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A pianist friend of mine told me a couple of decades ago of an acquaintance
a friend of a friend of an acquaintance ...?? ...!!!.... thats the first problem there ....
its like you treating musicians as if they were not rational people for reasons of developed hearing ..
A teacher at my college was a pianist with a London orchestra and solo recitalist ,classical music teacher and achieved all this at a very young age .. and is still going .. anyway ..he has perfect pitch that was , according to him , developed during his very young choir singing days ...
One day , back stage at a show I challenged him ...Ok so what note is this? ...and i lblew over the top of a bottle of coke i had ..pan pipe style ...
he said , ''its a little bit flat for a G ... ''wait there'' i said cos my guitar is here( and tuner , and a piano as well .... so i check it out with my freinds and .. well yes he was spot on ... a micro tone of , I dont know how much , flat ...
So great ... if i detune my guitar he has no problems .. he can play Beethoven or any classical piece , as is his want , even on an upright pub piano that has had a few years of beer poured into it ... and while he may notice ....and possibly comment on a maintenance issue ... it would not stop him from playing ...
which brings me to ...... “This piano’s flat”. And it was. He couldn't play,.......
but everyone is human ..........more like ...'''this piano is out if tune in places .. but I'll make the best of it ....''''
Its like your supermarket trolley ....although you get one with a wonky wheel and it keeps going to the left ...you know this as you are a normal person ...and you compensate for it ... although annoying , you dont need to call the manager or roadside trolley assistance ....because you are a real person ..........
A pianist friend of mine told me a couple of decades ago of an acquaintance
a friend of a friend of an acquaintance ...?? ...!!!.... thats the first problem there ....
its like you treating musicians as if they were not rational people for reasons of developed hearing ..
A teacher at my college was a pianist with a London orchestra and solo recitalist ,classical music teacher and achieved all this at a very young age .. and is still going .. anyway ..he has perfect pitch that was , according to him , developed during his very young choir singing days ...
One day , back stage at a show I challenged him ...Ok so what note is this? ...and i lblew over the top of a bottle of coke i had ..pan pipe style ...
he said , ''its a little bit flat for a G ... ''wait there'' i said cos my guitar is here( and tuner , and a piano as well .... so i check it out with my freinds and .. well yes he was spot on ... a micro tone of , I dont know how much , flat ...
So great ... if i detune my guitar he has no problems .. he can play Beethoven or any classical piece , as is his want , even on an upright pub piano that has had a few years of beer poured into it ... and while he may notice ....and possibly comment on a maintenance issue ... it would not stop him from playing ...
That is more in line with my experience of people with perfect pitch. Musical accomplishment varies as dramatically amongst people with perfect pitch as those without. Famously the great pianist Slatislav Richter claimed that one day he woke up and suddenly everyhing sounded out of tune. Most people attribute this to depression, sheer bloody mindedness or an excuse to withdraw from public life.
The apocryphal stories about the 'handicap' of perfect pitch are a great comfort to cloth eared pupils. Thus they proliferate.
I assume you are correct, I haven't looked into it though as it seemed so patently bollocxs. Probably based on the fact that Germany was the centre of piano technology and production for the first half of the twentieth century.
very interesting to hear the differences in song examples next to each other like on this website.
I find 432 more melodic, more soft and moldable, like easier food for the ear. Where 440 is harsher and rigid. More like there has been a poppy sounding eq set on the 440 where is the 432 is more dynamic and classical. let's say prettier
very interesting to heart the differences in song examples next to each other like on this website.
I find 432 more melodic, more soft and moldable, like easier food for the ear. Where 440 is harsher and rigid. More like there has been a poppy sounding eq set on the 440 where is the 432 is more dynamic and classical. let's say prettier
never knew
Here are some more examples of how to find exactly what you are looking for independently of scientific rigor.
Its like your supermarket trolley ....although you get one with a wonky wheel and it keeps going to the left ...you know this as you are a normal person ...and you compensate for it ... although annoying , you dont need to call the manager or roadside trolley assistance ....because you are a real person ..........
Thank you, this is music histories best explanation why people with so called 'perfect pitch' who complain about out of tune this and that are imbeciles.
Perfect pitch is a misnomer really, it should be called 'single pitch fixation'. A person with perfect pitch would be able to correct intonation to blend in with any ensemble situation. A person who complains or can't compensate because the reference pitch is not the pitch they hear as "home" for A is inflexible. A singer or instrumentalist who can name a pitch according to its vibration per second value is a remarkable person, but not every person who can do that has the hang up of fixation on one pitch as the correct pitch for A.
When I string up a new guitar that I have just made I pull the A string up to what I think is concert 440. I tune guitar to that pitch. Then I recheck the pitch with a reference from a tuning fork or computer mp3 of A at 440. Usually I'm a few cents flat from A 440 and correct it. It does not blow my mind or bother me that I'm not on A 440, but I hear the difference between A 440 and a few cents flat or sharp and it never stops me from playing the guitar.
I used to share a class where I was the only class member 'without' perfect pitch. (And as it's supposed to be 1 in ten thousand people that seems unlikely but that's how it was.)
At first I just sweated and shat myself as these people actually said the actual notes that were playing. I was very self-conscious and very nervous. Until the teacher (a good un) started on transposition. Suddenly the tables were turned. It was all the same for me in any key but some of these people were like Robbie the Robot trying to figure it out.
It's a strange skill to have and, as far as I can tell, has nothing at all to do with music. In fact, as a poster has said, it often ends up in aggravation as the perfect-pitcher cringes at 'wrong notes'. Eveything sounds out of tune to them; because, strictly speaking, eveything is out of tune. It's all culture and taste. Perfect pitch is a curse for a musician.
And now we know it isn't even 'perfect' we might root it out of the list of attributes that have somehow entered the general consciousness as something that suggests 'musical ability'.
he grew up hearing music that was tuned to 432 Hz.
Not being a smart ass, just curious, what music is this??
Russian music from the 60s/70s, French music, certain Brazilian music... I can't think of anything particular off-hand but I remember we've had discussions about it, and he's pinpointed which music sounds "right" to him and what pieces sound "wrong". I definitely think there's an innate component to this as well; why else would he consider 440 to be so aurally disturbing? Pretty fascinating stuff!
People with perfect pitch, but can't accept relative tuning are usually not so great musicians as the others. I remember reading testimonies of people that could play exact pitches or name them and differntiate...but then play music like crap and out of tune after all. Relatively speaking. If you dont' have good relative pitch you are not gonna be making good music, period.
Ricardo
Haha, I guess my brother bucks the trend. He's pretty much a genius. For example, he's entirely self taught on the piano and organ, and here's the result of a few months of work (not on the piece, but the piano in general!!)... he picked this piece up by ear. :)
He in fact **does** have excellent relative pitch, otherwise he would be unable to tell between 432 and 440. It's just that his innate preference is for the former. BTW he also plays violin, flute, soprano saxophone, tenor saxophone, melodica, guzheng, etc, and is self-taught on all except violin and flute...
Haha, I guess my brother bucks the trend. He's pretty much a genius. For example, he's entirely self taught on the piano and organ, and here's the result of a few months of work (not on the piece, but the piano in general!!)... he picked this piece up by ear. :)
He in fact **does** have excellent relative pitch, otherwise he would be unable to tell between 432 and 440. It's just that his innate preference is for the former. BTW he also plays violin, flute, soprano saxophone, tenor saxophone, melodica, guzheng, etc, and is self-taught on all except violin and flute...
I like this piece. Nice story. I play tons of instruments too
Wow, ridiculous IMO. WHen I was a kid, I had this variable speed tape player and always was fascinated by music heard at different speeds and different pitches. There is no magic in 432 sorry. Not any more than if they drop the pitch even lower. Or simply higher pitch. In fact what they think is "better" about it, IMO, the effect is increased if you go higher or lower. LIke jewel said in "Hands"..."in the end, only kindness matters..." no matter what pitch she says it at its beautiful.
As far as I can see, they prove nothing of the kind; merely that the ability can be sabotaged by the appropriate procedure.
If a sommelier can't differentiate two kinds of wine after eating an habanero chile, it doesn’t mean he couldn’t do it beforehand
If a sommelier (whatever that is) could reliably nail the chemical compounds within any given wine 'perfectly' or with 'absolute' precision then you might have a (starting) point. This is about recognizing frequencies in the same way that a computer, with the right programming, could recognize pitches... whether we play it naff ones to confuse it or not.
What you describe as sabotage is simple proof that what we considered (or indeed still consider, if we ascribe to the sabotage theory) perfect is, in fact, the ability to 'know' that a given note is associated with a given label to within 33 cents.
33 cents is a lot. Not something you would bet your life on, is it?
But you raise an interesting question. If we do not want to test whether it is 'perfect' pitch by performing the experiment (sabotage) then we could still find out exactly how accurate this 'skill' is by firing frequencies at them. How accurate is it without the carefully-crafted test (sabotage)?
But if we can change a pitch, over time (and only minutes at that), and 'fool' perfect pitchers then perfect pitchers they ain't.
I expect the term perfect or absolute pitch to remain in place because, to all intents and purposes, it seems 'perfect'.
But, for example, were I to send a suitably perfect-pitched agent into enemy lines to get the secret code (which exists in tones) then it would be easy for the enemy to 'sabotage' the agent. (That would qualify as 'sabotage'. The link I posted qualifies as science. But both would be a valid 'test' of whether perfect pitch exists or not... and apparently (unless the experimenters have lied) it does not.)
Perfect means perfect. Absolute is a term I suspect we all understand.
It shouldn't matter a jot whether you believe this 'sabotage' was unfair in judging perfection to be flawed.
None of this matters, not least for many of the reasons here cited by many but it would (now) be interesting to see if anyone follows up to see if they can further tighten and define this strange ability.
Separating these perceptions from actual kids who may get pushed hard into music by people who have tested them and are convinced of the latent musical ability that accompanies such 'perfection' (give or take 33 cents) would be a good thing.
All the strings are optimized for 440...I don't hear any difference as long as the relative tuning is correct. I probably play somewhere between 432 and 448 when I tune by ear. I really don't care about the tuning frequency...
I understand it didn't used to be A440 as a standard, I also understand that the Nazi party was pushing to standardized A440 before it became standard, from what I remember reading they had nothing to do with the ultimate decision which came years later......
This A=440 due to Nazis idea has come up several times; it turns out to be false. As I was looking for historical papers for another thread, I accidentally came across information which definitively debunks it:
The first time A=440 was proposed and accepted as a standard was in 1834, at a conference of physicists in Stuttgart. The proposal was by Johann Scheibler, "a silk manufacturer from Crefeld, Prussia, [..] who went on to make contributions to the science of acoustics as a self taught musicologist". He also had devised a very accurate 'tonometer' with which to reliably measure pitches.
Scheibler's value of A=440, "The Stuttgart pitch", was the mean of the measurements of grand pianofortes in Vienna.
For various reasons (later rival standards adopted by different countries, e.g. the French 'normale' of A=435 adopted in 1859 which in reality turns out to have been A=439; etc.), this did not fully take internationally until 1939.
In 1938 the Brits called for an international conference to debate and adopt a world-wide uniform standard. For that purpose they convened said international conference in 1939.
On May 11-12, 1939, that conference was held at the BBC in London, chaired by the British Standards Institution under the auspices of the International Standards Association, with in-person attendance by France, Germany, Great Britain, Holland and Italy, and stated views by Switzerland and the United States of America. In addition, some independent international associations attended or sent their proposals.
The initial views were as follows:
After a "friendly and vigorous discussion followed, during which it was happily found possible to establish eventual agreement on the main points at issue", the value of A=440 Hz was adopted.
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