string spacing at saddle

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tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

string spacing at saddle

One of my guitars has a 59.5mm string spacing at the saddle and another one has 56mm spacing, the first one feels more comfortable... Is it possible to plug and re-drill the holes in the bridge? I am just thinking that considering how little they have to be moved it is going to be difficult to keep the filled holes from breaking apart if they are filled with wood. Any other filling materials? Or other ideas for this modification?
I have also read about cutting slots for the strings into the saddle bone. Is it a good idea and would it be easy to fix it 3mm wider? I suppose slots half the size of the strings would be good like in the nut(or less?).

THANKS!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 11:56:33

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

Replacing the bridge is a possibility. Maybe compromise at 58mm, because you have to remember, that you will move the E-strings closer to the edge of the fingerboard; not much, but it could be a problem. Difficult to say without seeing it.

Easier alternative is to sell the guitar.

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Kevin Richards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 15:36:23

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to krichards)

Replacing the bridge or selling the guitar is something I would rather not do. It seems like notches in the saddle or making new holes are the only way to go, any thoughts on how it's best to do the new holes if the notches won't do the trick?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 16:51:11

orsonw

Posts: 1940
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

I bought a guitar that had been previously converted to 12 holes by an amateur, resulting in uneven spacing. This had been remedied by using a saddle with notches to space the strings correctly and worked fine.

However because the holes were too close to the bone inlay, overtime the holes wore and the bone started to cut and break strings.

On his suggestion, I had a luthier remove and replace just the tie block section of the bridge (he even replaced the original tieblock inlay). The guitar sounds and responds much better now and of course the spacing is perfect and to my preference.

The luthier was Pablo Requena based in the UK. (http://spanishguitar.org.uk/)

He did an amazing job, his wood working skills are very,very good.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 17:26:38

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

quote:

Is it possible to plug and re-drill the holes in the bridge?

It is possible and not too difficult if you know what you are doing. You need to make 6 little round toothpick-like plugs from palo santo or whatever the bridge is made from. When they can be pushed into the holes with no play, coat them with glue and tap them in with a mallet. When the glue is dry, cut off the excess with a wood chisel. Now you can redrill whereever you want, though you will need the same drill extension as you would use to convert a bridge to 12 holes (another possibility?)

If this sounds difficult, take the guitar to someone who knows. And do not notch the bone: it causes more problems than it cures.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 18:51:33

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

Filling and re-drilling the holes really isn't much of problem. If you can get a drill guide its even easier! Replacing the tie block is also another good idea.

P.R.S is also a brilliant teacher!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 19:13:24

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante
It is possible and not too difficult if you know what you are doing. You need to make 6 little round toothpick-like plugs from palo santo or whatever the bridge is made from. When they can be pushed into the holes with no play, coat them with glue and tap them in with a mallet. When the glue is dry, cut off the excess with a wood chisel. Now you can redrill whereever you want, though you will need the same drill extension as you would use to convert a bridge to 12 holes (another possibility?)

If this sounds difficult, take the guitar to someone who knows. And do not notch the bone: it causes more problems than it cures.

I am aware of the procedure and I have filled two worn holes with success. However I am worried it might be quite easy to drill in the wrong spot or if in correct spot, that the part of the filling material might not be well holding it's place or chip off.

I like the idea of replacing the tie block though. .

Here are pics of the bridge I have. Is it possible to change it(tie block) and what is the best method to remove the original one?
http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l533/biciman101/DSC07448_zps577a9ba4.jpg
http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l533/biciman101/DSC07447_zpsd4ea7eb1.jpg
http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l533/biciman101/DSC07446_zps98f3f4c7.jpg

The second pic shows that the holes are pretty much on the bottom of the rosewood, I wonder if they are too low for me to be able to create a flat surface for glueing a new block.

The technique I can think of is sawing under the bone inlay and sanding down the rest of the wood but will it work for achieving a flat surface for new block? Better methods?

also, what would be the best way to separate the original bone "inlay" from the wood?

thanks. PS. I am going offline for couple of days so I wont be able to post by tomorrow

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 19:45:35

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Replacing the bridge or selling the guitar is something I would rather not do. It seems like notches in the saddle or making new holes are the only way to go, any thoughts on how it's best to do the new holes if the notches won't do the trick?

For making slots, I have this thread (with pictures) from a guitar forum dealing with the steel string side of things which I bookmarked as I plan to mod my acoustic guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 20:16:03

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

What's the fingerboard width at the 12th fret? Your probably ok.
Mine are 62.5 - 63mm at the 12th with a 59mm bridge spacing.
I always add a little space for the trebles at the nut also.

Conde bridges are minimalistic, and re-drilling those holes is not gonna be easy, or as accurate as making a new bridge. Drilling a twelve hole with the bridge still on is easy, but then again the holes don't have to be accurate. Drilling new holes at the slightest angle will give you a different exit hole, and its the exit hole that determines the string spacing.
There is nothing worse then playing a guitar with uneven string spacings

Sell it, or get a new bridge put on it would be my advice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 20:55:04

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Sean)

There is enough space in the fingerboard, at least seems to be, it's 60mm at 12th fret and if I move the strings 3mm(so 1.5mm on top and bottom) it still seems to have enough fret space for vibrato on the E strings.
Currently I would like to get some info on the possibility of replacing the tie block as it seems the best way to go. Selling is out of the question for now, so is completely changing the bridge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 21:29:07

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Sell it, or get a new bridge put on it would be my advice.

I agree with Sean.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2013 22:46:18

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

I would not try to plug and redrill in situ. the small drill bit would wander into the plugged hole.
Nor am I keen on the replaced tieblock idea , the holes are too low you would ruin the bridge.
Slotted saddle or live with it or some sort of guide pin between the tie block and saddle.
Or replace the bridge, and improve the break angle with lower holes at the same time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 2:14:11

estebanana

Posts: 9365
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

This is funny everyone has an opinion...I like option #2 - plane off the tie block and redrill the holes. After checking the string spacing against the edge of the fingerboard to see it f will work.

Option 5- Raise saddle to 1/2" raise nut to 3/8". Slot saddle @ 59.5mm, pull out frets adn play as a a 'lap nylon' guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 4:18:35

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to estebanana)

Managed to get online early...

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

This is funny everyone has an opinion...I like option #2 - plane off the tie block and redrill the holes.

Do you have opinion on what is the best method to do so? I have also been worrying that if the tie block isnt properly flat before glueing in a new one the glue between the new block might not hold it in place properly and results would be whopping.

I have checked the fretboard and there is luckily enough space as the strings move only about 0.7mm at the 12th fret.

I dont know how can I plane it off evenly all the way through the old holes...

thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 15:18:11

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

quote:

I have checked the fretboard and there is luckily enough space as the strings move only about 0.7mm at the 12th fret.

I think you're being to optimistic about this. There's no way you'll only move a string by 0,7mm, especially in flamenco.

My guitar as 58,5 spacing at the saddle and 62mm wide at the 12th fret, being that the useful measure is in fact 60mm (dont forget that the frets have round ends). The string spacing c to c at the nut is 44mm and I have to be careful with the high e string (or slide the nut up a bit).

Just make sure that you arent already at the limit of acceptable saddle string spacing.

You could try a wider spaced nut, maybe that will help the overall feel of the guitar. It did for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 16:08:27

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

quote:

I have checked the fretboard and there is luckily enough space as the strings move only about 0.7mm at the 12th fret.

I think you're being to optimistic about this. There's no way you'll only move a string by 0,7mm, especially in flamenco.

If I choose to add 3mm to saddle spacing it means 1,5mm on both sides, that means 0,75mm of movement at middle point of the string, 12th fret. It seems to have enough space considering 62mm at 12th fret for 59mm saddle spacing seems to be around standard. Mine is 60mm so it will be 1mm less on both sides.
I am just worried if I or the luthier can pull off the tie block replacement properly. I would appreciate alot some advice on this... Thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 16:31:40

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

The greatest tie block modification I did was cutting off half of it. It changed the sound a lot, the bass has been tamed and the midrange has come forward.

I had a guitar that had two misplaced string holes and one thing you can alter in the tie block is the place where the strings are coming out. Maybe you could open the holes a bit more at the saddle side and then fill with wood and glue the part that needs to be filled. Ive done that with match sticks and it works, although I didnt glue them because I didnt want it to be permanent... and then I got another guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 16:43:54

orsonw

Posts: 1940
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

quote:

I am just worried if I or the luthier can pull off the tie block replacement properly. I would appreciate alot some advice on this

I don't think there are any quick, absolute answers. It takes experience, dedication, art, intuition and talent for luthiers to understand and know how to treat a particular piece of wood to make or repair a guitar.

I made a thread to show how a skilled luthier, Pablo Requena, solved one tie block problem. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=236023&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#236023

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 17:46:03

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

I am just worried if I or the luthier can pull off the tie block replacement properly. I would appreciate alot some advice on this

I don't think there are any quick, absolute answers. It takes experience, dedication, art, intuition and talent for luthiers to understand and know how to treat a particular piece of wood to make or repair a guitar.

I made a thread to show how a skilled luthier, Pablo Requena, solved one tie block problem. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=236023&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#236023

thats just what I needed, thanks alot. It seems like the maestro removed material almost until there was only about 0.5mm left of the original tie block.
I think this is very much doable with a proper router use!
One more question about the glue used, do you think he used hide glue or titebond for the new block and does the bone inlay require special glue?

thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2013 19:01:30

estebanana

Posts: 9365
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

quote:

thats just what I needed, thanks alot. It seems like the maestro removed material almost until there was only about 0.5mm left of the original tie block.
I think this is very much doable with a proper router use!
One more question about the glue used, do you think he used hide glue or titebond for the new block and does the bone inlay require special glue?

After removing the tie block inlay I would prepare for the wood graft with a hand plane and a file and scraper, but to each their own tools.

Hide glue should do everything, although CA glue does really like rosewood. I would glue the bone to the graft first, then glue it as an assembly to the guitar.

If you are not sure about the glue to tests. Glue a similar size test pieces with hide glue and CA and try to split them apart and see how you feel about the joint.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2013 2:32:00

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks I will try to post pictures when the job is done. I believe its doable and changing the whole bridge just seems unnecessary with careful and proper tool use.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2013 5:59:07

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

I made a thread to show how a skilled luthier, Pablo Requena, solved one tie block problem. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=236023&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#236023

That was an example of a master´s precision work. Bordering on magic.
From what was to be seen on the pictures I couldn´t tell the patching.

Peoples fine motorics are so different. Some can hardly inlay a rosette without fray out or assemble without gaps, others can do what master Requena did with the tie block and you can´t even tell the two different woods apart afterwards.

Ruphus

PS:
In the seventies my brother had shopped wooden sculptures during a trip in Africa and brought them to Germany.
One of the figures showed a love couple of ebony wood. The figure was over a meter high and the guy´s neck had broken during transport.

I was with my brother when we went to pick the "repaired" figure from a German master joiner ( and you know how thorough German education is, let alone for a master title ).
Think I have never seen my brother getting that rude anywhere.
The joiner had replaced a chunk of ebony with some cherry wood or so and hadn´t even been able to adapt the shape of the piece to the neck. With glue traces and what not.
Incredibly clumsy mess of awkward hands.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2013 9:02:55

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

Probably one of the key methods on the other thread was

"He had a metal jig machined with holes spaced to my specification and then a long drill bit to drill the 12 holes with the bridge on the guitar.

I can see why the other tie block was replaced, it looked to have been thoroughly butchered with lots of plugged holes already.

A metal template like this would probably allow you to just plug and redrill accurately.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2013 20:18:30

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Jeff Highland)

I have the same Jig as Pablo. The jig it's self is set to 11.5mm string spacing but if you want a different spacing simply move the jig and just use one whole. Pablo would have used a 0.5mm vaneer and slid the jig 5mm to one side to get the jig in position for the 12hole bit.

The only down side to these jigs is the centre of the wholes are always 3.5mm from the top of the tie block. So if you need the holes lower you will have to find another way or get a new jig made.

I think Pablo would have probably used Titebond too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2013 11:08:45

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I have the same Jig as Pablo. The jig it's self is set to 11.5mm string spacing but if you want a different spacing simply move the jig and just use one whole. Pablo would have used a 0.5mm vaneer and slid the jig 5mm to one side to get the jig in position for the 12hole bit.

Stephen,
I'd like to see this jig, would you post a picture?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2013 14:22:07

estebanana

Posts: 9365
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

Do you use the jig for your regular new bridge hole drilling or just for lining up a re-drill of a worn tie block?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2013 14:41:29

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to tele)

I shall post a pic on Monday John. It really is very simple though, it's an L shape one part sits over the tie block the other has the holes.

Stephen -I use it on all my bridges. It saves all marking out I slap the jig on and head to drill press.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2013 8:59:00

orsonw

Posts: 1940
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

I have the same Jig as Pablo. The jig it's self is set to 11.5mm string spacing but if you want a different spacing simply move the jig and just use one whole. Pablo would have used a 0.5mm vaneer and slid the jig 5mm to one side to get the jig in position for the 12hole bit.

Pablo had a jig specially made for my spacing of 59.5mm. The one he already had was 57mm.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2013 10:54:23

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

... my spacing of 59.5mm.

Good for you that you found out your size.

Trying to estimate fitting proportions for me and measuring several of my guitars it showed that very small increments make a big difference.
It turned out that even the gap between a flamenca and a parlor was actually only a mere 4 mm ( 58 and 54 mm).

From there not surprising that half a mm will matter already to individual specs.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2013 12:58:22

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: string spacing at saddle (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I shall post a pic on Monday John. It really is very simple though, it's an L shape one part sits over the tie block the other has the holes.

I get it. No need for a picture. It wouldn't work on our bridges since our tie block angles from back to front.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2013 14:12:48