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RE: how fast do skills deteriorate when one ceases to practice?   You are logged in as Guest
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jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I don't like this talk of inspiration. We have to work. Rest makes rust.


Today I didn't feel like playing so I only practiced one hour. It felt like I was cheating.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2013 22:32:04
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I don't like this talk of inspiration. We have to work. Rest makes rust.


No. Rest and relaxation are essential both to recuperation and to learning. A lot of research has been done on this in the last 30 years or so.

I can give you some references if you want.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2013 23:30:20
 
estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Jurriaan

So the conclusion is:

Drink frozen drinks with prostitutes, and like Hemingway or Paco de Lucia, make sure you don't over compose. If you do compose while lacking inspiration, a good dose of heroin could put you back on track, but take enough with you to last the whole backpacking trip. Don't eat any lard on the Lord's day, which ever Lord is your Lord unless your Lord is the Lord of Lard. Picado can be greased into a lighting strike if lard is applied to the thumb rather than Vaseline, but vacillating at length on salon sculpted nails is bad for your fretting hand.


Big game fishing can be beneficial for the building of a strong back and good sitting posture, but have your fighting chair tuned up by a certified luthier before leaving port. Always do as Andrew Lloyd Webber, catch and release large sharks, never drink before noon. Remember only Commander Klink from Stalag 13 uses a Royal Coachman dry fly when a wet nymph would be more suitable in a chalk stream presentation situation. However, consultation of Lloyd Bridges' " Manual of Sabicas Style and Rules for Sea Hunt Scale playing" should only be whilst riding atop a carosel horse playing your number four iron Reyes guitar.

And since we have touched on golf, Jack Nicolas used to say: "I always have the deck hand pullout my Gerundino putter on the 18th fret, but make sure you use a full grown Atlantic Sailfish with an extra long bill for bait when you want to catch a bowl of guacamole and chips."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 4:04:21
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 8:08:37
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Jurriaan

quote:

I'm a medium skilled player and practice for an hour every day including drilling of basic technique. In two weeks time I'm going backpacking for about a month with probably no opportunity to play...


If you're a "medium skilled player" and practice an hour daily, then presumably you've been practicing daily for some years. If that's right, then I wouldn't expect you'd "lose" the technique you've acquired after a one-month hiatus. You'll be able to get it back.

I would however urge caution once you return and begin to resume practicing. Ease back into it so as to avoid injury. Frequent but short practice sessions might be the way to go, at least during the first week or two back into playing.

Good luck and have a great trip!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 10:19:42
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Hey Mark you read my mind.


it's the lard. confers psychic powers as well as immortality...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 10:53:14
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

i think Julian Lloyd Webber said "if I miss a day's practice I notice, if I miss two days practice the critics notice, if I miss three day's practice the audience notice."


quote:

I believe that’s Paderewski. At least, that seems to be the consensus; but the number of people credited with it appears to run into double figures.


I read an interview with JLW where he said it, but I can't remember if he just said it of himself without referencing the source of the quote (if it's true for you it's true regardless of who said it first) or if he prefaced it with "as Paderewski said...." or something like that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 11:02:38
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Guest

quote:

I could swear I read an interview with Paco where he stated he doesn't practice anymore.

I guess he just plays everyday.


maybe we need a searchable database of Paco interviews and quotes....

I remember one interview where he says he doesn't have to worry about/practice technique anymore, but also one where he said something like when he composes he doesn't wait for inspiration to strike or he'd never get anything done, instead he goes to work, and that creates the conditions for inspiration to come.

I probably have the interviews, some day when I have nothing better to do I might haul them out and check.... but don't wait up!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 11:06:29
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I don't like this talk of inspiration. We have to work. Rest makes rust. If I miss a day or two, it's no big deal, but it adds up over weeks and months. The months I am playing a lot, I am a lot better than if it's been busy and I've been missing a lot of time. Of course, you don't want to pick it up like it's a shovel or something. If you have to talk about inspiration, talk about how to find that inspiration, not as an excuse for not putting in the necessary time on the instrument. Most of us need a lot of consistent time to play at any kind of level.


Don't you think there is a difference between studying "to please your teacher or the clock" or studying "because you love the learning process and feel hugely inspired to get the very best out of yourself and your instrument on a daily base"? In my opinion "blood, sweat and tears" and "inspiration" are opposite sites of the same medal, like Yin and Yang. I've done my hours of study and i noticed that studying without the inner wish to benefit from it does not work for me at all.

When i entered University school of music i had to do a lot of exercises, very good exercises that really offered me a chance to develop myself as a player. But despite our weekly group trainings and several hours of study a day at home i only developed very slowly. Sure, in the beginning it helped me to become better and better, but once i reached a new roof of my abilities those daily struggles would only maintain that level without spectacular improving it. The problem was my fingers moved, but i was not in the right state of mind to benefit from those exercises the best possible way. So i stopped serious studying and began to spent most on my time behind the chessboard.

Unfortunately we had to do exams every year to pass and i had to equal fallow students who indeed did the expected 4-8 hours of study a day. My talent helped me to survive the first 3 years with 1-2 hours of "study" a week, but at the end of year 3 i was in serious danger of being expelled from the institute, so i decided to interrupt my 12 hours a day chess studies for some serious guitar training. I managed to sneak in 4 hours of study a day, without getting any result. The problem was that (once again) my fingers moved, but i was not in the right state of mind to benefit from those exercises the best possible way (i only did it to please my teacher and the clock).

4 weeks before the exam i experienced something i never experienced before...i began to love the art of studying. I totally changed my approach of study, hardly played pieces or music at all but in stead concentrated on getting to know every cell in my body and every cell of my guitar. Half of the time was spend in meditation (to get a clear and open min) on studying extremely small moves and on visualizing them "in my mind only" as soon as i understand them. I paired incredible focus to incredible passion... this time i didn't study to please my teacher or the clock but to please myself and to get the very best out myself.

At first i was able to keep that incredible focus for only a couple of minutes in a row... 5 minutes became 10, 10 became 20 and so on. The amount of focus and energy exchange was so extreme that after 1 hour of training i was totally exhausted and needed 8-12 hours of sleep to recover. The first week i did only 1 hour of full focus training a day, the second week i did 2 hours a day and the 3th week i did 3 hours a day......i went to hell and back but at the end of week 3 i had reached more then other students had accomplished in 3 years of uninterrupted study ("studying" 4-8 hours a day). The fallowing years i repeated this approach with similar results. Every time i had to face my "40 hour power study" my main worry was not "will it work again" but "can i re-find the incredible motivation that is needed to face that hell again"... i like to believe motivation and inspiration are one and the same in this situation.

The last time i had the inspiration to face that hell again was 20 years ago. I haven't studied ever since. I have had numerous moments that i hardly played at all for weeks/mounts, picked up my guitar again and (after a couple of minutes) played better as ever... because i was inspired. It's true that studying a piece every day for weeks raises/maintains my level, but only the bottom level (which happens to be your basic level of playing). But to challence the top of your level (and go far beyond) you need inspiration. Without inspiration you can't play music and you can't raise your level dramatically (no matter how much you study).

I stopped visiting Paco de Lucia shortly after Camaron died, simply because he did not touched my heart and soul anymore. The notes and technique were still there but his playing lacked inspiration. His concerts only made me feel sad that such a great spirit was lost. At the time nobody could understand my sudden aversion, but many years later Paco himself revealed in an interview that the past years had been a personal struggle because he lacked inspiration.

During a life concert of Astor Piazzolla i once suffered an emotional shock because it was just to much for a human being to cope with... i could't breath for minutes and actually could have died (not the worst way to die, an overdose of beauty). When the matching record "zero hours" was released it was again way better then anything i had ever heart before. I gave the record to a dear friend (one of my musical heros) who replied "he's 1 level further again".... 1 level further AFTER a lifetime of playing music on what seems "the highest level". Astor himself stated "this is the absolutely the greatest record i've made in my entire life. We gave our souls to this record".

But i must admit it paired inspiration to extremely hard work.... in the studio some parts were played/recorded numerous times before the Meastro gave it his blessing. So, to shine we need both (years of) study/discipline AND inspiration.... but i consider the last as the most important ingredient because it also makes you want to improve/study.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 11:32:03
 
Jurriaan

 

Posts: 48
Joined: Dec. 14 2011
From: Netherlands

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to jshelton5040

Wow, this is a pretty active forum (I'm quite new here). Thank you all for your replies. It seems that I don't have to worry that much about losing skills as long as I pick up the practice with shorter good quality sessions that I should gradually increase. The discussion now seems to have shifted to how one should study/practice in general, which was very helpful to me too. I take internet lessons from Adam del Monte and he also stresses that it is better to start (very) slow and focused to prevent you from developing sloppy technique. That is a challenge to me as a lot of flamenco techniques only start to sound great when you play at a high pace. I also want to thank Stephen Faulk for his excellent summary of what was discussed earlier. As a matter of fact, my Lord is the Lord of Lard (may his holy Lardyness protect us all from playing out of compas), which poses a big problem to me as I'm vegetarian which prevents me from eating lard. Not many people know this, but I think the bad weather all the time in the Netherlands might be His punishment for my disobedience.

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Playing music is not difficult - you just have to play the right note at the right time (J.S. Bach)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 16:23:14
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Jurriaan

Does anyone else find that the first thing to go is tremolo?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 17:55:19
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

For me, picado.

However, I recently lost my tremolo and am trying to get it back. I basically re-did my whole right hand over the last year or so. I got better security, tone, control, everything, but lost that tremolo motion. I used to be able to wake up and play tremolo (although it was a little sloppy).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 18:46:55
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Does anyone else find that the first thing to go is tremolo?


quote:

For me, picado.


for me it's left/right hand co-ordination. As long as I start off slow-ish, and don't push it I find things come back ok.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2013 18:58:33
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

Does anyone else find that the first thing to go is tremolo?


In my "40 hour power training" period each hour began with meditation (to clear the mind and to surge for inspiration) fallowed by a series of self developed and pretty unique exercises to connect with the left hand fingers (not involving the right hand yet) The right hand exercises would start with connecting with those fingers as well (placed on string without totally plugging the strings). The first real plugging would indeed involve a series of tremolo exercises who (when done extremely slow, relaxed and focused) can work like a kind of mantra. If you do it on a daily base over a couple of weeks these mantras can even trigger the mind to get in a higher state of awareness.

So for me tremolo is indeed the best way to start the daily "plugging exercises". But as far as teaching my students is concerned pulgar was the first thing to work on.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2013 0:21:15
 
estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to jshelton5040

If you have room to tie a 16" X 2.5" x 1" stick to your back pack I can show you how to make a travel practice guitar in 10 minutes.

BTW, I was practicing my automatic writing skills. I find my surreal instincts get dulled by thinking about guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2013 0:46:58
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Does anyone else find that the first thing to go is tremolo?


In terms of speed, accuracy, or both?

I'm inclined to say yes with regard to your original question. But, then again, I haven't devoted as much effort to cultivating my tremolo as I have to picado, rasqueado, etc.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2013 10:23:33
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to Jurriaan

I suppose that one should also consider how solidly one's foundation is -also specifically to a certain exercise. If one is struggling with picado or tremolo, a break may un-pin the loosely acquired skill.

I find that after "forced" breaks [business and family trips] my skills [if any] will have improved. I find that to be true for all I do. Yet, it is all relative, of course, and I am afraid longer breaks -such as a six month sentence- may cause that deterioration addressed in this thread.

A different answer, yet, may apply to performing a certain piece. The issue then is one of "memory" and "automatisms". And that is also an interesting problem. There are only a few pieces in our repertory that we can play in our sleep -as we have played them repeatedly, many times. The rest will require some practice to come back and some polishing to sound as it once did.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2013 15:38:02
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: how fast do skills deteriorate w... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

maybe we need a searchable database of Paco interviews and quotes....

I remember one interview where he says he doesn't have to worry about/practice technique anymore, but also one where he said something like when he composes he doesn't wait for inspiration to strike or he'd never get anything done, instead he goes to work, and that creates the conditions for inspiration to come.


That pretty much sums it up.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2013 17:48:01
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