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Silly Genealogy   You are logged in as Guest
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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3436
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

Silly Genealogy 

In the Andalusian Guitar thread, to yank my chain, Estebanana asked me which of the following I was related to: Henry II of England, Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury, notoriously murdered during Henry's reign; Henry VIII of England, his first wife Catherine of Aragon, and Thomas More, once Henry VIII's chief minister, who was tried for treason and executed after opposing the king's divorce from Catherine.

This got me thinking about the general silliness of extended genealogies.

According to English public records, my ancestor (on paper at least) Jernegan FitzHugh married a daughter of William de Huntingfield, one of the barons who signed Magna Carta in 1215. This document set out the rights of the English barons, as against King John. Huntingfield's wife was a French countess. Published genealogies show her descent from Charlemagne, the first to rule an extensive European empire after the collapse of Rome. This makes me the descendant of Charlemagne's grandfather, Charles Martel, born in 688. Martel repelled the Islamic advance into Europe at the battle of Tours, certainly a turning point in history. Wikipedia says Martel is considered the "founding figure of the Middle Ages." Pretty hot stuff, eh?

A moment's googling reveals that at least Henry II and Catherine of Aragon were descendants of Charlemagne. It would surprise me if Henry VIII were not. So the answer to Estebanana's question is that I am "related" to at least two of the above notables.

But look how silly this is. If you do the math, Charlemagne's personal contribution to my genome is far less than the anonymous Neanderthals, who according to recent research, contributed 2.5% of the average European's genetic makeup.

People who pride themselves on a very long genealogy are just being goofy. If you think about it, as your pedigree goes back further and further, it gets less and less important.

I think it was Addison who wrote in "The Spectator," lampooning some 18th-century English toff, "He boasted such a lengthened succession of distinguished forebears, that they trod the Earth well before the appearance of the First Man."

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 1:48:14
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Neanderthals, who according to recent research, contributed 2.5% of the average European's genetic makeup.


Has this been proven? Last I heard it was still speculative.......

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 1:56:18
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3436
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Leñador

Depends on what you mean by "proven". The arguments supporting it are based on some pretty arcane statistical work. Statistics having been a part of my professional career, I learned to read the details of any claim pretty carefully. All I have read about this have been journalistic accounts. But

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=neandertal-genome-study-r

the Scientific American has been pretty reliable over the decades I have been a regular reader.

Did the Scientific American have someone on their staff check the statistical work? I doubt it. But the people they quote have pretty good reputations, and SciAm does call around a fair amount before they print something.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 2:06:23
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Fair enough, I'll buy it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 2:18:57
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

This got me thinking about the general silliness of extended genealogies.

According to English public records, my ancestor (on paper at least) Jernegan FitzHugh married a daughter of William de Huntingfield, one of the barons who signed Magna Carta in 1215. This document set out the rights of the English barons, as against King John. Huntingfield's wife was a French countess. Published genealogies show her descent from Charlemagne, the first to rule an extensive European empire after the collapse of Rome. This makes me the descendant of Charlemagne's grandfather, Charles Martel, born in 688. Martel repelled the Islamic advance into Europe at the battle of Tours, certainly a turning point in history. Wikipedia says Martel is considered the "founding figure of the Middle Ages." Pretty hot stuff, eh?


Very clever maneuver, Richard, using the subterfuge of "the silliness of extended genealogy" as a means to convey to the readership your royal and aristocratic European lineage!

(Just yanking your chain, my friend.)

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 10:05:03
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

In Near East there are millions running around thinking they were stemming from a same Middle Age fellow.


As you will know, genetics are not the stable thread that people used to think.
In fact one´s genetic material changes all the time and reflects on actual status quo in life.

Actually I was told just two days ago by a friend in Germany about another aspect reported on in a documentary, which was that the rising global ignorance might be partially bound to genetics.

Could be making sense, indeed. If you prefer the sports pages in your daily newspaper the offspring of such habits might not become an investigative thinker either.
And if you take into consideration how bright and incorruptable heads have chiefly been treated ( namely muted and eliminated) during past millenias dictatures, late menkind is obviously carving its genetics for opportunist and bovine being.

Anyway, I found my friends´ describing of that documentary interesting ( had been considering such, but only glancing) and plausible.

What might count could be what your parents or grandparents state of mind has been when they produced their offspring.

Just as it is a pity that we seem obviously rather stemming from chimpanzees instead of from bonobos.
Too bad. >shrugs shoulders< ;O|

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 10:54:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

..And now Ladies and Gentlemen I will demonstrate the correct way to defenestrate oneself.

Observe!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 11:33:49
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Oh sorry, I meant desharkastration.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 11:39:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Japanese geneology is important, they keep long lines of ancestors. Being an island nation, like Britain, they have a more selective, or smaller gene pool, but not as much mixing with the continental families as in English history. They are still quite tied to lineage i daily life; As Yuko's dad goes about town with us and meets someone who lives in this small city, but whom he has never met they often comment on his name. Fumoto, which means "the hood of the mountain" as in the snow line of a great mountain such as Fuijsan. The person Yoshimori meets will reflect for few seconds and say Fumoto is an uncommon name, which it is, and then say "Hmm, Fumoto is an old samurai name in Southern Kyushu." and everyone one nods in agreement as if some important fact has been dispensed. It's still something people take note of if you have a remote connection to the samurai periods.

On another note which this subject reminds me of, when I hear people talk about being reincarnated, I marvel that they so frequently lay claims to the reincarnated soul of a famous person. Of the names I have heard in the more than once category there are: The Queen of Sheba, Cleopatra, Napoleon, various pharaohs notably Ramses and Tut, but often Nefertiti and one guy who told me several time he was John "Kew" Dodd the English bow maker. ( John Dodd drank a drink called "pearl" evidently it was comprised of gin and milk, just thought i would throw that in.)

Does anyone ever claim to be the reincarnation of some poor schlub who was in a caste in India that cleaned latrines? Not usually. It leaves me asking the question, how many souls did Napoleon actually have? If you know the Harry Potter books you may know it is possible, in Potterland at least, to split a soul up into several parts and manifest them in different beings, sort of reincarnating them so one person lives in several other people, or snakes. So I'm wondering if these famous people who are reincarnated may in fact be merely related distantly to Nefertiti and perhaps not be Nefertiti herself?

Richards thoughtful and engaging examination of silly geneology may in fact have cracked open this reincarnation hoax. The next person you meet who claims to be the walking talking embodiment of Ramses I, may have been in reality a simple chamber server maid, or a beer swilling pyramid building oaf. I think we can safely close up those family registry tomes that the fancy pants East Coast Blue Blood families leave lying about on side tables in alabaster swaddled entry halls. We know now that at least 2.5% of that blue blood in those veins is of Neanderthaler origin and some unknown percentage is a blend of reincarnate social climbing blood, Egyptian no less.

The real problems arise when you have to authenticate all the bows made by John "Kew" Dodd and his incarnations. It's like what they said of Camille Corot the painter, who reportedly made some 3000 paintings in his life, 5000 of which are on view in museums around the world.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 12:20:40
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to estebanana

Larry Moran, a professor in the Department of Biochemistry at the University of Toronto, has written: "With a little effort, almost everyone of European descent can find the [genealogical] path to Charlemagne."

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 13:24:09
 
FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Behavior is indeed passing through genetically , I'm telling it as a person who learned genetic engineering.

The good news is that its only one of the many things that shape once behavior through life.

Why good? Cause otherwise if a person comes from a line of alfa-males who knew how to charm young women - he's lucky , and if his ancestors were shy people who couldn't talk to girls - well , too bad . . .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 20 2013 14:24:01
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist

quote:

Behavior is indeed passing through genetically , I'm telling it as a person who learned genetic engineering.


I am from the other camp that thinks behavior is primarily based in environment. Genetic pass on traits, genetics only account for behavior in things like breeding racing pigeons.

A buddhist monk told me in the mid 1990's that one of his fellow monks floated the idea that the reason the world is having violence and turmoil is because more and more wildlife habitat is being destroyed and the animals are be reborn as humans. This made sense to me for several years and finally after much thought and reflection I came to conclusion it does not make as much sense as it first appeared.

Mendel was a scam artist. Spaghetti and peas.

______________________________________________________________________________

That all sounds cryptic and it is. It's actually a code to trigger a sleeper cell of assassins on a secret base in the Adriatic Sea. I work for the US Government and guitarmaker in Japan is simply a cover.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 22 2013 22:30:59
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

[quote)

______________________________________________________________________________

That all sounds cryptic and it is. It's actually a code to trigger a sleeper cell of assassins on a secret base in the Adriatic Sea. I work for the US Government and guitarmaker in Japan is simply a cover.


Does that mean you get one of those really big ,uncapped expense
accounts?
If 'yes'....can you build me a guitar and claim the cost back to yourself as a necessary expence for Anglo /American relations....I do realise the cost will be passed onto the American tax payer but as the world markets are all linked and including the fact that 2 of my private pension pots have gone sour due to the collapse of the American real estate market a few years ago ,i hope this is a fair exchange?


Best
pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2013 0:08:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Silly Genealogy (in reply to Richard Jernigan

I'll run it by my bosses at Monsanto. I'm really just a subcontractor, I can't pull any strings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2013 0:35:40
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 9411
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

[Deleted] 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 23 2013 2:05:07
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