i started at scratch.... tipping the strings with individual fingers, apply a little pressure without fully fretting/plugging to become 1 with the string etc.etc. working my way up bit by bit again and again but with growing understanding.
After 4 weeks i stopped, not from exhaustion but because i realized i probably had to play this every single day over a 2 year period in order to get it in my system permanently. Especially i get bored with playing the same flamenco pieces over and over again just to get them in my system permanently, especially since there was nothing to improve/discover anymore (i know this sounds ridiculous but it's the honest truth). Another aspect was i didn't want to play other peoples music but in stead wanted my compositions to become equally good. Not a very easy thing to do and far more demanding then learning how to play the guitar at decent levels.
So i stopped putting in energy and lost level 2 almost as fast as i gained it (it was all still very much brain controlled and not part of my system yet so without support of my brain, heart and soul it just vanished) but it gave me invaluable insights in how to study. 1 year later i tried again with similar results. In total i walked that path 4 times with similar results. Finding the right state of mind always was the hardest bit, even harder than walking to hell and back. Level 2 involves total control of your body and mind (and on that level of your playing). Still rhythm remained my weak spot (most pieces i played fortunately offered room for a more or less flexible rhythm) and so was playing picado on 5th and 6th string.
LEVEL 3:
During those intense study weeks i frequently experienced what i call level 3. Imagine you can run very fast, so fast you don't have to worry about your technique anymore (level 2) ... but suddenly during 1 of your training sessions you somehow become lifted from the ground and remain in the air for a few seconds. It happens again, and again and sometimes you can even fly for a couple of minutes. That's how my alien hand felt. From one second to the other something took over control of my hands and made them play in ways i've never played before, applying partly different techniques, different music, different energy flow etc. Not only were my hands operated by somebody else but they refused to respond to my brain as well (which probably was a good thing as well considering the ridiculous level of playing)...when my brain told my left hand to go to the left in order to graph the certain chord it would go to the right in stead playing a chord i didn't even know existed but sounded way better then the one i hand in mind. They often played unknown but very beautiful lines with funny notes/techniques. I often had no idea what the next phrase would be, but my hands sure did and presented a way of playing/composing i can only dream of. I did experience some of the alternative ways of energy exchange in my own playing as well but never was able to grasp/cultivate it. My hands seemed to know it better then i do.
At the time i thought it was somebody else entering my body. Now i believe it was my subconsciousness taking over control of my mind. I always had to wait patiently until it honored me with a visit again and have no clue how to open that window myself (maybe it was indeed the fact i emptied my mind on a daily base in that period of time or the incredible focus and passion i put into my study (it almost only happened during those study sessions with the exception of the last (public) visit which happened 1 year later). If you add all my level 3 moments it makes a total of probably less then 30 minutes.
Since 1992 i haven't entered level 2 or 3 anymore (they only occurred in the 16 weeks i gave my soul to it and went to hell and back to demand results). But various foro members play on similar levels or beyond (like that alma tremolo of Luciano...no way i can play that but i might have have had a very small change during 1 of my rare level 3 moments...hard to tell but i don't think my alien hand could have coped with that tune).
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Thanks, GB, I actually read "Indirect Procedures". The whole AT concept is interesting, but I guess I have never had the guts/financial resources to spend the $1000 that was the minimum package around here. It certainly is fascinating how some people "use" their body more efficiently than others.
I guess I have never had the guts/financial resources to spend the $1000 that was the minimum package around here.
WTF a thousand bucks ???????
It would be cheaper to come to Scotland and I could give you a week of lessons for two hundred.
Seriously though there must be some good teachers there who aren't mercenary bastar>s keep looking man. It should be no more expensive than a good guitar lesson. And do you really need to sign up for a thousand bucks worth to find an honest practitioner ? I doubt it. In fact I might go so far as to suggest that anyone who wants a grand up front has no place in teaching.
D.
Anyway I am glad you read Indirect Procedures. As far as I know, for all my proselytizing, you are the first foro member to do so.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Anyway I am glad you read Indirect Procedures. As far as I know, for all my proselytizing, you are the first foro member to do so.
I've read it. I thought it was interesting in so far as it related to the specifics of music but didn't rate highly as an Alexander Technique book.
....But then I've actually studied Alexander's books, and am of the educated opinion that as the expression of the source of the work (Alexander's term for what he taught) very little else comes close.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
....But then I've actually studied Alexander's books, and am of the educated opinion that as the expression of the source of the work (Alexander's term for what he taught) very little else comes close.
Hmm, you are certainly entitled to your opinion Mark. But I feel that I should feel free to recommend as I see fit. My teacher actually recommended Zen in the Art of Archery as a text which could be approached by someone without experience to give a flavour of the work.
As previously stated she also recommended Walter Carrington (compilation of speeches which his pupils collected from tape, he never wrote, I was surprised you never picked up on that) and I enjoyed those.
With Alexanders original texts she chose to draw my attention to those chapters which dealt with specifics that we were covering in the lesson. And whilst I find his work when invested in incredibly vivid and immersive still would not recommend it to someone with no experience of the work.
If you do fine, I do not.
If you wish to recommend it to ME then that's ok too. Any time spent revisiting and refining descriptions of the work generally pays dividends so maybe I will dust them off, and thank you for your suggestions.
If you want to pursue a non adversarial discussion on Alexander Technique then that would be rewarding so please continue. But if all you want to do is insist that I am recommending the wrong books whilst yourself offering very little in the way of positive input then I suppose I will simply remain confused as to what you are hoping to achieve.
Do you (or anyone else) know any other players who enjoyed moments like that?
Me. It occured several times. I don´t recall any disconnection between brain and hands as you experienced it, but else it was quite in the way that you describe. Out of a sudden I was playing things I normally wouldn´t know how to and in the same time virtuoso so and very beautifully. It were moments of incredible delight that really felt as if some blessed else was using my body.
It comes very very close but it misses the hijacking part. I enjoyed similar moments like you described as well a couple of times and those are indeed moments of incredible delight. But despite the fact my brain seems to play no part in those moments, i play at levels far beyond my normal capacities and sometimes even improvise complex and totally new lines of music that is played with incredible ease it still feels very much like me playing the guitar, leaving control to my subconsciousness and hands rather then my brain.
I notice i call it subconsciousness in both situations but despite similar outcomes it feels totally different. Above moments of delight still miss the highjacking part i was telling about were my brain was not only not involved but also completely cut of. At those rare moments i could actually feel that power entering my body. I'm not sure but i believe i was able to notice it's entrance split seconds before magic started to happen, like i was friendly pushed away by someone saying "leave that to me kid"; that's how noticeable it's presence was. I also would now in a split second that it left my body again. All i know is that at moments like that (feeling the presence of an other spirit) my brain had no control over my hands anymore and they frequently did quite the opposite of what i expected them them to do..... when i anticipated them to go to the left for a certain chord they would go to the right playing a way better chord i didn't even know existed. I have no idea if i could force my my hands to stop playing at such moments (i would be crazy to do so) but i could not influence there activities at all. I guess it was just another level of subconsciousness with the power to overrule the brain. The one you described is equally impressive/pleasant in execution and most fortunately still happens to me every now and then (and i guess to many others, unless they already play at those levels to begin with).
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
I guess Shamans like those of Mongolian tribes would only shrug shoulders when hearing of your experience. To them, and other occultists like in Latin America the taking posession of soemone´s body through some spirit, not only human spirit, but sometimes of animals too, ought to be self-evident.
Some westerners even risk their reputation for thinking to have wittnessed such mind swap so realistically.
I remember a report in GEO ( a German magazin) from the seventies or eighties where an ethnologist reported in all seriousness about a shaman session, and how the shaman had called some animal spirits who then would clearly raise their voices in the corners of the room, replying to the shaman with human language.
I was amazed how the academic woman risked her reputation that way. For me it appeared clear that no scientifical institution would engage her again anytime soon.
For my part I consider thelike things finally explainable by tricks and other complementing conditions ( there beside is being officially offered one mio bucks for who can scientifically prove paraphenomenal appearance anywhere. - The money still being untouched), and in the same time my life is filled with occurances that appear as mystic as can be.
Anyway, whether actual taking over of other spirits or just of our own subconsciousness, the virtuous moments we are talking about definitly are something amazing.
I guess Shamans like those of Mongolian tribes would only shrug shoulders when hearing of your experience. To them, and other occultists like in Latin America the taking posession of soemone´s body through some spirit, not only human spirit, but sometimes of animals too, ought to be self-evident.
Some westerners even risk their reputation for thinking to have wittnessed such mind swap so realistically.
I remember a report in GEO ( a German magazin) from the seventies or eighties where an ethnologist reported in all seriousness about a shaman session, and how the shaman had called some animal spirits who then would clearly raise their voices in the corners of the room, replying to the shaman with human language.
I was amazed how the academic woman risked her reputation that way. For me it appeared clear that no scientifical institution would engage her again anytime soon.
For my part I consider thelike things finally explainable by tricks and other complementing conditions ( there beside is being officially offered one mio bucks for who can scientifically prove paraphenomenal appearance anywhere. - The money still being untouched), and in the same time my life is filled with occurances that appear as mystic as can be.
Anyway, whether actual taking over of other spirits or just of our own subconsciousness, the virtuous moments we are talking about definitly are something amazing.
Ruphus
Amazing mystic experiences? Is this the same Ruhpus????
As in other topics we talked about this, I feel these occurrences are (in my opinion) a form of hypnosis. The perceptions of the individual change as the mind opens to suggestion. Even false memories can be created that are quite vivid. Reality of the physical world remains and as you say, the reward money stays put.
Amazing mystic experiences? Is this the same Ruhpus????
This ought to have been what a literally breathtakingly beautiful Ecuadorian girl must have thought when I started telling mysteries of my life, right after having actually stated to be not superstitious.
That was the first time when I realized how many weird stories there actually had happened in my life; ... and that I lost her. She was very young and hadn´t expected that an integer person can be appearing so contradictory. And so her attitude changed from adoring to indifferent. So long, Isa, super mouse. - Hope you made your degree and are now the journalist you wanted to become.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo As in other topics we talked about this, I feel these occurrences are (in my opinion) a form of hypnosis. The perceptions of the individual change as the mind opens to suggestion. Even false memories can be created that are quite vivid. Reality of the physical world remains and as you say, the reward money stays put.
Agreed. Remearkable however - like always with the unconsciousness- that the false memories do contain the meticulous detail and knowledge of masterly performance. All probably absorbed while watching masters play, plus a couple pieces of general wisdom in terms of physical coordination and musical phrasing.
Blessed are those who ever learned to deliberately open that suggestive door to the unconsciousness.
Remearkable however - like always with the unconsciousness- that the false memories do contain the meticulous detail and knowledge of masterly performance. All probably absorbed while watching masters play, plus a couple pieces of general wisdom in terms of physical coordination and musical phrasing.
Blessed are those who ever learned to deliberately open that suggestive door to the unconsciousness.
Ruphus
Science figured out that performing a movement in your mind generates the same nerve responses as doing the movement for real (that's why i favored to apply mental visualisation a lot because then you can imprint a pure and undisturbed movement). Science also claims that when we watch other peoples movements our body tend to mirror/generate the matching nerve pulses. I guess this mirroring will be even more effective when we have (or obtain) similar specialized/trained wiring and brains. It's a fact that if i started my training hour without a proper warming up my brain somehow switched into "rush mode" and temporary became un-compatible with serious training. The only way to reset my system was either to wait a couple of hours.................. or to watch a 30 minute video of Paco de Lucia.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Hmm, you are certainly entitled to your opinion Mark.
.....
If you want to pursue a non adversarial discussion on Alexander Technique then that would be rewarding so please continue. But if all you want to do is insist that I am recommending the wrong books whilst yourself offering very little in the way of positive input then I suppose I will simply remain confused as to what you are hoping to achieve.
I wonder how much you really believe that I am entitled to an opinion, as you seem to find me having an opinion different to yours so adversarial.
As I have explained in much greater detail in reply to your PM, I don't know if there is any basis for discussion, because I think we have very different conceptions of what the Alexander Technique is, so perhaps all I can "achieve" is to represent an alternate viewpoint.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Todays top in athletics are being trained by this phenomenon. Think to have mentioned the example of formula one racers who circle rounds in mind accurately to tenths or hundredths of seconds.
Most productive to success in general is the accurate detail of one´s anticipation / imagination. The more accurate the more easily.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
As I have explained in much greater detail in reply to your PM, I don't know if there is any basis for discussion, because I think we have very different conceptions of what the Alexander Technique is, so perhaps all I can "achieve" is to represent an alternate viewpoint.
So your sole intent is indeed to contradict me. Oh well I guess I'll look forward to more of this tone ;
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
'....But then I've actually studied Alexander's books, and am of the educated opinion that as the expression of the source of the work (Alexander's term for what he taught) very little else comes close.'
I am sorry that you have not grasped why I recommend that book to musicians who have never had AT lessons. It actually seems obvious to me, in fact painfully so.
I always thought the basic starting point for discussion was common courtesy and an open mind. Although I have abandoned these too often it has seldom been with lasting pride. Sometimes I even try to sneak back and collect them.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Science figured out that performing a movement in your mind only generates the same nerve responses as doing the movement for real
Erik, can you give any references for this research, pls, as I would like to follow it up?
i picked this one up from one of the many scientific documentaries i see on television.
MRI imaging tracking hallucinations in Schizophenics can be found throughout the web.
If you read this article then it should become apparent that there is good evidance that visualisation can enhance neural networks which were previously assumed to require direct sensory input.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
As I have explained in much greater detail in reply to your PM, I don't know if there is any basis for discussion, because I think we have very different conceptions of what the Alexander Technique is, so perhaps all I can "achieve" is to represent an alternate viewpoint.
quote:
So your sole intent is indeed to contradict me.
I think there is a difference between proffering a different point of view and contradicting someone. My intent is to represent Alexander's work as I understand it. (If what you wrote here was true then I would just have replied "No" )
quote:
Oh well I guess I'll look forward to more of this tone;
quote:
'....But then I've actually studied Alexander's books, and am of the educated opinion that as the expression of the source of the work (Alexander's term for what he taught) very little else comes close.'
I guess on reflection I could have worded that a little differently, and I might have said "....having studied Alexander's books I am of the (educated) opinion that as the expression of the source of the work (Alexander's term for what he taught) very little else comes close."
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
I guess on reflection I could have worded that a little differently, and I might have said "....having studied Alexander's books I am of the (educated) opinion that as the expression of the source of the work (Alexander's term for what he taught) very little else comes close."
btw your inbox is (still) full
Hi Mark, my inbox is now clear.
I note that you are not the first foromember to overestimate my concern with grammar.
RE: how hard is too hard? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
I note that you are not the first foromember to overestimate my concern with grammar.
why do you think I "overestimate your concern with grammar"? I hadn't thought anything about you having a concern with grammar.
You complained about my tone, and I recognised that the tone in what I wrote wasn't so great, so I changed it. But you are still not happy. Perhaps you are not actually bothered about the "tone" but the content.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread