Question to the luthiers about saddle

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Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

Question to the luthiers about saddle

Question to the luthiers about saddle (maybe a stupid one):

Is it right that for each guitar which you have finished building, you have to make the saddle slightly different (some sanded more than others) to get the same action (let say around 3mm 6th string at 12th fret)? And that on some guitars it can even happen that there is almost no more bone left to be sanded and lower the action even more if required later by the player? (which would mean that you have to accept let say your standard 3mm as maximum, since there is almost no bone left to be sanded to lower even more). Or can you build all your guitars so precise (considering the differences in woods, neck, etc.) that you always have the same action with the same saddle shape?

Hope you understand what i mean.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2013 20:38:50

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

Yes. you are right it is not an easy thing to achieve.
As well as things like variations in soundboard and neck flexibility, movement with humidity changes, you have design variations like fretboard thickness and fret height, amount of doming at the bridge, neck angle etc
A 0.5mm variation in 12th fret action implies a 1mm change at the saddle.
And then you have the requirement for a flamenco of low string height at the bridge so you can't just set it really high to give yourself lots of margin

So yes you do need to individually shape each bone saddle to achieve standard action and hopefully that will leave enough margin for players preferring really low action and for changes with age.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2013 21:34:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

You are right that no two guitars are exactly alike but close enough to be able to manage the different bridge saddles very near the same.

Also, I have bridges for sale that you can convert to almost any style. Right now they are a nearly perfect style, similar to the Reyes but can be altered slightly to make other styles.

You can almost lay the string height on the top, if you care to, or keep them at about 7 to 9 mm high. The bridge style is extremely versatile, and can be altered with very little work, as far as adjusting the bridge style......

But this is a major adjustment to take off the old bridge and install the new.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2013 21:48:35

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

Thank you.
The reason i asked is just recently i saw 3 different new guitars (exactly the same model) and all of the saddle shapes were totally different (but all had the same action). And one of the saddles was almost sanded down to max. possible (almost no more saddle "looking" above bridge anymore") whereas one of them had a lot of extra bone left. Maybe 4 mm on the bass side, don't know exactly, just guessing, but it was A LOT more. And one was "medium"

So could you say that there is also a little bit of "luck" involved in this final stage of setup., etc. and no one can really calculate all the factors (which you also mentioned) to a degree which would avoid these differences, even if the guitars are built with the highest possible attention to detail and material, etc.?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2013 21:49:41

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

You don't say which guitar factory built the guitar but most factories have precision jigs and measurements to get it right if they are using their facility to build all guitars with the same action.

But then we have other elements involved with the top structure, pulsation, etc that could cause a difference in how the action has to be set.

The idea is to order a guitar from a factory that has its action and pulsation correct to begin with and an added support strip, either through the neck or possibly a carbon strip inside the neck that will guard against its potential to warp.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2013 23:28:05

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

arash, would these guitars be yamaha? i have read some posts about the set up and the posts imply some variance in saddle height showing above the slot to lower the action.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2013 10:56:01

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

So could you say that there is also a little bit of "luck" involved in this final stage of setup., etc. and no one can really calculate all the factors (which you also mentioned) to a degree which would avoid these differences, even if the guitars are built with the highest possible attention to detail and material, etc.?

There's no luck involved if the guitar is truly hand made. There is slight variation in the deflection of the neck that is pretty much unavoidable but this is easily corrected by tapering the fingerboard in one direction or the other to achieve a very uniform action. We have no trouble keeping the action at 2.8mm at the 12th and leaving enough saddle to lower it further.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2013 13:26:04

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

I agree with John. If the guitar is handmade then its really easy to to keep a consistent saddle height with the same action. I have just finished 7 classical guitars the size and shape of the all if the saddles are all the same within about 0.25mm. If the finger boards are planed correctly then there should never be any problem.

Factory guitars are a whole othe ball game. I've seen guitars come over from a chinese factory where the saddle heights vary just as much as the action. I used to do setup work or a guitar importer, I took about 20 guitars in once to sort out the action most of them were just about acceptable and a few we just used as fire wood they were that bad.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2013 15:25:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14823
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

So could you say that there is also a little bit of "luck" involved in this final stage of setup., etc. and no one can really calculate all the factors (which you also mentioned) to a degree which would avoid these differences, even if the guitars are built with the highest possible attention to detail and material, etc.?

There's no luck involved if the guitar is truly hand made. There is slight variation in the deflection of the neck that is pretty much unavoidable but this is easily corrected by tapering the fingerboard in one direction or the other to achieve a very uniform action. We have no trouble keeping the action at 2.8mm at the 12th and leaving enough saddle to lower it further.

The general issue for flamenco players, serious ones, is we prefer the low bridge, but can accept different actions of the fingerboard based on taste. Obviously some guitars end up being too low over the fingerboard and we are reluctant to raise at the bridge. And vice versa, many many many guitars were once hoped to be "perfect" with super duper low bridge, not not quite easy enough on the left hand for all players. Tom refers to Reyes as "perfect" but I felt in most cases the saddles where high and action too soft, Conde the opposite problem, some saddles too low and a bit hard on the left hand.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2013 16:37:00

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Tom refers to Reyes as "perfect" but I felt in most cases the saddles where high and action too soft, Conde the opposite problem, some saddles too low and a bit hard on the left hand.

The new bridges I have in stock are perfect for alteration, up or down, and as far as the Reyes style tension, this can be tweaked harder or softer. I have found that if you have a guitar that is harder in its top tension to begin with, it gets harder with age, and this can sometimes translate into left hand difficulties.

Building a stiff right hand with left hand ease for ligado is not easy but it can be done.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2013 17:01:31

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

Also, I have bridges for sale that you can convert to almost any style. Right now they are a nearly perfect style, similar to the Reyes but can be altered slightly to make other styles.

You can almost lay the string height on the top, if you care to, or keep them at about 7 to 9 mm high. The bridge style is extremely versatile, and can be altered with very little work, as far as adjusting the bridge style......

I cant see anything particularly different with the bridges on your site which would allow greater variation in string height, especially lowering.
The height of the drilled holes seems to be 4mm or so above the base.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2013 22:13:44

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Ricardo)

as i understand flamenco bridges the strings should be lower to the top than a classical guitar with one reason being it is easier to do golpes. i wonder though if the lower height of the bridge was/is a function of previous generations being generally shorter than people of today (taller people=longer fingers). additionally, looking at photos of older generation flamencos they seem to be on the shorter side. as someone in the upper percentile in height (6'2" with fingers to match) the need for a lower strings to allow me access to the top is minimal and if anything maybe too low. so, the question is: are there other advantages of having a lower bridge? of course, the question posed assumes a neck angle relative to the bridge height.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2013 22:47:06

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to keith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

as i understand flamenco bridges the strings should be lower to the top than a so, the question is: are there other advantages of having a lower bridge? of course, the question posed assumes a neck angle relative to the bridge height.

Keith, I'm 6'2" as well and have large hands and long fingers. I played flamenco guitar for about 45 years before arthritis ended it. I think that if the action is not low on the right hand the string tends to have a limber feel that interferes with the fast picado and alza pua.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 0:48:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland
I cant see anything particularly different with the bridges on your site which would allow greater variation in string height, especially lowering.
The height of the drilled holes seems to be 4mm or so above the base.

The point here is that the holes are very close to the bottom of the bridge and it can be lowered quite a bit down, if necessary.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 3:20:17

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

It's not normal for a hand builder to have that much variation in the setup. There is some variability, maybe + or - .5 or 1mm in string height at the bridge from guitar to guitar with a given action.
It's pretty standard with a lot of factory guitars though. Most commonly action too high and no room to lower it.

String height at the bridge does affect torque on the top, which affects how you brace the top with regards to stiffness, which affects the sound.
It's pretty small differences but flamenco tops generally need to be a little thinner than classical tops, which goes into the flamenco sound.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 3:34:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

The height of the drilled holes seems to be 4mm or so above the base.

I measured the holes from the bottom of the bridge and they are 2 mm from the bottom with a carved out trough between the tie block and saddle. Everything is done by CNC or router set up, so all of the bridges are the same. They have a slight curve on the bottom so they can be used on a flat top or slightly domed top.

This means that the wood on top of the tie block and saddle slot can be lowered quite a bit for the strings to be 3-4 mm off the guitar's top, which is drastic but the bridge design is able to get there by shaving off the abundant wood on the tie block and saddle slot.

The other bridge measurements are characteristically enough to adjust to many bridge designs.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 8:35:19

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

Are they different to the ones pictured on your site?

Regardless, if you have to get down to 3 of 4mm string height at the bridge there is something wrong with the design, execution, or post build treatment of the guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 9:05:34

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

A string height of 3-4mm above the top? That's a totally absurd and ridiculous claim. It ain't gonna happen. The strings would be lying on top of the frets and there probably wouldn't be enough meat left in the bridge to hold the strings or support the saddle. A 7.5-8mm height, on a good day, is more like it.
Then again though, there are those here who claim to have those magical guitars with 12th fret actions of 1.5mm for the sixth string that don't buzz.

People really should think before they make such preposterous statements.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 10:00:08

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

What about the versatility of the bridge do you guys not understand. I install my bridges to accommodate about 7 to 8 mm off the top but the bridge design can be cut down to more than needed to lower the action rather than doing fingerboard work to fix the problem of the finger board pulling up.

When and if the board pulls up, then go and take off wood from the top of the bridge to lower the action. I would have to replace a tie block design but that is fairly easy compared to having to re-do a board with a slight curve.

I think Reyes may have had this in mind with the 2003.

Come to think of it, you could leave the tie block and just lower the wood on the saddle slot.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 13:28:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
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RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Charles, read my posts carefully.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 13:34:23

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I did and I still say that a string height of 3-4mm above the soundboard simply will not work. Period.
Neck angle or whatever not withstanding, the thickness of the fingerboard at the soundhole and the height of the frets (another 1mm or so) added to it are enough to show that it just isn't possible.
Plus, making a bridge that low would really be treading on thin ice insofar as material strength is concerned. The lowest functional (just barely) flamenco bridge I've ever encountered was about 5mm high (not including the saddle height) and even this was right on the brink of being unusable. The bridge did not appear to have ever been cut down. It also had a rather thin fingerboard. The guitar was a Marcelino Lopez from the early 1960s.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 13:45:28

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

I did and I still say that a string height of 3-4mm above the soundboard simply will not work. Period.

A bulging soundboard and neck that has pulled up (or overdeflected) could require a string height of 3-4 mm above the top at the bridge to be playable; however it's certainly not desirable and would feel weird.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 14:02:34

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing here?
Either i am misunderstanding something or ....

3-4mm above the soundboard? thats almost 50% less than what it should be for an "optimal" setup, no?

Thats what i would call a good setup

- around 7 - 8 mm above the soundboard at the bridge
- around 8 - 9 mm at the soundhole
- around 3 mm - 6th string above the 12th fret
- some bone left to lower a little bit if necessary

no?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 14:08:25

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

It's not normal for a hand builder to have that much variation in the setup. There is some variability, maybe + or - .5 or 1mm in string height at the bridge from guitar to guitar with a given action.
It's pretty standard with a lot of factory guitars though. Most commonly action too high and no room to lower it.

String height at the bridge does affect torque on the top, which affects how you brace the top with regards to stiffness, which affects the sound.
It's pretty small differences but flamenco tops generally need to be a little thinner than classical tops, which goes into the flamenco sound.

Thanks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 14:10:44

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

A bulging soundboard and neck that has pulled up (or overdeflected) could require a string height of 3-4 mm above the top at the bridge to be playable; however it's certainly not desirable and would feel weird.

I was under the impression that we were discussing new construction here.
Guitars with pulled-up necks, bulging tops, etc. present a whole 'nuther set of problems.
For good quality older guitars with action and/or string height problems there are other, though perhaps more extreme, methods of dealing with them. The problems the individual guitar may have and the owner's preferences will determine if it will be worth the effort and expense.
For the typical factory guitar with similar problems one might well be better off just getting another one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 14:13:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hey John,

You guys are still not getting it. I said the bridge could be lowered due to its design, not that it should be lowered past certain points.

In other words, there are limits to what we do with the action. But this bridge has plenty of room to be adjusted down, to a reasonable height, if it is needed, rather than doing expensive work on the finger- board.

The bridge starts with being a near perfect size, something like the Reyes style, and can be adjusted down as needed.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 14:48:39

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing here?
Either i am misunderstanding something or ....

3-4mm above the soundboard? thats almost 50% less than what it should be for an "optimal" setup, no?

Thats what i would call a good setup

- around 7 - 8 mm above the soundboard at the bridge
- around 8 - 9 mm at the soundhole
- around 3 mm - 6th string above the 12th fret
- some bone left to lower a little bit if necessary

no?

Your measurement requirements are good, and this bridge design provides that, but can be adjusted to accommodate a higher or lower action. How many times have you seen a bridge that can't be lowered due to the board curving or some other wood movement? This bridge is supposed to rectify that, with a little alteration on the bridge rather than fingerboard work.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 15:03:25

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

I was under the impression that we were discussing new construction here.
Guitars with pulled-up necks, bulging tops, etc. present a whole 'nuther set of problems.

Point well taken Mr. Vega.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 18:23:01

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

I was just looking at the bridges that Tom is selling and I fail to see any significant difference between these and the pre-made bridges offered by LMI. The LMI bridges are also machine made in rosewood and are available with a slanted or straight saddle slot and with or without pre-drilled string holes. They also have a trough between the tie block and the saddle lip.
The main difference I can see is that the LMI bridges sell for $16.30 ea. or $14.50 ea. if you buy three or more. Tom's sell for $65.00 each.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 19:10:30

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

I was just looking at the bridges that Tom is selling and I fail to see any significant difference between these and the pre-made bridges offered by LMI. The LMI bridges are also machine made in rosewood and are available with a slanted or straight saddle slot and with or without pre-drilled string holes. They also have a trough between the tie block and the saddle lip.
The main difference I can see is that Tom's are $65.00 each and LMI's are $16.30 ea. or $14.50 ea. if you buy three or more.

For chance that you are not seeing my bridge style very clearly, Chris at LMI is interested in checking the bridge style out. The amount of work that goes into making these bridges raises my cost above Chris's retail.

And if you are referring to the http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-wood/bridges-pins/pre-made-wood-bridges/146-bridge-indian-rw-classical-compensated/flypage-noimage

......bridge that LMI sells for $16.30 ... then you are way off the mark since there is no way you can fit it to a Reyes or Rodriguez size, plus the measurements are way off from my advertised bridge style. http://tomblackshearguitarbuilder.weebly.com/price-list-rosettes--bridges.html

You can't be serious :-)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 19:29:23